Reckless riding is going to get us banned

[Neon EUC]

@davinchi

At no point did I say "YouTube holds the power of legislation" so I have no idea where you got that from ?

 

You also asked about make decisions based on small subset of individuals from other countries ? Does the trials of e-scooters being used like they have been doing in France ring any bells?

 

Any other questions? 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Neon EUC

[davinche]

4 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

To be fair I don't think it is unreasonable for any politician to look at how other governments tackle a particular issue and look at other countries statistics etc.

This is fair. If the US had already banned EUCs, then sure I would be concerned. But the inverse should also hold true right? There hasn't been a ban yet, and EUCs are classified as bikes/ebikes in some States/cities. So by the argument of looking at other countries as examples, the US (or EUCs specifically) wouldn't be the reason to ban electric rideables right?

9 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Let's be fair here, I know a lot of politicians aren't known for applying common sense but if the get they impression EUC's are high speed machines predominately used by adrenalin junkies then they are going to be cautious and vote against legalisation.

Sure. But hopefully there is some consideration on both the good and bad a device can bring. In the midst of COVID-19, no one wants to be confined in a closed environment around other people. So is it worth it to legalize PEVs even though they pose some additional risks? That's to be determined right?

12 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

No-one here wants to see EUC's banned but I honestly think that's the way we are heading if people insist on riding like maniacs in public'

Agreed. But as always, the factor that needs to be considered is the percentage of people that are riding like maniacs. I guess I am a utilitarian at heart, and I think PEVs is mainly good for most people.

14 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

The conversation here has moved it's emphasis on to legalisation etc and I guess we are all a little bit guilty of putting our own interests first but we also need to remember it is also one of public safety. No matter how well a person can control their wheel accidents do happen and higher speeds increase the likelihood of injury (or death), it stands to reason a very serious incident will happen to an innocent member of the public before long if people insist on riding at 35+ mph in busy traffic or near pedestrians.

Agreed. Hence why most people here condemn riding on highways / high speeds next to pedestrians.

[davinche]

23 minutes ago, Neon EUC said:

@davinchi

At no point did I say "YouTube holds the power of legislation" so I have no idea where you got that from ?

Well you're making the one claiming that YouTube videos from some obscure New Yorkers are going to get electric rideables banned in London. Here is a direct quote from you:

1 hour ago, Neon EUC said:

Well it certainly wouldn't be Boris Johnson as he would see the NYC riders and think " No way would I want that to happen in our country" so will ban it...

 

And it would be the idiotic NYC YouTube riders to blame... so.. erm... Want to ask again who the dummy would be ?

 

23 minutes ago, Neon EUC said:

You also asked about make decisions based on small subset of individuals from other countries ? Does the trials of e-scooters being used like they have been doing in France ring any bells?

I'll admit, I certainly did not follow the trials of e-scooter in France and what the resulting data was in which they based whatever decision they made on. So if you don't mind, please share (most importantly) the data and also the decision that was made based on said data. Doing a quick Google search, it seems like e-scooters are legal in France?

Edited July 1, 2020 by davinche

[Neon EUC]

2 minutes ago, davinche said:

Well you're making the one claiming that YouTube videos from some obscure New Yorkers are going to get electric rideables banned in London. Here is a direct quote from you:

 

I'll admit, I certainly did not follow the trials of e-scooter in France and what the resulting data was in which they based whatever decision they made on. So if you don't mind, please share (most importantly) the data and also the decision that was made based on said data. Doing a quick Google search, it seems like e-scooters are legal in France?

 

[davinche]

1 minute ago, Neon EUC said:

 

Okay? And? Those bans makes sense. In LA, I'm not allowed to ride on sidewalks; I have to ride on the road. You shouldn't take e-scooters on highways or rural roads either because of speed limit requirements. There's really no argument here unless footpaths, highways and rural roads are different in France?

[Neon EUC]

5 minutes ago, davinche said:

I still like to know where you think it said YouTube would be the ones getting them banned?  I said it was the NYC riders.

 

Not really winning this one are you?

