Veteran CutOUT / Overlean?

[DjPanJan]

video description : The rider was going about 25-30mph when he hit the bump and cut out. The wheel had roughly around 65% battery. Instagram: @nycerider

I'm creating this topic to keep the discussion about CUT OUT / overlean separate from the general topics around Veteran:

 

[Asphalt]

Rider was ~280lbs and was intentionally trying to achieve cut-out.

I'm all for someone testing the limits of these wheels, but let's try to provide as much context as possible around these videos that will be shared broadly.

[xorbe]

There's a new full episode from Hsaing on YT that includes this drop.

[jimjam.nyc]

Aren't there ways of testing these things without putting the people testing, other people on the street, and peoples property on the street in danger? 

I am all for testing the limits of these wheels as well, but i am pretty sure Veteran can test this stuff in a controlled environment to get actual real data.. Not with the amount of variables in place here on the streets of NYC.. All While taking a chance that the wheel may smash into someone or something.. (how ever slight that chance may be)

I know these guys are very skilled riders and know what they are doing.. but seeing this video kind of makes me cringe... If you want to put yourself on the line that is fine.. Go to a secluded area..  Yes i did watch the full review.. Even in context this test seems kind of reckless, and not even really showing a real world scenario.. 

[xorbe]

2 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

but i am pretty sure Veteran can test this stuff in a controlled environment to get actual real data

Nobody's gonna trust what these Chinese manufs say, better to independently test shipping products.  But I agree, that riding group seems a bit rough around the edges to me.  I guess group rides aren't my thing.  I also bailed out of a motorcycle group ride.  So much hooliganism comes out in groups.

[Meserias]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:37 PM, Asphalt said:

Rider was ~280lbs and was intentionally trying to achieve cut-out.

I'm all for someone testing the limits of these wheels, but let's try to provide as much context as possible around these videos that will be shared broadly.

280 lbs means 127 kg !!!
that rider it's not that heavy....

maybe you want to say that wheel + rider could be: 280lbs
(that will be more closer to reality)

 

[RayBanMonster]

4 hours ago, Meserias said:

280 lbs means 127 kg !!!
that rider it's not that heavy....

maybe you want to say that wheel + rider could be: 280lbs
(that will be more closer to reality)

 

exactly.. no way is he 127Kg 

That said  I dont think the weight of the wheel should be included in any calculation if that was the intention....

What I think has happened is that the rider has intentionally dipped the wheel and over-leaned it to such an extent the wheel cut out as designed

But all the same.. that should not happen. Kuji Rolls also mentioned that on lean and brake the wheel has a tendency to dip. 

Perhaps the solution to this is to put it on hard mode so its more responsive rather than to emphasise leaning on the soft mode?  We have to see..  But it looks like a fabulous wheel (for me save the off-road tyre... that cannot be good for cornering grip)

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, Meserias said:

280 lbs means 127 kg !!!
that rider it's not that heavy....

maybe you want to say that wheel + rider could be: 280lbs
(that will be more closer to reality)

15 minutes ago, RayBanMonster said:

exactly.. no way is he 127Kg 

FYI, 280 lbs (weight + protective gear) was straight from the rider's mouth, and he was actually self-conscious about it being revealed, for obvious reasons.

Plus, I was with you guys, I thought maybe he was around 200 lbs / 90 kg, but nope, more.

 

15 minutes ago, RayBanMonster said:

But all the same.. that should not happen. Kuji Rolls also mentioned that on lean and brake the wheel has a tendency to dip. 

Perhaps the solution to this is to put it on hard mode so its more responsive rather than to emphasise leaning on the soft mode?  We have to see..  But it looks like a fabulous wheel (for me save the off-road tyre... that cannot be good for cornering grip)

The Veteran's Soft mode brake backswing pedal travel is definitely there (threw me figuratively off first time trying), unlike a Gotway soft mode brake backswing, which stiffens up more / shortens pedal travel vs the acceleration frontswing.

But I still maintain that his combination of high rider payload, full continued lean for speed (crowd egging him on) despite 2 catchings of unintentional air, then final hitting of a bump for overpower overcurrent, landing still into a acceleration lean, is what IMHO made the wheel cutout, which would really make most EVERY wheel on the market cutout from overpower.

Not to mention, if you know how to properly ride Soft mode, you can't be fully upright, you have to favor the wheel leaning at an angle, due to the dip (the dip is actually TO your advantage on soft mode when at an angle, whereas unfamiliar riders will complain about the dip BECAUSE they try to ride fully erect upright, which obviously points down to the road). I'm not sure if the rider was on Soft mode (I heard it was allegedly Medium) but if he was, he was way too upright and erect to leverage accelerating the wheel properly.

