TG-T3 Advice Wanted

[SuperSport]

6 minutes ago, Jez_Fila said:

Yep. Charger is putting out 68v. My old battery wont charge beyond 61v. This one peaked at 62.8v which is far less than the 67.4 it should have at full charge. 

What other tests can I run? I am not taking it apart until BG tell me what they want to do about it. Curious if a shunt would help as the behaviour is similar to what happens when it used to have a cut off before i put the shunt into the old battery. 

Yeah, I'm with you.  I would not tear it apart until BangGood either makes it right or not.  I did notice that my replacement battery came directly from TeamGee and not BangGood, so I'm guessing BangGood doesn't have the ability to confirm quality before it's drop shipped.

That's definitely a bummer.  All you want to do is ride!  Maybe confirm if possible that the wires are coming out with the correct colors off the correct terminals similar to the old battery.  Not sure if you can without damaging the cover though.

[Jez_Fila]

16 minutes ago, SuperSport said:

Yeah, I'm with you.  I would not tear it apart until BangGood either makes it right or not.  I did notice that my replacement battery came directly from TeamGee and not BangGood, so I'm guessing BangGood doesn't have the ability to confirm quality before it's drop shipped.

That's definitely a bummer.  All you want to do is ride!  Maybe confirm if possible that the wires are coming out with the correct colors off the correct terminals similar to the old battery.  Not sure if you can without damaging the cover though.

Yeah I tested it all witha multimeter and it looked fine. 

It would seem the BMS cuts it off. I sent a message to BG and hopefully they reply soon.

[Jimicycle]

Hi jex_Fila,

It seems you get a fault battery pack. One way to check it is to measure the voltage of the big connector (the yellow one) when you turn on the EU. I guess it will drop bellow 48v. You control PCB seems ok, it sensed extra low voltage, flashed the LED and shut down the EU.

BTW, almost all BMS has a diode in charging circuit to prevent the short of charging plug. In order to fully charge a battery, a charger should have a output voltage of 4.2V*16+0.6V = 67.8V. 

BMS does not balance the voltages during working, it works during charging. Most BMSs of inexpensive battery packs work with bypassing method. It bypasses the batteries first reach 4.2V and continuously charges rest of batteries. The bypass current, depends on BMS, is about 100mA. If batteries are too far away from balance,  when total charge current is below the cutoff threshold, the balance charging stops; leaving the weak batteries under charged.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jez_Fila]

2 minutes ago, Jimicyle said:

Hi jex_Fila,

It seems you get a fault battery pack. One way to check it is to measure the voltage of the big connector (the yellow one) when you turn on the EU. I guess it will drop bellow 48v. You control PCB seems ok, it sensed extra low voltage, flashed the LED and shut down the EU.

BTW, almost all BMS has a diode in charging circuit to prevent the short of charging plug. In order to fully charge a battery, a charger should have a output voltage of 4.2V*16+0.6V = 67.8V.

BMS does not balance the voltages during working, it works during charging. Most BMSs of inexpensive battery packs work with bypassing method. It bypasses the batteries first reach 4.2V and continuously charges rest of batteries. The bypass current, depends on BMS, is about 100mA. If batteries are too far away from balance,  when total charge current is below the cutoff threshold, the balance charging stops; leaving the weak batteries under charged.

 

 

 

 

 

The battery back voltage was 62.7v so it should have been fine to operate the EU. My old battery had 58v  left in it and worked fine. 

when you say the big connector you mean on the PCB? So I would disconnect the wires from the wheel to test this? there are three wires, can you be more specific which ones i need to measure with?

 

[SuperSport]

11 minutes ago, Jimicyle said:

In order to fully charge a battery, a charger should have a output voltage of 4.2V*16+0.6V = 67.8V.

I didn't know this.  So, I should crank up the Charger Voltage?  I'm at 67.2 now.

@Jez_Fila  I'm guessing he means the large connector between the battery and Wheel.  Check that voltage before turning on the wheel and after turning on the wheel.  When the wheel kicks on, he's thinking the voltage will have a large drop.

[Jimicycle]

I mean the yellow one between the battery and the PCB. The wire side connector has shrunk tubing isolated. If push hard enough and you probes of the multimeter have sharp points, you can pierce through and get the voltage. I guess the once you turn on the switch, the voltage will drop dramatically. 

BG usually replaces faulty items if you give them a short video of your measurement.

