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Unventor

What 360 to recommend in summer 2020?

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Posted (edited)

I am about to jump into the 360 cameras. The silly things is I should know this stuff. But I don't. I simply don't have access to any of these. 

I have a Sony FDX-3000r but I never really got much filming done. Main reason had to do with riding with delph stick and being focus on riding while maintaining a video in right frame of focus/object. 

So I am keen to see what community would recommend and why. I do find the Insta360x one R twin package intriguing.it might not be best in class, but it serves multiple purposes like a jack of all trades. 

Thanks in advance for you input.

Note: so @Marty Backe if your Insta360 one x had been fatal damaged in your crash, what would you have bought as replacement? 

Edited by Unventor

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4 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I am about to jump into the 360 cameras. The silly things is I should know this stuff. But I don't. I simply don't have access to any of these. 

I have a Sony FDX-3000r but I never really got much filming done. Main reason had to do with riding with delph stick and being focus on riding while maintaining a video in right frame of focus/object. 

So I am keen to see what community would recommend and why. I do find the Insta360x one R twin package intriguing.it might not be best in class, but it serves multiple purposes like a jack of all trades. 

Thanks in advance for you input.

Note: so @Marty Backe if your Insta360 one x had been fatal damaged in your crash, what would you have bought as replacement? 

Although the X was scratched, for most of my framing you can't see anything. I'm still about to pull the trigger on another X because I want to have a backup. It appears that the X can now only be bought direct from the manufacturer, so it may totally go away soon and I'd be "stuck" with the R.

I don't like the R because changing batteries takes a lot more work and extra batteries cost a lot more than the X batteries. And the R is a heavier camera. That won't work so well for me since I hang it off the end of a 9-foot pole. The X is a thinner camera too.

YMMV.

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I got you Marty. I don't plan to use any long stick myself. 

I understand that your camera has a smoother stitching line between the 2 lenses.

I don't like the fish eye distortion of 360 but I will have to accept this compared to making framing easier in being able to reposition it in post. 

Plan is to get this ready for my V11. So I have to make a fast decision....and to have a few practice runs too.it means I need the gear within a week or so.

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Posted (edited)

Gopro max makes a decent camera as well. I can't compare them, as it's the only 360 I've had. It isnt without its little quirks, but its an option. I ordered the instaR, but ran into supply and availability shortages. I wound up with the max. Of course, Im usa based and I have NO IDEA what gopro support is elsewhere. I like it, but it also needs careful handling/crashing as these damn lenses stick right out there. I've found the max in cam audio to be superb.

Edited by ShanesPlanet

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Posted (edited)

GoPro Max if you only want 360. It has the best stabilization and very decent built in microphones. It is the only "cheap" 360 camera that allows you to do 360 audio and it is pretty water resistant even without external enclosures. Insta360 One R if you want an all-around action / 360 camera. It's modularity also makes it a bit more versatile / future proof. It also has better slow motion support and a better app for editing on a smartphone. Resolution wise it can record at a slightly higher than the Max - 5.7k vs 5.6k on the GoPro max. Image quality wise, this will depend if you are going to do any post-processing. I believe the max is slightly better for post due to the availability of a flat profile.

Edited by davinche

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, davinche said:

GoPro Max if you only want 360. It has the best stabilization and very decent built in microphones. It is the only "cheap" 360 camera that allows you to do 360 audio and it is pretty water resistant even without external enclosures. Insta360 One R if you want an all-around action / 360 camera. It's modularity also makes it a bit more versatile / future proof. It also has better slow motion support and a better app for editing on a smartphone. Resolution wise it can record at a slightly higher than the Max - 5.7k vs 5.6k on the GoPro max. Image quality wise, this will depend if you are going to do any post-processing. I believe the max is slightly better for post due to the availability of a flat profile.

I agree.. The max is a great 360 cam, but they made damn sure it isnt as good an image as you can get in their hero 7/8 series. If i KNOW what I am filming, I'd go for the hero or standard cams. The gopro does hero mode, but its just missing something the standard cams have. I only edit on a computer, so I dont know about apps. Gopro also tracks telemetry, but i  prefer using eucw for the heads up display. On basic selfie stick rides, the 360 way of post editing angles is a no brainer. All my gopros have good voice command, only rarely do I say something and they overhear me and react unintentionally. Dont say 'Stop and go" or it will, lol. If i was more a person to plan shots or video others, I'd probably not use a 360 at all. Theres some great cams for cheap out there that do better than these expensive 360 cams, with less processing and better end result. You are paying a premium for that 360 shot. Fwiw, Max resolution from 360 cropped to 2d, winds up being 1080p at final. Still waiting on a windows stitcher that takes advantage of its higher recording resolution.