 

[RayBanMonster]

16 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

FYI, 280 lbs (weight + protective gear) was straight from the rider's mouth, and he was actually self-conscious about it being revealed, for obvious reasons.

Plus, I was with you guys, I thought maybe he was around 200 lbs / 90 kg, but nope, more.

 

The Veteran's Soft mode brake backswing pedal travel is definitely there (threw me figuratively off first time trying), unlike a Gotway soft mode brake backswing, which stiffens up more / shortens pedal travel vs the acceleration frontswing.

But I still maintain that his combination of high rider payload, full continued lean for speed (crowd egging him on) despite 2 catchings of unintentional air, then final hitting of a bump for overpower overcurrent, landing still into a acceleration lean, is what IMHO made the wheel cutout, which would really make most EVERY wheel on the market cutout from overpower.

Not to mention, if you know how to properly ride Soft mode, you can't be fully upright, you have to favor the wheel leaning at an angle, due to the dip (the dip is actually TO your advantage on soft mode when at an angle, whereas unfamiliar riders will complain about the dip BECAUSE they try to ride fully erect upright, which obviously points down to the road). I'm not sure if the rider was on Soft mode (I heard it was allegedly Medium) but if he was, he was way too upright and erect to leverage accelerating the wheel properly.

 

HoJ This explains a lot, thanks.. that he was that heavy is already over recommended specification at 120kg... (he must be super tall then) plus he was leaning with all that weight... and I agree he was always going to fall with that weight after watching the video again more carefully....

Personally I used to ride soft and medium on MSX but now favour hard mode because I dislike leaning (it dumped me after acceleration wobble on super hard lean), so much lack of control on a deep lean... feels so much better to accelerate with small er but upright input.

The wheel is definitely now in favour as my next purchase beyond MSpro [Hi-Speed]variant as I already have an MSX 100v and surprisingly.. still so few videos on the MSP hi-speed.

Gotway dropped the ball competitively with MSPro variants.. No wonder these guys broke away.

PS thanks for your Sherman teardown.. still reading that.

Edited June 26, 2020 by RayBanMonster

[houseofjob]

On 6/26/2020 at 8:31 AM, RayBanMonster said:

Personally I used to ride soft and medium on MSX but now favour hard mode because I dislike leaning (it dumped me after acceleration wobble on super hard lean), so much lack of control on a deep lean... feels so much better to accelerate with small er but upright input.

Curious. The reason why I ride soft mode is for those reasons: so I don't have to superman lean and for the utmost control, ha! 

But it's not too straightforward to tap into this; took me 2 years of experimenting with foot placement / body angles, but now I can't ride any other modes, plus a reason why I don't like the very popular MSX series is due to that Soft mode being relatively hard in the grand scheme of Gotway model feels.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 8:31 AM, RayBanMonster said:

Gotway dropped the ball competitively with MSPro variants.. No wonder these guys broke away.

For sure the MSP won't appeal to most, but there are a few fans here in NYC because you literally can't overpower the machine (and they probably don't need faster). It kind of harkens back to pre-2015 when I first got into EUC, when Gotway offered 3 tunings of the ancestor MSuper2: High Speed, High Torque, and Medium Torque (balanced Torque/Speed). The Medium Torque version wasn't popular back then, so I think that's why MSX speed vs MSP Torque.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by houseofjob

[Ben Kim]

7 hours ago, RayBanMonster said:

exactly.. no way is he 127Kg 

That said  I dont think the weight of the wheel should be included in any calculation if that was the intention....

What I think has happened is that the rider has intentionally dipped the wheel and over-leaned it to such an extent the wheel cut out as designed

But all the same.. that should not happen. Kuji Rolls also mentioned that on lean and brake the wheel has a tendency to dip. 

Perhaps the solution to this is to put it on hard mode so its more responsive rather than to emphasise leaning on the soft mode?  We have to see..  But it looks like a fabulous wheel (for me save the off-road tyre... that cannot be good for cornering grip)

uh yes he is. he stepped on a scale the day before. 279 lbs. 

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

uh yes he is. he stepped on a scale the day before. 279 lbs. 

