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Hello from a new V8F owner


Kai Drange

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13 hours ago, Vellberger said:

Hello,

although it is a gear question, I ask it here, because it is specific to the V8F.

I am choosing gear since a few days now. And I have allready wrist guards, knee protectors and a motorcycle jacket with protectors. And i currently use a bicycle helmet as well, which I want to change in a full face helmet. Since I saw the drivers on youtube wearing such gear I decided to do so as well. Especially as I saw some cut outs. (And by the way, they looked really cool as well.) But now I´m struggling with the vision to drive around like Ironman while I get over taken by an old lady on an e-bike. ^^ In other words: Gear like that make sence on euc rushing 60km/h for sure, but do you think it is a bit overdone to gear up like this on a 35km/h max euc? I guess I am the only guy in my area riding a monowheel. So it would be ok to look some kind of "different", I do anyway ^^. And if there will be others following me starting this hobby, it would perhaps be no misstake to lead in example. And I feel pretty good wearing this things. I´m just not sure if it is too much.

What do you think?

Wouldnt worry about what you look like if it makes you feel safer. Personally I feel ok with non-full face helmet, knee and wrist guards. Thinking to get elbow guards but that ought to do it for me on the V8F. My cruising speed is usually only 20 to max 30kmh which also greatly reduces the chance  of overlooking a bad patch of surface or pothole. V8F is not like the high speed EUC's where scenery flies by so fast that you didn't even see the pothole coming :)

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the lady on the e bike has 2 big wheels, you have 1 small.

When rollerblading also don't go very fast (certainly not 40km/h), yet most people doing that are also "padded up" while getting passed by that same lady on her e-bike.

It's even worse, you could get passed by an 90 year old in a car!

 

Edited by ir_fuel
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13 minutes ago, Chriull said:

I'm dead serious with this statement.

Exactly!

It shall beside warn, intuitively help the rider to stop acceleration/decelerate and not endanger the rider by bringing him out of balance!

As it seems by now tiltback performs within some small speed range. To wildly guess some numbers (as this is just to get the picture, real accurate numbers won't change the system), if set to 35 km/h it goes from 0° pedal tilt at 35 km/h to 10° pedal tilt at 37 km/h.

If one accelerates slowly and comfortable within 5 seconds from 27 km/h to 37 km/h the tiltback kicks in within one second - a great help for the rider! In such a case one gets the starting tiltback and will stop easily the acceleration and never reach the 37 km/h, but "level off" around the 35 km/h and savely drive on - mission accomplished!

If one accelerates twice as hard tiltback kicks fully in within 0.5 seconds - a more severe situation, but should still be very ok to handle.

For four times and higher accelerations the tilt back kicks in in 0.25 seconds and less - developing to catapulting the rider off the wheel or at least dangerously destabilizing him! Then the tiltback is no help anymore but a dangerously, faulty implemented measure!

So how to easily solve this problem - one chooses a time duration instead of a speed intervall to let the tiltback kick in! Staying with the above example one wants full tiltback at 37 km/h and extending from 0° to 10° within a second.

For the "first acceleration" (from 27 to 37km/h within 5 seconds)  nothing will change - tiltback starts at 35 km/h and fully extends within a second at 37 km/h.

With the twice as hard acceleration tiltback will already start at 33 km/h and fully extend within _one_ second again until 37 km/h reached.

With a four times as hard acceleration tiltback already starts at  29 km/h and again extent within _one_ second to full tiltback at 37 km/h.

For higher accelerations tiltback will start quite immedeately and take the time available until 37 km/h.

(If one stops this "higher" accelerations, by this system tiltback will of course stop again and one can comfortably drive up to this 37 km/h!)

No more endagering of the rider by imbalancing/surprising/catapulting him!

The wheel knows the speed values about 100 times a second - getting the accurate acceleration from this is trivial.

Linear extrapolation is early high school math and no rocket science!

Now to the next "problem" - speed is just one variable to determine the safety margin until overlean. Looking at speed alone it is a "bad" indicator. With low burdens (acceleration,incline,etc) at a speed limit the safety margin is still "huge", with higher burdens it gets smaller and smaller! So each wheel with a fixed speed tiltback can be overleaned below this speed limit if one "just" accelerstes hard enough!

The good news is, that KS has found/introduced a new value in their firmware (inverter load, motor output %) that accurately gives a percentage of how near one is at the overlean limit! They afaik implemented the "88% alarm' (4 fast consecutive beeps) by this.

So they could implement tiltback to extent to full pedal tilt reached at such 88% (12% margin left till overlean) within one second. Or whichever values are suitable/usable - or just to be choosen by the rider!