[Neon EUC]

4 minutes ago, davinche said:

Okay? And? Those bans makes sense. In LA, I'm not allowed to ride on sidewalks; I have to ride on the road. You shouldn't take e-scooters on highways or rural roads either because of speed limit requirements. There's really no argument here unless footpaths, highways and rural roads are different in France?

The point is really simple and straight forward... you asked how other countries can swing a decision on law for our country to make euc legal...

 

I explained

 

You then asked for proof

 

I explained with France and e-scooters

 

And now you saying this? Give it up, your fighting a losing battle and you know it

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Neon EUC

[davinche]

1 hour ago, Neon EUC said:

The point is really simple and straight forward... you asked how other countries can swing a decision on law for our country to make euc legal...

 

I explained

 

You then asked for proof

 

I explained with France and e-scooters

 

And now you saying this? Give it up, your fighting a losing battle and you know it

 

 

Uhh what? Are you suggesting that instead of FOLLOWING another countries example by introducing legislation that permits the safe use of e-scooters, your country decided to ban them outright? And you blame it on France? LOL

[LanghamP]

I dunno, all this talk of banning EUCs depresses me. I got an EUC so I could be free of the limitations of my legs! I did it to be free! I want to be free! Like David Hasselhoff...!

 

[Livingston B]

5 hours ago, Neon EUC said:

I mean really? With your logic thinking then I guess that George floyd and the BLM protest didn't affect anyone outside of America as IT DIDNT HAPPEN IN EUROPE!!!

 

and yet we are getting good coverage in UK but it's idiots like you with your pathetic YouTube posts about stupid things like these. And let's not forget about that guy who was doing a rap video in New York didn't wear a helmet and what happened? Smashed he's face in and now has the nerve to ask for a "go fund me" loooool I don't think so. Shouldn't be a cocky rider. I broke my hip, I broke my leg, I broke my shoulder...all in the past.. I didn't ask one person to go fund me. But then why would I? It's my problem. Seems like riders like you try and act all "cool" but make yourself out like idiots that you are for pathetic YouTube likes. Then cry when things go wrong. Leave up to the big boys like us who rides sensible and try to get it lawfully imposed that we can ride these legally

 

Not to get too picky, because I agree with your sentiment, but thanks to corporate capture, GoFundMe is our NHS.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Livingston B

[Neon EUC]

7 hours ago, Livingston B said:

Not to get too picky, because I agree with your sentiment, but thanks to corporate capture, GoFundMe is our NHS.

Wrong... NHS is paid for by tax payers who work and put into the system like I do. So when I need the NHS I know I put my bit into it

[travsformation]

Guys, mods have issued repeated warnings (directed at no one in particular) to keep the discussion civil. I like to think we're pretty permissive in terms of understanding how discussions we're passionate about can easily become heated, but at this point, we're having to hide posts due to outright personal attacks and disrespect to other users.

We've been very patient, but are going to start issuing warnings involving temporary content moderation if this doesn't subside. Please show some restraint and keep things civil.

 

Also, these are exciting times for EUC enthusiasts...two new wheels with suspension and a new EUC manufacturer! We should be rejoicing! Wait, forget that, people are insulting each other over all three of those too... 

Maybe we should all take a few steps back, breathe in deeply a few times, switch off the computer and go for a ride on our wheels instead of arguing about them with strangers on the Internet 

Here's some motivation (the dancing an romantic music aren't mandatory but surely won't hurt) 
 

 

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Neon EUC said:

Wrong... NHS is paid for by tax payers who work and put into the system like I do. So when I need the NHS I know I put my bit into it

@Livingston BB is from the US (as I am) while you're from the UK. Health care works differently.

The US pays the highest health care in the world, both as a percentage of a worker's salary and in absolute numbers.

The Medicare and Medicaid payroll tax is levied on all US workers regardless if they work full time, but it's a regressive tax once you get past $150k as the tax is capped there.

Companies negotiate with private health insurers for service and coverage area. Hence, "the surprise medical bill" when a procedure or a place of service isn't covered.

All US workers must pay into two or more medical systems without, however, being fully covered by either system.