Good, good, let's just keep on repeating his weight outloud across social media 💩

[Ben Kim]

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Good, good, let's just keep on repeating his weight outloud across social media 💩

Given he got on this scale specifically to prep for sherman stress testing, it’s worth mentioning! So much context gets lost in these videos, and you’re about to lose your precious soft mode because of it. 

[HalfGlass]

Dear dudes and dudesses, 127kg/280lbs isn't that big weight if you're relatively tall. I'm 6'7'' tall and trust me; you gain that weight really easy if you're taking a break from your diet or working out and aiming to gain some weight. So

I've been riding my previous 18L being almost 290lbs with no problem, not at top speed for sure, and didn't feel that reliable as my current Nik+, but still. The weight isn't the biggest factor, the biggest factor is a push where your weight plus acceleration plus momentum makes it all.

[erk1024]

On 6/22/2020 at 10:37 AM, Asphalt said:

Rider was ~280lbs and was intentionally trying to achieve cut-out.

Not only that, but it's a spongy / bouncy tire mounted on the Sherman, and he was airborne quite a bit right before the crash. Wheel can't balance if the tire is not touching the ground. 

[Andy Huang]

This is a serious flaw of the original factory.

This is the test value of the first wheel from Taiwan.  

When the lcd six grids, the actual voltage is only 89V, and about 20% of the power is left.  

But people will think that there is more than 60% of the electricity, so this rider caused a power outage at a low voltage.  

I once made my suggestion to @馬蒂·巴克（Marty Backe）in message(2020/07/05), but he didn't seem to read.

 

 

 

SHERMAN		電壓(V)	電量(WH)
100%	4.2	100.8	3528	8BAR
90%	4.06	97.44	3069.36
80%	3.98	95.52	2674.56
70%	3.92	94.08	2304.96	7BAR
60%	3.87	92.88	1950.48
50%	3.82	91.68	1604.4
40%	3.79	90.96	1273.44
30%	3.77	90.48	950.04
20%	3.74	89.76	628.32	6BAR
10%	3.68	88.32	309.12	5BAR
5%	3.45	82.8	144.9	3BAR
3%	3.25	78	81.9	2 LOW
2%	3.15	75.6	52.92	1 BACK
0%	3	72	0

[Chriull]

19 minutes ago, Andy Huang said:

When the lcd six grids, the actual voltage is only 89V, and about 20% of the power is left.  

Sorry - you are mixing up energy(Wh, remaining battery capacity) with power (W)!

(The capacity shown (as the firmware calculates this directly from the voltage) is only valid after letting the battery rest without burden _some_ time!)

22 minutes ago, Andy Huang said:

But people will think that there is more than 60% of the electricity,

??? (Sorry if you meant something different with the 60% - did not see something in this range)

At this "six grids", 20% capacity the 89V are ~90% of the maximum battery voltage available.

Once battery is down to 90% (voltage wise), maximum speed is down to 90%, too - there is a direct correlation.

22 minutes ago, Andy Huang said:

so this rider caused a power outage at a low voltage

The 24s10p battery can at 89V provide without any problems the same power, as needed for EUCs peak burdens like fully charged,

It seemed to be just a "very normal" overlean, maybe pushing to much on the pedal dips after beeing shortly airborne...

For more details on how overlean "work": https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do=findComment&comment=107721

Could also be, that the sudden peak burden activated some current throttling and so some a bit "premature overlean" happrned?

 

[Andy Huang]

19 minutes ago, Chriull said:

抱歉-您正在將能量（Wh，剩餘電池電量）與功率（W）混合在一起！

（顯示的容量（由於固件直接從電壓計算得出）僅在使電池靜置一段時間後才有效！）

??? （對不起，如果您的意思是與60％有所不同-在此範圍內未看到任何內容）

在這個“六個網格”處，容量為20％的89V約為可用最大電池電壓的90％。

一旦電池電量降低到90％（電壓方向），最大速度也降低到90％-存在直接關係。

24s10p電池可以在89V電壓下毫無問題地提供相同的功率，這是EUC峰值負荷（如充滿電）所需的功率，

這似乎只是“非常正常”的過度舉動，也許是在不久後空降後蜂擁而至，踩下了很多踏板踏板...

有關如何“超量”工作的更多詳細信息，請訪問：https ://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do = findComment&comment = 107721 

也可能是突然的峰值負擔激活了一些電流節流，而讓某些“過早的過剩”發生了嗎？

 

Sorry, I may not express it clearly.

This table is based on the amount of electricity converted from the voltage on the wheel.  