[Jimicycle]

SuperSport,

Since you already opened your old pack, you may want recondition it with a single cell lipo charger like this: 

http://www.banggood.com/3_7V-Lipo-Battery-USB-charger-with-2-to-5-Balance-Charging-Cable-p-917256.html

Charge weak batteries to 4.2V one by one. Depends on how weak the battery is, this charger (400 mA?) may take a while to charge it. 

 

 

[SuperSport]

3 hours ago, Jimicyle said:

SuperSport,

Since you already opened your old pack, you may want recondition it with a single cell lipo charger like this: 

http://www.banggood.com/3_7V-Lipo-Battery-USB-charger-with-2-to-5-Balance-Charging-Cable-p-917256.html

Charge weak batteries to 4.2V one by one. Depends on how weak the battery is, this charger (400 mA?) may take a while to charge it. 

 

 

Yeah, I've got this charger that I plan to make up alligator clips so I can charge each cell.  Just have not gotten to it yet.  Been too busy riding the NineBot.  After riding the TG F3 today, I can really appreciate the NineBot.  The TG is still very fun, but different.

[Jez_Fila]

Here is something new. When I plug up the new battery after full charge BUT BEFORE TURNING IT ON, it has around 62.5v tested with the multimeter. 

Then I switch the EUC on, the leds flash and it makes the dying beep sound. I unplug the batter and test it and it has 0.1v. 

I then wait a little and its back to 62.5v .

My guess is that its a bad BMS. And to top it off the cells seem to be a bit dodgy also given they cant charge to 67V. 

[SuperSport]

Maybe a bad solder connection somewhere?  Possibly even between cells?

[Jez_Fila]

So I bought a new controller board. 

Plugged it up and the the battery started smoking unplugged quickly and tested the battery. Some of plastic around the edges started melting. 

No idea what I did wrong. One thing that I noticed was that the connectors for the power button were inverted. Red to black and black to red. Could this be the cause?

Is there a safe way to test the board without causing a lithium battery fire?

 

[SuperSport]

5 hours ago, Jez_Fila said:

So I bought a new controller board. 

Plugged it up and the the battery started smoking unplugged quickly and tested the battery. Some of plastic around the edges started melting. 

No idea what I did wrong. One thing that I noticed was that the connectors for the power button were inverted. Red to black and black to red. Could this be the cause?

Is there a safe way to test the board without causing a lithium battery fire?

 

Did you try it with the Old Battery to be sure it was not the Board that caused the first issue?

At this point, I would treat the new mother board as possibly compromised too.  That's a lot of voltage to have gone wrong.

Doesn't the Power Button plug directly to the Mother Board?  On mine, Both the Power Switch and the Switch LED are plugged directly into the Mother Board.  No Black Red Crossing Issues possible.

I cannot imagine any of the wires should be plugged backwards Red/Black, Black/Red.  Do you mean the wires from the battery?  Those Definitely should not be backwards!

EDIT:  As mentioned, be SUPER Careful about fire...  Maybe do further testing outside, or have someone qualified for this work to take a look at it.

These are a bit grainy, but maybe they can help with wire placement:

https://youtu.be/CbhOZBGY2Rw

https://youtu.be/zgEpK24TqSE  - You MIGHT need this one after board replacement to balance your wheel again.

Just Pulled mine apart and labeled wires for you.

[Jimicycle]

On 12/18/2015 at 11:35 PM, SuperSport said:

Yeah, I've got this charger that I plan to make up alligator clips so I can charge each cell.  Just have not gotten to it yet.  Been too busy riding the NineBot.  After riding the TG F3 today, I can really appreciate the NineBot.  The TG is still very fun, but different.

SuperSport

I'd like to hear your battery recondition story. Please update. 

Thanks 

[SuperSport]

33 minutes ago, Jimicycle said:

SuperSport

I'd like to hear your battery recondition story. Please update. 

Thanks 

I decided to not take a chance with that charger and ended up buying a real one (took a few days to arrive).  I'm still in the process of charging each cell.  I'm about 1/3 of the way through.  I'm finding BIG differences in their voltages.  From 3.5 to 4.2 volts.  I'm taking everything to 4.1v.   Will report back when finished.  Curious to see if the Unicycle will charge it evenly after this.

I believe my cells are 2200mAh (maybe 4400), so I'm only using 1.0A to be sure I get a nice slow SAFE even charge.

