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davinche

[WARNING] Gotway Nikola 100v 1800WH Battery Fire

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Posted (edited)

(not directed at any one person)

It is unethical to keep spreading the Tesla car battery rumor without evidence. Tesla prompted the development of larger 21700 cell for its vehicles, other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable).

Some Chinese manufacturers make very low quality cells that are put in wrappers to look like name brand cells--this is not exclusive to 21700 cells, some companies copy everything from workout DVDs to clothing (the fashion industry has been plagued by knockoffs for decades).
(Note: Tesla cells have no plastic sleeve.)

My understanding is Tesla car batteries are laser etched to track product geneology (not like the below cell which is an empty showpiece, and to address volume considerations it may be Lot Number only), so opening any first generation Gotway 21700 pack would address the rumor.

I think the rumor is probably false given Tesla cars themselves are only recently available in China, so there are no old vehicles to salvage cells from, and new "budget" cells are really, really cheap there. Also, Tesla re-purposes their own batteries, so those cells are not available for third-parties to salvage. (Some third-party reseller may have gotten hold of some used Tesla cells, but Gotway probably would not use them for several logistical reasons.) 

tesla-battery.jpg

Edited by WI_Hedgehog

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17 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Otherwise I could see EUCs being banned as firetraps.

If it keeps happening it's very likely, The massive crackdown on hoverboards just a couple of years ago is a perfect example

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

(not directed at any one person)

It is unethical to keep spreading the Tesla car battery rumor without evidence. Tesla prompted the development of larger 21700 cell for its vehicles, other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable).

Some Chinese manufacturers make very low quality cells that are put in wrappers to look like name brand cells--this is not exclusive to 21700 cells, some companies copy everything from workout DVDs to clothing (the fashion industry has been plagued by knockoffs for decades).
(Note: Tesla cells have no plastic sleeve.)

My understanding is Tesla car batteries are laser etched to track product geneology (not like the below cell which is an empty showpiece, and to address volume considerations it may be Lot Number only), so opening any first generation Gotway 21700 pack would address the rumor.

I think the rumor is probably false given Tesla cars themselves are only recently available in China, so there are no old vehicles to salvage cells from, and new "budget" cells are really, really cheap there. Also, Tesla re-purposes their own batteries, so those cells are not available for third-parties to salvage. (Some third-party reseller may have gotten hold of some used Tesla cells, but Gotway probably would not use them for several logistical reasons.) 

Strong disagree here, sorry.

You realize, Tesla does not outsource their Panasonic collaboration 21700 model NCR21700A to any other company or distributor, right?

By all reports, they are struggling to even make enough batteries for their now 4 models of ev cars & trucks, a major bottleneck for them in car production, a key reason why they've resorted to bank-rolling building their own Gigafactory largely for in-house battery production, instead of just depending on outsourced Panasonic & LG owned manufacturing (whose resources they are also competing with other lithium-battery hungry customer companies like Apple, Samsung, etc.) 

Don't take my word on all this, Google it.

 

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

Knowing all this, is it such a leap of faith to think 3rd party China battery distributors couldn't source re-salvaged Tesla wreckage cells from all across the world, or have a connect to Panasonic factories to siphon off cells via a paid in-house confidant? After all, China distributors have for a fact used warehouses in other countries to skirt China trade tariffs.

Additionally, if you follow the battery forums (vape/powerwall) like I occasionally do, you'll know that fake cells replicating the appearance of top manufacturer cells is an actual reality, when put through cell drainage tests, etc.

 

Edited by houseofjob

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6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

We're all wondering the same thing. Also, what "problems" did they have with the panasonic cells.

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Just now, davinche said:

We're all wondering the same thing. Also, what "problems" did they have with the panasonic cells.

If they even WERE true Pano's (all it takes is one sketchy new supplier).

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The tesla cells are so cheap that there's no point in trying to make conterfeit ones. They're being sold in china for 1usd each. That's panasonic 4800-5000mAh 21700 with the tesla brand on the negative side. The sellers also provide discharge tests which show ~4900mAh.

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18 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Strong disagree here, sorry.

You realize, Tesla does not outsource their Panasonic collaboration 21700 model NCR21700A to any other company or distributor, right?