Edited by ShanesPlanet

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26 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I agree.. The max is a great 360 cam, but they made damn sure it isnt as good an image as you can get in their hero 7/8 series. If i KNOW what I am filming, I'd go for the hero or standard cams. The gopro does hero mode, but its just missing something the standard cams have. I only edit on a computer, so I dont know about apps. Gopro also tracks telemetry, but i  prefer using eucw for the heads up display. On basic selfie stick rides, the 360 way of post editing angles is a no brainer. All my gopros have good voice command, only rarely do I say something and they overhear me and react unintentionally. Dont say 'Stop and go" or it will, lol. If i was more a person to plan shots or video others, I'd probably not use a 360 at all. Theres some great cams for cheap out there that do better than these expensive 360 cams, with less processing and better end result. You are paying a premium for that 360 shot. Fwiw, Max resolution from 360 cropped to 2d, winds up being 1080p at final. Still waiting on a windows stitcher that takes advantage of its higher recording resolution.

Well like you said, a Hero8 captures 4k whereas the Max captures 5.6k at 360. Once you frame the 360 to what you want to show, you effectively end up with is something between 720p and 1080p... so image quality on the Hero8 is always going to be better. However, a 360 camera makes for a pretty good vlogging setup because you capture yourself and everything else around you. No more "missing the shot" because your camera wasn't ready. And of course, the "fake drone" footage is pretty neat.

I think the trickiest thing with 360 footage is editing them. Most people do it with apps (albeit at a much lower quality), so the insta360 wins in that department. If you want to edit 360 footage to export at its highest resolution, you're going to need adobe premier or the studio version of Davinci Resolve.

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Unfortunately the max 360 exporter is only allowing me to stitch at 4k on windows atm. The camera captures 5.6k, but once It runs thru that, Im down to 4k. Then once cropped to 2d, Im basically down to 1080p. I would assume that the max COULD capture in as high definition as a hero on standard mode, but if they allowed it to, it would undermine the need for both. Something magic about the quality of the non 360 cam. I use powerdirector for editing. I couldnt even fathom trying to do it on single screen devices. 360 video is a LOT of data for sure.

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3 hours ago, Unventor said:

I got you Marty. I don't plan to use any long stick myself. 

I understand that your camera has a smoother stitching line between the 2 lenses.

I don't like the fish eye distortion of 360 but I will have to accept this compared to making framing easier in being able to reposition it in post. 

Plan is to get this ready for my V11. So I have to make a fast decision....and to have a few practice runs too.it means I need the gear within a week or so.

I like to think my videos don't have a lot of fish eye distortion. The secret to that is to maintain the z-axis (direction of travel) center frame and don't add any positive or negative tilt angle. This can be accomplished with proper 360 editing techniques. Most people don't do this and therefore all of their horizon lines are curved, etc. Oh, and the farther that you can keep the camera from you, the less fish eye effect will be seen. Thus the 9-foot pole.

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59 minutes ago, davinche said:

Well like you said, a Hero8 captures 4k whereas the Max captures 5.6k at 360. Once you frame the 360 to what you want to show, you effectively end up with is something between 720p and 1080p... so image quality on the Hero8 is always going to be better. However, a 360 camera makes for a pretty good vlogging setup because you capture yourself and everything else around you. No more "missing the shot" because your camera wasn't ready. And of course, the "fake drone" footage is pretty neat.

I think the trickiest thing with 360 footage is editing them. Most people do it with apps (albeit at a much lower quality), so the insta360 wins in that department. If you want to edit 360 footage to export at its highest resolution, you're going to need adobe premier or the studio version of Davinci Resolve.

I do all my editing with desktop software. Once you understand how to use it all, the process is efficient and you have much better control over the framing than what can be achieved with the phone app.

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Posted (edited)

I already have a fair 4k "standard" camera. I am leaning towards the insta360 one x R as mixing footage from same brand often goes easier. I could see me using the Sony cam as a wheel view cam (pip) and the 360 as bigger picture. And the 4k insta360 module for slow motion shots.

There is just something about GoPros that makes me steer clear of these. 

I used davincy resolve a bit in the past. But I am not really streamlined yet in post editing. I  know some stuff due to my work. But knowing things and be able to do it is 2 different things. I guess my benefit is I know what the basics do in the camera and a little about lighting and colouring.

So I have a bit of work to do to get ready to do some V11 content.

Note: I really appreciate all of your inputs. It is all going into the stirring pot of chilli beans of decision making. A pinch of salt and a twist of pepper...secret recipe 😉.

 

Edited by Unventor

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I do all my editing with desktop software. Once you understand how to use it all, the process is efficient and you have much better control over the framing than what can be achieved with the phone app.

Yeah I agree. But you also need a pretty beefy computer. For most people who only want to share their 360 videos on facebook/instagram, the video from the smartphone apps are probably fine, but if you want anything high quality then post processing on a desktop is a must.


What desktop software do you use?