Such a tiltback implementation would be a huge leap forward in warning quality/rider safety!

Sorry, but to this just a big no, as explained above.

Tiltback is badly and unnecessarily dangerous implememted by now!

Disclaimer: My knowledge about tiltback implementations could be a bit outdated, as i do not try and analyze tiltback with every new firmware version and just know other manufacturers implementations by reports here. So i trust that any bigger changes and improvements should come by this forum. At least there seems to be no announcents from manufacturer side, that anything changed/is about to change :(

I fully agree that it could be implemented based on acceleration, not fixed interval and it would be better for me compared to current implementation. But it may confuse some riders as tilt back starts at different absolute speeds. What I would find useful is a much more simple solution: That you can set the tilt back "window" yourself. Lets say you set max speed to 37 km/h and tilt back window is set to 5, so it would start tilt back at 32 and achieve full tilt back at 37. Then the "gentleness" of the tilt back is in the hands of the user.

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10 minutes ago, Felix said:

Lets say you set max speed to 37 km/h and tilt back window is set to 5, so it would start tilt back at 32 and achieve full tilt back at 37. Then the "gentleness" of the tilt back is in the hands of the user.

Yes, would be a step. But this would limit maximum cruising speed. As with my ks16s i like to cruise (with enough battery charge) just below the max setable 35 km/h. Just below tiltback setting in - it's nicely felt.

If i'd set such a window i'd ve riding with some slight tiltback at 35 km/h continously :(

But i'm very used to my wheel, and so i have no real concerns about this. As i decided (for myself) that wheels like mine are to weak to have higher accelerations at these speeds i don't to this and it won't happen to me having a "serious" tiltback at 35 km/h. I can't really remember when or if i really had a full tiltback with my KS16S - couod be that i always stopped prudently stronger accelerations before and just approached the tiltback very calmly.

The one, long time ago experience beeing surprised by a tiltback with a ninebot e+ and the fight to regain balance and beeing able to brake again was enough for me...

21 minutes ago, Felix said:

But it may confuse some riders as tilt back starts at different absolute speeds.

Imho better to confuse some riders a bit as (potentually) endanger them!

I'd personally prefer to explain (new) members/riders here why tiltback starts strangly at different speeds than explaining them why the wheel tried to kill them (as it often happened:( )!

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25 minutes ago, Felix said:

I fully agree that it could be implemented based on acceleration, not fixed interval and it would be better for me compared to current implementation. But it may confuse some riders as tilt back starts at different absolute speeds. What I would find useful is a much more simple solution: That you can set the tilt back "window" yourself. Lets say you set max speed to 37 km/h and tilt back window is set to 5, so it would start tilt back at 32 and achieve full tilt back at 37. Then the "gentleness" of the tilt back is in the hands of the user.

Why don't you use something that already exists:

leave tiltback at 37 and set an alarm at 32.

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1 minute ago, ir_fuel said:

Why don't you use something that already exists:

leave tiltback at 37 and set an alarm at 32.

Didnt find an option  for that in Inmotion app. Can you explain how to do it?

But one drawback is the beep may be overheard, but still i'd be happy with that solution

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1 minute ago, ir_fuel said:

Why don't you use something that already exists:

leave tiltback at 37 and set an alarm at 32.

Then the wheel would beep all the time while driving above 32 km/h... :(

I've set one alarm and tiltback at 35 km/h - luckily the tiltback is already noticable _before_ the 35 km/h beeps start! So i have a nice cruising speed without disturbing beeps!

Just ones speed throttling is active or a "real" warning comes i'd hear something beeping!

3 minutes ago, Felix said:

Didnt find an option  for that in Inmotion app. Can you explain how to do it?

But one drawback is the beep may be overheard, but still i'd be happy with that solution

Don't know exactly about inmotion, but normally speed alarms can be set. As for KS wheels one can set 3 speed alarms - the first two can be disabled. They have different beeping patterns - and unfortionately they don't just beep if one crosses the threshold but beep continously once one drives faster as these set speeds :(

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4 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Indeed, but just set it at the speed you don't want to exceed.

Yes, that's what i do! My reply was to @Felix and your suggestion to to get some "prewarning". But this is unfortionately not possible (acceptable for me), as this would lead to continous beeping. :(

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27 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Then the wheel would beep all the time while driving above 32 km/h... :(

I've set one alarm and tiltback at 35 km/h - luckily the tiltback is already noticable _before_ the 35 km/h beeps start! So i have a nice cruising speed without disturbing beeps!