[joelren2k]

On 11/25/2015 at 4:07 PM, Jurgen said:

I have mine at 4bar (58psi) at 100Kg

it's harder and more nervous to ride and has less grip on loose underground

but you have more control when pushing hard and riding of sidewalks, faster reaction times

if you're a newby I would go for around 3 bar

men, have you ridden TG for more than 30mins?  i am just curious coz in their website, they are limiting the time to ride the EUC to 30mins to cool down the circuit and prevent over heating.  is this true?

[SuperSport]

28 minutes ago, joelren2k said:

men, have you ridden TG for more than 30mins?  i am just curious coz in their website, they are limiting the time to ride the EUC to 30mins to cool down the circuit and prevent over heating.  is this true?

I have ridden over an hour with no problems. But I'm riding in 50°F or less.  Also very little stop and go, just moving along.

PS:  Mine is the F3 with a larger battery. 

[joelren2k]

On 12/28/2015 at 2:17 PM, SuperSport said:

I have ridden over an hour with no problems. But I'm riding in 50°F or less.  Also very little stop and go, just moving along.

PS:  Mine is the F3 with a larger battery. 

Yah I like the F3 as well thx. Btw how's the ride of that?

[SuperSport]

2 hours ago, joelren2k said:

Yah I like the F3 as well thx. Btw how's the ride of that?

Compared to the NineBot, it's kinda Sporty.  It's not as quick, but it handles very nimbly.  I can turn it in almost it's own tire footprint where the NineBot I've got down to about a 1 1/2 - 2' circle.  The NineBot is more comfortable on the legs and feet though.  I always compare them as a Mini Cooper and Jaguar.  Sporty/Fun/Nimble and Fast/Comfortable/Sexy.

[joelren2k]

12 hours ago, SuperSport said:

Compared to the NineBot, it's kinda Sporty.  It's not as quick, but it handles very nimbly.  I can turn it in almost it's own tire footprint where the NineBot I've got down to about a 1 1/2 - 2' circle.  The NineBot is more comfortable on the legs and feet though.  I always compare them as a Mini Cooper and Jaguar.  Sporty/Fun/Nimble and Fast/Comfortable/Sexy.

nice, btw what is the range on a single charge and have you tested its fastest speed?

[Jez_Fila]

Just to Update, Banggood agreed to replace the battery after a wile and consulting their technicians. This is great as I was reluctant to open up the battery and see for myself.

Just to remind what the problem was: as soon as the battery was connected to the EUC it would flash for a second and die. The behavior showed that the power from the battery was there beforehand, and after the shutdown happens it went to 0V and then after a while back to ~62V.

So now that I am guaranteed a new battery I opened up my existing one and the first thing I noticed that it didnt look like any of the other BMS systems shown. I shunted it anyway observing the labeling by running some solder between two points. 

One I did this the batter worked. Huge difference from my 132 battery which was rubbish. This one (174) lasts me at least 5-6 KM on a chage even though it doesnt charge upto 67.2V as it should . Perhaps the new one will work, who knows. 

First thing that I notice now is that I no longer have range anxiety now and the EUC suits it purpose. I am riding it harder so the next thing that I am noticing is that it starts beeping at top speed. I don't mind the beeping so much (yet) but I know that its will get annoying with time. It would be nice if I could get it up to 18kmh without the beep and for tiltback  to start at 18km. 

I guess I will have to wait till the custom firmware is developed so that it can be configured to my needs. 

Thanks All for your help. 

[SuperSport]

On December 29, 2015 at 6:10 AM, joelren2k said:

nice, btw what is the range on a single charge and have you tested its fastest speed?

I don't know how I missed this, sorry. Fastest speed I've ever done was about 10 MPH. It beeps a lot and I'm afraid of being hurt, so only for a moment. 

My last ride on it with the new battery was over 10 miles on a single charge.  The new battery did take a full charge, unlike the original that came with it.

I JUST sold it the other day, so that's all I have to compare. 

[scanboy]

On 1/18/2016 at 6:31 PM, Jez_Fila said:

Just to Update, Banggood agreed to replace the battery after a wile and consulting their technicians. This is great as I was reluctant to open up the battery and see for myself.

Just to remind what the problem was: as soon as the battery was connected to the EUC it would flash for a second and die. The behavior showed that the power from the battery was there beforehand, and after the shutdown happens it went to 0V and then after a while back to ~62V.

So now that I am guaranteed a new battery I opened up my existing one and the first thing I noticed that it didnt look like any of the other BMS systems shown. I shunted it anyway observing the labeling by running some solder between two points. 