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I already have a fair 4k "standard" camera. I am leaning towards the insta360 one x R as mixing footage from same brand often goes easier. I could see me using the Sony cam as a wheel view cam (pip) and the 360 as bigger picture. And the 4k insta360 module for slow motion shots.

There is just something about GoPros that makes me steer clear of these. 

I used davincy resolve a bit in the past. But I am not really streamlined yet in post editing. I  know some stuff due to my work. But knowing things and be able to do it is 2 different things. I guess my benefit is I know what the basics do in the camera and a little about lighting and colouring.

So I have a bit of work to do to get ready to do some V11 content.

Note: I really appreciate all of your inputs. It is all going into the stirring pot of chilli beans of decision making. A pinch of salt and a twist of pepper...secret recipe 😉.

 

Just remember that davinci resolve (free version) caps your projects at 4K, so you can't really take advantage of the 5.6-5.7k resolution footage you capture. You'll have to upgrade to Davinci Resolve Studio to edit at higher resolutions. GoPros are fantastic, but they're just kinda slow on releasing software / updates. I went with the Max because it is more rugged than the Insta360s. Marty's on his 3rd or 4th One X 😆?

Edited by davinche

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12 minutes ago, davinche said:

Just remember that davinci resolve (free version) caps your projects at 4K, so you can't really take advantage of the 5.6-5.7k resolution footage you capture. You'll have to upgrade to Davinci Resolve Studio to edit at higher resolutions. GoPros are fantastic, but they're just kinda slow on releasing software / updates. I went with the Max because it is more rugged than the Insta360s. Marty's on his 3rd or 4th One X 😆?

I am amazed at how much processing power it takes me to make simple video. I use multi monitors and a pretty mean video card to help. I cant fathom how a small hand held device could work for me.

In the defense of the insta in marty's case...  glass is glass and last spill I saw him take, I dont think the max would have faired any better. Of course, gopro in the states offers $5mo insurance. Maybe a scam, maybe not.

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2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I do all my editing with desktop software. Once you understand how to use it all, the process is efficient and you have much better control over the framing than what can be achieved with the phone app.

What software do you use Marty? 

do you edit it with the insta software first ,i didn't like it so i do everything on my ipad

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@Unventor the insta 360x is a great camera very light to you might even able to pick it up cheaper now

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40 minutes ago, stephen said:

What software do you use Marty? 

do you edit it with the insta software first ,i didn't like it so i do everything on my ipad

 

1 hour ago, davinche said:

Yeah I agree. But you also need a pretty beefy computer. For most people who only want to share their 360 videos on facebook/instagram, the video from the smartphone apps are probably fine, but if you want anything high quality then post processing on a desktop is a must.


What desktop software do you use?

I'm using Windows on a Dell XPS 8900 desktop with 32GB of RAM and a 4GHz 4-core CPU.

I use the Insta 360 Desktop add for all the framing. It took many months to learn all the tricks and configuration settings to make it do what I want easily. It's also important that you understand how to orient the camera to make all this work in your favor and save countless hours of unnecessary editing. For instance, did you know that if you keep the camera orientation relative to your body constant, and use "Lock" on the Desktop app, you do not have to manually frame the shot during your ride? It will auto-track your body regardless of the direction that you ride throughout the shot.

I could give a course :D

I shoot in Log (raw) format so I can better color grade the video in post. I use Adobe Premiere for editing the footage generated by the Insta 360 Desktop app.

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1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I am amazed at how much processing power it takes me to make simple video. I use multi monitors and a pretty mean video card to help. I cant fathom how a small hand held device could work for me.

In the defense of the insta in marty's case...  glass is glass and last spill I saw him take, I dont think the max would have faired any better. Of course, gopro in the states offers $5mo insurance. Maybe a scam, maybe not.

This is why I ran away from the GoPro route. Their software is notorious for being very slow. This cannot be understated.

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3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

For instance, did you know that if you keep the camera orientation relative to your body constant, and use "Lock" on the Desktop app, you do not have to manually frame the shot during your ride? It will auto-track your body regardless of the direction that you ride throughout the shot.

Thx for the tip i didn't know that 👍 i have a high end pc I'll have to try edit one again,, whens the idiot proof course start 😁

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Well this is great to see debate between famous riders on how they iterated to the gear they use. Thanks...it gives me an idea of what to do. 

I "had" a super insane high spec pc back in the days. But now it is a bit outdated CPU-wise. I7 but with 64gb ram and 2 samsung nvme ssd 512GB + a standard 240gb ata SSD.

It took very long time to process 4k so I  am properly going to reframe it to fullhd and edit from there. Maybe some drive by 4k shots in slow motion. That is why I lean towards the Insta360x R twin. 

Should I get into making many YouTube things then I will have to update my pc too. So goal is to make good fullhd. 