Just ones speed throttling is active or a "real" warning comes i'd hear something beeping!

Don't know exactly about inmotion, but normally speed alarms can be set. As for KS wheels one can set 3 speed alarms - the first two can be disabled. They have different beeping patterns - and unfortionately they don't just beep if one crosses the threshold but beep continously once one drives faster as these set speeds :(

Yeh well, Inmotion app doesnt have this. So i only have a very sudden tilt back together with a beep

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inmotion app is garbage - darknessbot much better.

one other feature of note for v8f - toggle led lights on/off by holding wheel stop ( in handle ) and pressing power...

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28 minutes ago, amelanso said:

inmotion app is garbage - darknessbot much better.

one other feature of note for v8f - toggle led lights on/off by holding wheel stop ( in handle ) and pressing power...

Are you saying you could vary the speed of when the beep occurs using darkness bot? I couldnt find an option for that either. There is no separation of warning beep and tilt back as far as i could see, but would be happy if I am wrong.

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17 hours ago, Vellberger said:

Gear like that make sence on euc rushing 60km/h for sure, but do you think it is a bit overdone to gear up like this on a 35km/h max euc?

My instincts as a newbie with little real experience of the danger involved would be:

  • <20km/h, acceptable on pavements/shopping streets, comparable risk to running/kick bikes. Protective gear: none
  • 25km/h, acceptable on bike lanes/places with some distance to pedestrians, comparable risk to riding a bicycle at non-sporting speeds, protective gear: bike helmet
  • 35km/h, acceptable at good bike lanes without nearby pedestrians, comparable risk to casual downhill skiing/snowboarding, protective gear: bike helmet and wristguards
  • 45km/h upwards, acceptable on roads, not in bike lanes. More risky than driving a motorcycle, protective gear: full helmet, lots of padding

But I don’t know what I am talking about here, so this may be way off. 

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Hello Kai,
welcome to this nice Hobby and the great EUC comunity! We planned to visit noway since one year for summer holiday this year but stopped all efforts for our trip (COVID-19) until now. Since Norway will open their borders, we booked a ferry to Bergen and I am really looking forward to visit your country!  We will spent 3 weeks in norway and travel across the Country. The route isn´t fixed yet, so we can meet for a ride :P Have you got some recommendation for places, nice trails for the EUC, historical places, things we sould eat or drink (or better not to drink) :D Do you have a local group here at the EUC Forum? I couldn´t find one...

About safety: I drove close to 2000km with my wheels in the last four years and I had two face plants. The first was an an typical overlean due to lack of power with a cheap chinese generic Airwheel at 15-20km/h. (1st wheel look at the avatar)  I tried to run of the speed but fell over in a kind of pushup pose - only my Hands contacted the pavement. (Thanks god no witness) My shoulders got a deep Impact and I needed almost half of a year to recover completely and the pain disapeared completely.  The second fall was due to a pothole on the street I did´t see, I lost control at 25km/h...this time I was wearing my gear and was not enjured. Lesson learned. Always keep in mind: it can always happen - even if you are an experienced driver. Any kind of technical Problem leads to faceplant. And there is no backup System, no redundance. If I don´t drive at walking speed and doing tricks in front of my house, I wear wrist, knee and elbow protective gear and a full face helmet. At least a helmet is a must!

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Heh, I'll also be in Kristiansand this summer, we could have a little group ride :) 
(As for face planting: I'm at 8000km and fell several 
times for various reasons, but no FP yet. I always wear a full face helmet in case though)

edit: main reasons for falling that was my fault: sharp turns on slippery ground, pedals smack in curb, didn't see rock. Falling without it being my fault: car turning right without looking.

Edited by null
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4 hours ago, Fahrtwind said:

Since Norway will open their borders, we booked a ferry to Bergen and I am really looking forward to visit your country!  We will spent 3 weeks in norway and travel across the Country. The route isn´t fixed yet, so we can meet for a ride :P Have you got some recommendation for places, nice trails for the EUC, historical places, things we sould eat or drink (or better not to drink) :D

Nice! Bergen is a beautiful city with a lot of personality. I grew up there. Known for its poor weather, but on a sunny day it is wonderful. Riding along the «Fjellveien» gravel paths and up to the spectacular view at «Fløyen» would probably be a very nice EUC ride. You could also take a ride across «Puddefjordsbroen» and up the mountainside on Laksevåg up to the top of Øvre Stadionvei for a view down on the city from that side. The city centre is not very bicycle/EUC friendly, so perhaps best to explore on foot. I’d recommend walking down to «Verftet» by the sea for a beer or some simple food. Nice place and the walk there is past some pretty «postcard» streets and buildings.