What I want to express is that when the voltage is 91.68V, the LCD screen should appear as a bar with 4 bars.  (The voltage value will appear after long pressing the OK button for eight seconds)

[Chriull]

24 minutes ago, Andy Huang said:

Sorry, I may not express it clearly.

This table is based on the amount of electricity converted from the voltage on the wheel.  

What I want to express is that when the voltage is 91.68V, the LCD screen should appear as a bar with 4 bars.  (The voltage value will appear after long pressing the OK button for eight seconds)

Ah, indeed! The bars go down very slowly (from 8-6 bars) while capacity is already down to 20%!

One "reasoning" for this could be the huge battery? That the battery is powerfull and ok most of the time, and they want to show in detail the last ~quater of the capacity!

... but just guessing ...

Edit: i'm with you - riders not knowing this system are easily in danger!

Edited July 9, 2020 by Chriull

[Andy Huang]

26 minutes ago, Chriull said:

確實如此！條的下降非常緩慢（從8-6條），而容量已經下降到20％！

一個“原因”可能是巨大的電池？電池在大多數情況下是功能強大且可以的，他們想詳細顯示容量的最後四分之一！

...但是只是猜測...

編輯：我和你在一起-不知道該系統的騎手很容易陷入危險！

Glad you understand what I mean. 👍🎉🎊

Obviously, the electricity meter does not match the voltage value.  

As you said, some people are in danger because they don’t understand.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Andy Huang said:

SHERMAN		電壓(V)	電量(WH)
100%	4.2	100.8	3528	8BAR
90%	4.06	97.44	3069.36
80%	3.98	95.52	2674.56
70%	3.92	94.08	2304.96	7BAR
60%	3.87	92.88	1950.48
50%	3.82	91.68	1604.4
40%	3.79	90.96	1273.44
30%	3.77	90.48	950.04
20%	3.74	89.76	628.32	6BAR
10%	3.68	88.32	309.12	5BAR
5%	3.45	82.8	144.9	3BAR
3%	3.25	78	81.9	2 LOW
2%	3.15	75.6	52.92	1 BACK
0%	3	72	0

And so according to your table and this screenshot of the end of this video above

their stated ~60% battery state was wrong - because there are about 5-6 out of 8 bars meaning 10-20% of battery left!

And by this only ~75% of maximum speed possible - sounds like a very sound explanation of this.

45 minutes ago, Andy Huang said:

Sorry, I may not express it clearly.

Sorry for me not understanding it - but slowly i get it! Great Point!

 

1 hour ago, Andy Huang said:

This is the test value of the first wheel from Taiwan.  

You think this is still their system?

[Andy Huang]

10 minutes ago, Chriull said:

因此，根據您的表格和上面這段視頻結尾的屏幕截圖

您認為這仍然是他們的系統嗎？

Unfortunately, I can't have more information to confirm these

[Tazarinho]

It could also lead to people massively overestimating remaining range and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere, having to drag a 35 kg wheel back with them for several km's.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Tazarinho said:

It could also lead to people massively overestimating remaining range and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere, having to drag a 35 kg wheel back with them for several km's.

I'm releasing my full range test results today.

[Chriull]

On 7/9/2020 at 12:37 PM, Andy Huang said:

SHERMAN		電壓(V)	電量(WH)
100%	4.2	100.8	3528	8BAR
90%	4.06	97.44	3069.36
80%	3.98	95.52	2674.56
70%	3.92	94.08	2304.96	7BAR
60%	3.87	92.88	1950.48
50%	3.82	91.68	1604.4
40%	3.79	90.96	1273.44
30%	3.77	90.48	950.04
20%	3.74	89.76	628.32	6BAR
10%	3.68	88.32	309.12	5BAR
5%	3.45	82.8	144.9	3BAR
3%	3.25	78	81.9	2 LOW
2%	3.15	75.6	52.92	1 BACK
0%	3	72	0

I made a graph out of this numbers:

btw: @Andy Huang - what's the meaning of the 100%-0%? The charge % shown by the Veteran Sherman? How do you come to the Wh numbers?

For the % (green line in the graph) i do not see the meaning?!

The red line is the "conventional" charge % (over cell voltage) from 4.16V for 100% and 3.15V(1) for 0%.

In purple the reduced max reachable speed (in % of some max) by the lower battery voltage.

And in yellow the number of bars (out of the eight - shown on right y-axis).

In the beginning the bars "fall much to slow", then they start to follow again the "conventional %" again, as it seems...

 

(1) Not sure if this should be downto some 74V (3.1V per cell) for the sherman?