By all reports, they are struggling to even make enough batteries for their now 4 models of ev cars & trucks, a major bottleneck for them in car production, a key reason why they've resorted to bank-rolling building their own Gigafactory largely for in-house battery production, instead of just depending on outsourced Panasonic & LG owned manufacturing (whose resources they are also competing with other lithium-battery hungry customer companies like Apple, Samsung, etc.) 

Don't take my word on all this, Google it.

 

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

Knowing all this, is it such a leap of faith to think 3rd party China battery distributors couldn't source re-salvaged Tesla wreckage cells from all across the world, or have a connect to Panasonic factories to siphon off cells via a paid in-house confidant? After all, China distributors have for a fact used warehouses in other countries to skirt China trade tariffs.

Additionally, if you follow the battery forums (vape/powerwall) like I occasionally do, you'll know that fake cells replicating the appearance of top manufacturer cells is an actual reality, when put through cell drainage tests, etc.

 

I think you read my post incorrectly, as my position is since TESLA automotive cells are not available to anyone but TESLA, they are only used in-house, and TESLA doesn't have enough cells for their own use, the cells in Gotway wheels most likely aren't new TESLA cells. If TESLA/Panasonic was selling TESLA cells to third-parties, it would be big news.

If for no other reason than real TESLA cells are very traceable, Gotway probably wouldn't buy stolen ("siphoned") cells to put in new EUCs. If Gotway was using TESLA cells, there should be evidence of it by now. Without any evidence at all, it is not proper to imply Gotway is being disreputable in that manner.

I stated knockoff ("fake") cells are a reality, as are many other items. While a third-party could put knockoff or recycled cells in, so far nobody has reported finding cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway (that I'm aware of).

 

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The tesla cells are so cheap that there's no point in trying to make conterfeit ones. They're being sold in china for 1usd each. That's panasonic 4800-5000mAh 21700 with the tesla brand on the negative side. The sellers also provide discharge tests which show ~4900mAh.

Real TESLA cells are not available anywhere but inside TESLA batteries. As I stated previously, "other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable)." Real TESLA cells do have the highest energy density, but are not as well suited to applications outside TESLA vehicles--other chemistries do better.

Am I wrong? Has someone found cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway??? I've only read that one seller was claiming Gotway's 21700 cells were sourced from salvaged TESLA batteries, which is why they were selling Gotways with 18650 cells. Members suspected the claim stemmed from them having a stock of Gotways with 18650 cells that they needed to sell. One seller in China making an unsupported claim. No wheels reported to have cells marked TESLA.

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On 6/3/2020 at 8:01 AM, Dave Wood said:

If it keeps happening it's very likely, The massive crackdown on hoverboards just a couple of years ago is a perfect example

yup they removed original good cell and mix them with different capacity cells.  

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2020 at 12:46 AM, davinche said:

I used the fast charger from ewheels. But I've never charged it to full. I've only used the 3A, 90% setting

Just FYI, you should charge it once in a while to 100% and leave it on the charger for a few hours so the BMS can balance the batteries. If you only ever charge to 90%, eventually one of the cells will be so out of balance that the whole pack shuts down, wheel powers off, etc. Then you have to dismantle the pack and replace or charge just that one battery. They recommend you charge to 100% once every 10 charges.

(Ooops. Sorry for the repeat. Looks like somebody else mentioned this later in the thread.)

Edited by erk1024

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Just now, Archee Jan Bloch said:

original battery was supposed to be 20-70.. colab between Sanyo/Panasonic and Tesla.  Tesla then asked to have 21-70 but still made by Panasonic for them.    Panasonic made 20700A, 20700B and 20700C series and for Tesla made 21700 cells which was 7 amp discharge with capacity around 5000mA, at that time battery manufacturers took the standard of the dimensions and use that as new casing for their cells.  21700 was made by Samsung, LG Chem, Basen, Monicel etc on top Panasonic created his own version or the cell which is wrapped.  Tesla stock cell is not wrapped as it sits in array that has cooled by coolant.  The Chinese market was also flooded with the empty shells where they would take 18650 cell and put inside 21700 casing, rewrap and sold as.   whatever made most money 

also their top is a bit different inside Tesla cars than standard flat top

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So I learned something new, thank you @houseofjob !!  Those sellers do indeed say Panasonic 21700 to this day! As far as I could find, Panasonic makes only one 21700 packaged cell, exclusively for TESLA.