Stavanger is a bit similar to Bergen, but smaller. It has some excellent restaurants, so a good place for some fine dining. The oil museum there is worth a visit imo. I don’t know the city well enough to suggest any EUC rides.

Kristiansand is smaller still, but popular during summer. Known for its nice weather. It is very «child friendly» in general, and is particularly popular for families because of the zoo/theme park (in EUC range) from the city centre. There is a popular sand beach right by the city centre and a beer or some fish food by the sea-side at one of the restaurants at «Fiskebryggen» is nice in the sun. The peninsula «Odderøya» would be perfect to explore by EUC, and an excellent place for a picnic. You could also visit the park «Ravnedalen» by foot or EUC. One of my favourite places in Kristiansand, with a cafe serving waffles, burgers, beer, etc. There are regular concerts there as well. If you come by EUC, you could carry it up a steep path going up from the end of the park with the big, green lawn and then ride it back on gravel paths through «Baneheia» to a fresh water lake popular for swimming. It is very close to the city centre. A more ambitious plan could be to take a small tourist ferry to Lillesand, an idyllic small city close to Kristiansand and then ride back. There are excellent bike paths wih direction signs all the way back to KrSand I believe, so no need to ride in traffic. Halfway back would be the zoo, restaurant/hotel/IKEA and a gigantic mall, so probably a suitable place to charge. The Kristiansand area is mostly very bike friendly in general, so easy to get around safely on EUCs.

@Fahrtwind @null if any (or both!) come to Kristiansand it’d be great to meet up for a beer, coffee, EUC ride or whatever. So please don’t hesitate to get in touch if it fits with your plans. :)

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On 7/3/2020 at 3:30 PM, Vellberger said:

Hello,

although it is a gear question, I ask it here, because it is specific to the V8F.

I am choosing gear since a few days now. And I have allready wrist guards, knee protectors and a motorcycle jacket with protectors. And i currently use a bicycle helmet as well, which I want to change in a full face helmet. [...] But now I´m struggling with the vision to drive around like Ironman while I get over taken by an old lady on an e-bike. ^^

What do you think?

Full-face (with windshield) is excessive.  But a chin guard seems quite prudent.  You should get a helmet that robustly surrounds the chin, and then decide when to wear it.  The little old lady has such a helmet (it's a Bell Super 3R, if I'm not mistaken), but she only wears it when she sails around on her EUC.

When to wear it, is "always" for safety, but I have found that it unnerves people nearby.  If you look too well-protected, you are a threat.  Vulnerability reassures them that you will not collide. 

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Kai,
thank you very much for your effort! So many good tips. We will try to visit most of your suggestions!

We will reach Kristiansand, our last stop,  approx. on August 3rd. I will let you know once I am Close to Kristiansand to make an appointment!

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Body language is much more important than your gear's appearance in shaping how pedestrians perceive you. When approaching pedestrians particularly in denser, pedestrian-centric/pedestrian-heavy places like a park and/or when around kids, etc, in addition to slowing way down I'll do things like raise my wind visor to make eye contact, nod or even offer a verbal greeting to older adults, wave to small children if they're staring/pointing, etc. You can visibly see the adults' body language change/relax as they can see that you see them & are paying attention, or that you see & acknowledge the presence of their kid, etc.

Edited by AtlasP
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Hello, does anyone own the protectiv cover for the V8F? I received mine yesterday and I´m wondering what the zipper is for. Didn´t make any difference for mounting the cover.

Perhaps to be obscene when let it open? No idea...

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On 6/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, Kai Drange said:

Ha! Yes, I hope it won’t be too soon, though. Currently, practicing the pendulum, backwards driving, learning how to do sharp turns, tricks, etc. appeals more to me than lots of padding and high speeds, but that might very well change.

I have a fear of injuring others or even of being a mild nuisance in traffic (to the extent that it is irrational, tbh). I’m riding with a bell in my hand and slow down to walking speeds and keep my distance when closing in on pedestrians, dogs, children on bikes or similar. I never drive a car unless I absolutely have to out of fear that I might someday hit someone. I don’t think I have ever driven over the speed limit! So perhaps the need for speed will never come. Time will tell... :)
 

I’m impressed. You must have been able to pick up EUC riding skills very quickly. Have you done anything similar before?  I have been told that the V8 & V8f are good wheels to learn on. .....Ps..You are a lucky guy living in Norway, I was based in Stavanger in the 1970’s and 80’s. Working for Sub Sea Dilphin on the oil fields. 

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