One I did this the batter worked. Huge difference from my 132 battery which was rubbish. This one (174) lasts me at least 5-6 KM on a chage even though it doesnt charge upto 67.2V as it should . Perhaps the new one will work, who knows. 

First thing that I notice now is that I no longer have range anxiety now and the EUC suits it purpose. I am riding it harder so the next thing that I am noticing is that it starts beeping at top speed. I don't mind the beeping so much (yet) but I know that its will get annoying with time. It would be nice if I could get it up to 18kmh without the beep and for tiltback  to start at 18km. 

I guess I will have to wait till the custom firmware is developed so that it can be configured to my needs. 

Thanks All for your help. 

Sorry, newbie here, how do you 'shunt' the BMS exactly? I have the same problem, right after pressing power button, the 4 leds flashed once and system turned off. 

[SuperSport]

4 hours ago, scanboy said:

Sorry, newbie here, how do you 'shunt' the BMS exactly? I have the same problem, right after pressing power button, the 4 leds flashed once and system turned off. 

If you are having those same symptoms, doing the Shunt will not fix your issue.  You likely have a bad battery and will need to replace it.  Hopefully your dealer can do that for you.  If you are not familiar with these types of batteries and electronics, it's not suggested to open up the battery pack due to the high levels of energy they contain.  They are very dangerous and can cause a fire easily if handled wrong.

Your issue is probably a bad cell or cells within the battery pack.  If you know someone who knows how to deal with these, they can check the individual cells and replace them if that's the case.

[scanboy]

17 hours ago, SuperSport said:

If you are having those same symptoms, doing the Shunt will not fix your issue.  You likely have a bad battery and will need to replace it.  Hopefully your dealer can do that for you.  If you are not familiar with these types of batteries and electronics, it's not suggested to open up the battery pack due to the high levels of energy they contain.  They are very dangerous and can cause a fire easily if handled wrong.

Your issue is probably a bad cell or cells within the battery pack.  If you know someone who knows how to deal with these, they can check the individual cells and replace them if that's the case.

Thanks for the reply. I would love to just get another pack and be done with it, but the thing is, my TG is fairly new (less than half a year old), if the battery is already bad, I'm afraid even if I buy another pack, it will just turn out like the original one I have, i.e. dead within couple of months. I am no expert in "battery" area, but would like to learn more. I've actually disassembled the battery pack and learning as I go. I did some of the things that ppl have suggested in this thread, checking individual battery, replaced bad ones, but I've done this too many times, and just right after replacing one, another one turned bad after using it once (charging and discharging). What I have now is a newly assembled battery pack with all new 18650 (all 16 of them), given that, the problem still happens, was just wondering if there's an issue with the BMS. When I saw Jez's shunting worked for his old battery, was wondering if I could try that out, hence the question.

How do I 'shunt' and what exactly does it do to BMS/battery pack? This may not fix my issue, but would love to know more about it.

[SuperSport]

6 hours ago, scanboy said:

Thanks for the reply. I would love to just get another pack and be done with it, but the thing is, my TG is fairly new (less than half a year old), if the battery is already bad, I'm afraid even if I buy another pack, it will just turn out like the original one I have, i.e. dead within couple of months. I am no expert in "battery" area, but would like to learn more. I've actually disassembled the battery pack and learning as I go. I did some of the things that ppl have suggested in this thread, checking individual battery, replaced bad ones, but I've done this too many times, and just right after replacing one, another one turned bad after using it once (charging and discharging). What I have now is a newly assembled battery pack with all new 18650 (all 16 of them), given that, the problem still happens, was just wondering if there's an issue with the BMS. When I saw Jez's shunting worked for his old battery, was wondering if I could try that out, hence the question.

How do I 'shunt' and what exactly does it do to BMS/battery pack? This may not fix my issue, but would love to know more about it.

I'm NOT an expert at these batteries, but there are different ways of shunting different packs.  You basically short across one of the Mosfetts.   There are photos on the forum showing different packs and where to short.

My understanding is that doing the Shunt prevents the BMS from shutting off the power to the wheel in the case of over powering (Leaning Forward too Hard, Climbing too Hard, Low Battery, etc..), but I'm not sure how that would help your issue.

Again, I'm NOT a battery guy, so maybe someone else will chime in with a better answer.

I also had a TG that had a bad pack when brand new.  They sent a replacement, and it was good, but I only owned it for a few weeks, so not sure how long it lasted.