[Livingston B]

1 hour ago, Neon EUC said:

Wrong... NHS is paid for by tax payers who work and put into the system like I do. So when I need the NHS I know I put my bit into it

The fact that you didn't beg for money in a zero-at-the-point of service system is not strong evidence of your moral amazingness.  You may very well be morally amazing, but we'd need a better contrast than the one you provided.

[Nic]

[mike_bike_kite]

I'm not sure why we're discussing the American health care system but I don't think it's anything to be proud of. Prices for (medical) drugs and health care seem far higher in the States than in Europe. I happen to be a type 1 diabetic and the cost of insulin is approx £30 a month (or it would be if I didn't get the medicine for free). I spoke to a pall on a US motorbike forum and he told me he could never retire as he had to pay $800 a month for his insulin. I guess you're OK if your insurance covers your bills but what if you lose your job (quite likely in the current climate), or if they won't insure you because of an existing condition, life can get scary quite quick. I also understand it's quite easy to be bankrupted by medical expenses either for yourself or your dependants (apparently over 60% of bankruptcies in the states are due to medical costs).

To link back to EUCs for a moment. If you do hit a pedestrian in the park while speed testing your new wheel - who ends up paying their medical bills? and what happens if you don't have that sort of cash lying around?

[mike_bike_kite]

Unfortunately it's only rental e-scooters plus they're legally limited to 15mph plus you need a driving license to use them but it's definitely a step in the right direction. We still have a way to go before being able to ride our own EUCs legally on the road.

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm not sure why we're discussing the American health care system but I don't think it's anything to be proud of. Prices for (medical) drugs and health care seem far higher in the States than in Europe.

Fixing the damage from an EUC crash seems to me by far the most expensive part of EUC ownership. And we crash a lot. Way way more than motorcycles or bicycles.

Ask @Rehab1

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Fixing the damage from an EUC crash seems to me by far the most expensive part of EUC ownership. And we crash a lot. Way way more than motorcycles or bicycles.

Ask @Rehab1

Oj that is not fair. Look how long he has been riding. and how much fun stuff he do while riding, eg. yard work and show shoving..... 

But I do think we all have had a tiny taste of crashing at some point. I have had my share I can say. 

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

Also, these are exciting times for EUC enthusiasts...two new wheels with suspension and a new EUC manufacturer! We should be rejoicing! Wait, forget that, people are insulting each other over all three of those too... 

And yes some of those could have been saved...maybe if I had suspension on my wheel. But When safety increases people push the boundaries even further. 

If we had been on location all together I would have called for a group hug picture by now. but that is a little difficult with a global forum I guess. 

 

[JustChris]

I'm guessing this will be an unpopular opinion, given the audience, but here goes:

I have been on the fence about riding my beloved EUC ever since my head injury, a month ago. I'm still shocked at the degree to which I was affected by a bump on the head. I was going about 1 MPH, on grass, when my fall happened.

I have no memory of the incident, or the hour that followed. Maybe there's something about my head, or my helmet that made the incident worse, though I don't know what that would be. I've had to make some difficult decisions about my riding.

I've decided to sell my KS-16X. My partner doesn't want me to ride anymore, and I'm having a hard time refuting the dangers. If this was the outcome at 1 mph, how much worse might it have been at 25-30 mph?

Obviously, the physics of every incident are different. Maybe I'm throwing in the towel too soon.

As I have read this ongoing debate, it has pushed my thinking more and more to the negative. I have a newfound respect for the argument that we might be putting others safety at risk.

I have also always been nervous about the massive array of batteries in my EUC. I don't dare charge it unattended, and I worry about the potential for starting a fire that destroys property or hurts someone. My boss doesn't like me to bring all those batteries into the building, either.

I'm NOT suggesting that this is an inherently irresponsible, reckless sport. What I am suggesting is that people need to take precautions to mitigate the risks that do exist. No one has the right to hurt someone else, for the sake of their recreational activities. We all have an obligation to try to protect those around us.

For me, protecting my family means reluctantly giving up my EUC. I truly hate to say it, but I think I'm out. 

I'm sure this is going to be a controversial post. Bring on the replies! 😉 Just know that I love this community and sport, as a whole.

(P.S. If you want info on my 16X, send me a message. I'll probably list it for sale in a couple days.)