The money just seems to fly out of pocket this year. New Tsg pass carbon help. Klim goretex mc suit and now a V11 and possible camera upgrade. And if the summer heat continues I need new knee pads too. 

But what can you do? It is a lifestyle and this change my quality of life massive to the better. 

From what I gather @Marty Backe the workflow is so much simpler with insta360x R compared to the insta360x.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

I'm using Windows on a Dell XPS 8900 desktop with 32GB of RAM and a 4GHz 4-core CPU.

I use the Insta 360 Desktop add for all the framing. It took many months to learn all the tricks and configuration settings to make it do what I want easily. It's also important that you understand how to orient the camera to make all this work in your favor and save countless hours of unnecessary editing. For instance, did you know that if you keep the camera orientation relative to your body constant, and use "Lock" on the Desktop app, you do not have to manually frame the shot during your ride? It will auto-track your body regardless of the direction that you ride throughout the shot.

I could give a course :D

I shoot in Log (raw) format so I can better color grade the video in post. I use Adobe Premiere for editing the footage generated by the Insta 360 Desktop app.

My gopro exporter has this option of 'world lock'. Its quite interesting, as it keeps the camera focused on the same direction no matter how you turn it. If I export with 'world lock', it gives me a floating look with a view that only changes if i do so in the editing. First time i tried it, it was a nightmare, as every turn I made, I had to go into the editor and frame the turns. My editting software also has a 'track' ability that also lets you choose an object in frame and it will stay focused on that object until you tell it not to.  The software I use to do editting is what kicks the shit out of my computer, I dont really think it has much to do with which camera. I think the pc resources are more dependant on the amount of data and what kind of video. I do notice that the more 3d effects and color adjustments I do in the software, the harder it is on my cpu. intel i-7 ivy quad 4.0ghz   32gb ram   nvidia gforce gtx1660ti   and a 6 pack of ssd's, windows 10/64

Edited by ShanesPlanet

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32 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

My gopro exporter has this option of 'world lock'. Its quite interesting, as it keeps the camera focused on the same direction no matter how you turn it. If I export with 'world lock', it gives me a floating look with a view that only changes if i do so in the editing. First time i tried it, it was a nightmare, as every turn I made, I had to go into the editor and frame the turns. My editting software also has a 'track' ability that also lets you choose an object in frame and it will stay focused on that object until you tell it not to.  The software I use to do editting is what kicks the shit out of my computer, I dont really think it has much to do with which camera. I think the pc resources are more dependant on the amount of data and what kind of video. I do notice that the more 3d effects and color adjustments I do in the software, the harder it is on my cpu. intel i-7 ivy quad 4.0ghz   32gb ram   nvidia gforce gtx1660ti   and a 6 pack of ssd's, windows 10/64

Insta 360 calls it "Lock Direction" which is much more useful than your "World Lock" for EUC videos. Insta also has your "track object" capability, but it's not nearly as good as the "lock direction" functionality.

If GoPro doesn't have a "lock direction" function that would be enough to keep me from ever buying one. Editing just takes too much time as it is.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Insta 360 calls it "Lock Direction" which is much more useful than your "World Lock" for EUC videos. Insta also has your "track object" capability, but it's not nearly as good as the "lock direction" functionality.

If GoPro doesn't have a "lock direction" function that would be enough to keep me from ever buying one. Editing just takes too much time as it is.

That's why I was saying Insta360 has the "app" advantage: both desktop and mobile apps are way better than what GoPro has. But if you're willing to edit in (After effects? Premier Pro?), then it doesn't really matter which camera you use because GoPro has the reframe plugin that works for both the Max and the Insta360 videos, and gives you a lot more control on reframing.

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21 hours ago, Unventor said:

So I am keen to see what community would recommend and why.

There are pros dan cons:

Insta360 ONE R

  • Best post editing app and software
  • Good quality video/audio/stabilization
  • Waterproof
  • Average battery
  • Average design - Slightly bigger/bulkier compare to others
  • Touch screen not too responsive

GoPro Max

  • Best quality video/audio/stabilization especially for low light environment
  • Good post editing app
  • Waterproof
  • Good design - Slim with nice responsive touch screen
  • Average desktop software

Ricoh Theta Z1

  • Best quality photo with many manual control modes and Lightroom plugin
  • Slim design
  • No touch screen control
  • Average quality video with limited storage memory

Qoocam 8K

  • Highest resolution you can get for consumer product (8K video and photo, 10 bit color, DNG 8 format)
  • 64GB built-in storage memory - expandable up to 256GB
  • Requires powerful desktop for post editing software
  • Average desktop software
  • Overheating problem
  • Worst mobile app

Insta360 ONE X

  • Best design - small slim compact
  • Best for using invisible stick feature
  • Best post editing app and software
  • Good quality video/audio/stabilization
  • Not waterproof
  • No touch screen
  • CHEAPER than ONE R

 

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