@Mike Sacristan seems to have gotten to the bottom of where the used cells are coming from. While there aren't any laser markings (my mistake), there are the three unique squiggles on the bottom of the cell as Mike mentions, though there is also the ultrasonic weld joint from the fuseable wire on the top:

s-l1600.jpg

The seller adds various colored wrappers.

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Posted (edited)

Marketing lies, misleading information, overstating specs.... isnt the lack of morality in manufacturing and sales/marketing tactics so much fun? Click-bait, bait and switch, limited liability excuses, fuck me its enough to make a man go postal. Hell, even kids with videos that generate nearly no revenue, are resorting to these tactics. At this point, I would pay DEARLY to patron a company that isnt shady. Claiming ignorance is even worse, as these are the people we have to rely on. Gone are the days when you can safely assume a manufacturer is doing quality control checks and investing in ANY sort of testing or deep thought, before releasing a product. Us consumers are now paying dearly to test and evaluate this shit, when it SHOULD be already done, BEFORE releasing to markets. Unfortunately the choices are so damn slim. Distributors that wade thru this nonsense and have to take losses because of the shitty nature of their represented manufacturers (ewheels for example), are REALLY sticking their necks out there to try and mitigate such nonsense.

Edited by ShanesPlanet

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Posted (edited)

The stand-alone balancers that I have used balanced cells whether the battery was full or not.  I don't think "100%" matters, it's not like the balancer knows this.  What you want are the same cells of the same age and usage history.  The balancer cannot drain the hot cells very fast at all.  The point is that continuous maintenance stops a large imbalance from developing in the first place.

If they take cells from different cars and mix them all up (even if the same brand / capacity), that's not very good.

Edited by xorbe

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2 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

So I learned something new, thank you @houseofjob !!  Those sellers do indeed say Panasonic 21700 to this day! As far as I could find, Panasonic makes only one 21700 packaged cell, exclusively for TESLA.

giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47956023cb194d7c1d59

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Marketing lies, misleading information, overstating specs.... isnt the lack of morality in manufacturing and sales/marketing tactics so much fun? Click-bait, bait and switch, limited liability excuses, fuck me its enough to make a man go postal. Hell, even kids with videos that generate nearly no revenue, are resorting to these tactics. At this point, I would pay DEARLY to patron a company that isnt shady. Claiming ignorance is even worse, as these are the people we have to rely on. Gone are the days when you can safely assume a manufacturer is doing quality control checks and investing in ANY sort of testing or deep thought, before releasing a product. Us consumers are now paying dearly to test and evaluate this shit, when it SHOULD be already done, BEFORE releasing to markets. Unfortunately the choices are so damn slim. Distributors that wade thru this nonsense and have to take losses because of the shitty nature of their represented manufacturers (ewheels for example), are REALLY sticking their necks out there to try and mitigate such nonsense.

TBF, out of all the PEV markets, I'd say we have it relatively the easiest, as there is far more possibility for deception and chicanery in the bigger escooter market. 

But yeah, proper QC would be nice for sure, so we wouldn't have to buy blind.

 

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The tesla cells are just like the ones on ebay. On the bare metal outer body there's a square barcode on the side and three lines on the negative side. The positive side looks like a bowl basically.

Here's the current tesla motor cell market situation in China. The prices are dropping. Don't be fooled by the shrinkwrap or positive pole, it's the same cell underneath. Tons and tons and tons of cells. They come delivered to the multiple refurbishing factories in complete trailer truck loads. They are sold in bulk measured in tons, not quantities.

Anyway, I just suspect that these are the only kind of 21700 panasonic cells in circulation.

mmexport1591312024837_compress76.jpg

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I've been looking for cells for some DIY  projects for 2 years now in China. Around 6-7 months ago there were absolutely no panasonic 21700 cells on the market. They just sort of came all at once. I don't know what caused it. 

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Notice the red marker writing on the cells. The chinese didn't write that.

Remember the cells are rejected in entire groups or chains.

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Posted (edited)

The Veteran Sherman has Panasonic NCR18650GA, is there any much chance these are of shady origin? Or are the issues mostly linked to rejected car batteries?

Edited by null

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