[Nic]

46 minutes ago, JustChris said:

I have been on the fence about riding my beloved EUC ever since my head injury, a month ago. I'm still shocked at the degree to which I was affected by a bump on the head. I was going about 1 MPH, on grass, when my fall happened.

Sorry, but 1 mph? That's not an EUC accident as you are barely moving.

Maybe you suffered a blackout or some other medical issue? Was your EUC damaged? Where was it when you woke up? Right next to you or a few meters away? You didn't give us much to go on.

[davinche]

1 hour ago, JustChris said:

I have also always been nervous about the massive array of batteries in my EUC. I don't dare charge it unattended, and I worry about the potential for starting a fire that destroys property or hurts someone.

After seeing my Nikola burn up, I have had similar fears. But one has to realize that many things in life have the potential to cause harm. Your stove can cause a fire. Your car can malfunction. Your power tools can have a defects. Plumbing in your house can leak and thereby causing electrical shorts and a fire, batteries in your phone can explode etc etc. So the only option I see is it either live in fear and avoid things that can cause harm (even if they bring tremendous value), or accept risk but do your own due diligence to mitigate the risk. Regarding EUCs, I've accepted the latter, but I've now taken the time to educate myself - what batteries go into each model, what are the potential failure points in the device, what electronic protections do each model have, what are the worst case scenarios, what is balance charging, what are some symptoms of device failure / degradation, what routine maintenance is required to keep the device healthy etc etc...

As an example: I've personally drawn the line on getting another Gotway until they add short-circuit protection and up their QC. Given the amount of batteries in these devices contain, the damage can be substantial and the combination of the lack of protection and good QC makes it too risky for me. Of course, this doesn't mean that everyone should feel the same way. Some people have had tremendous success with their Gotway Wheels, but my "due dilligence" and personality tells me it is a risk not worth taking.

It sucks that you suffered from a head injury: I really do sympathize but at the same time I have to ask if you were wearing a helmet or not? I'm not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but with anything you pick and choose your risk/reward tolerances.

Edited July 1, 2020 by davinche
Added example

[JustChris]

7 minutes ago, davinche said:

It sucks that you suffered from a head injury: I really do sympathize but at the same time I have to ask if you were wearing a helmet or not? I'm not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but with anything you pick and choose your risk/reward tolerances.

I was wearing a helmet, and it appears totally unscathed. Despite that, I got a moderate concussion. 

You're right - we all have our own risk tolerance. Everything we do has pros and cons. Risks and rewards.

My point was to separate the risk to self, vs. risk to others. In my opinion, the videos in the beginning of this thread display WAY too much risk to the safety of others. (I don't care what city it is. People are people, and do unpredictable stuff, all the time.)

I've reached my personal risk threshold, rather surprisingly, at 1 mph. The Dr says if I hit my head again, it'll be worse the next time, as brain injuries are cumulative. 

Just want to offer some perspective and food for thought.

[Chriull]

2 minutes ago, JustChris said:

I've reached my personal risk threshold, rather surprisingly, at 1 mph. The Dr says if I hit my head again, it'll be worse the next time, as brain injuries are cumulative. 

Head concussions are not speed related - one can die falling from standstill as household accidents show. It seems to be bad luck how exactly one falls:(

[JustChris]

24 minutes ago, Nic said:

Maybe you suffered a blackout or some other medical issue? Was your EUC damaged? Where was it when you woke up? Right next to you or a few meters away? You didn't give us much to go on.

All of what I know about the incident comes from my partner's explanation of events, as I have no memory of it until reaching the hospital.

I was riding very slowly, preparing to stop, when I apparently misjudged a large bump in the grass. My partner witnessed the fall, and said I made it over the bump, then lost my balance, and fell straight backwards. The wheel stopped right beside me, at my feet. I momentarily lost consciousness, but then started trying to get up. We decided I should rest for a couple minutes, then I said I was ready to go on. 

I rode another 1/2 mile without incident, but apparently I stopped, and asked where we were, and what had happened. I'm told I was very, very confused, and none of the things people said to me made any sense. I asked about 30 times what had happened, and couldn't seem to make sense of the explanation. That's when the paramedics were called.