[WARNING] Gotway Nikola 100v 1800WH Battery Fire

[WI_Hedgehog]

(not directed at any one person)

It is unethical to keep spreading the Tesla car battery rumor without evidence. Tesla prompted the development of larger 21700 cell for its vehicles, other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable).

Some Chinese manufacturers make very low quality cells that are put in wrappers to look like name brand cells--this is not exclusive to 21700 cells, some companies copy everything from workout DVDs to clothing (the fashion industry has been plagued by knockoffs for decades).
(Note: Tesla cells have no plastic sleeve.)

My understanding is Tesla car batteries are laser etched to track product geneology (not like the below cell which is an empty showpiece, and to address volume considerations it may be Lot Number only), so opening any first generation Gotway 21700 pack would address the rumor.

I think the rumor is probably false given Tesla cars themselves are only recently available in China, so there are no old vehicles to salvage cells from, and new "budget" cells are really, really cheap there. Also, Tesla re-purposes their own batteries, so those cells are not available for third-parties to salvage. (Some third-party reseller may have gotten hold of some used Tesla cells, but Gotway probably would not use them for several logistical reasons.) 

Edited June 3, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[Dave Wood]

17 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Otherwise I could see EUCs being banned as firetraps.

If it keeps happening it's very likely, The massive crackdown on hoverboards just a couple of years ago is a perfect example

[Ben Kim]

You all have to understand, Gotway didn't go 21700 for our benefit, they did it for their own.  Consider an M50T actually costs LESS than a Sanyo GA, and has 1550 more mAh per cell.  Then consider they can sell an 1800Wh wheel with only 96 cells vs. a 1845Wh wheel with 144 cells.  I definitely did not see that cost reduction passed on to us. 

 

[houseofjob]

9 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

(not directed at any one person)

It is unethical to keep spreading the Tesla car battery rumor without evidence. Tesla prompted the development of larger 21700 cell for its vehicles, other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable).

Some Chinese manufacturers make very low quality cells that are put in wrappers to look like name brand cells--this is not exclusive to 21700 cells, some companies copy everything from workout DVDs to clothing (the fashion industry has been plagued by knockoffs for decades).
(Note: Tesla cells have no plastic sleeve.)

My understanding is Tesla car batteries are laser etched to track product geneology (not like the below cell which is an empty showpiece, and to address volume considerations it may be Lot Number only), so opening any first generation Gotway 21700 pack would address the rumor.

I think the rumor is probably false given Tesla cars themselves are only recently available in China, so there are no old vehicles to salvage cells from, and new "budget" cells are really, really cheap there. Also, Tesla re-purposes their own batteries, so those cells are not available for third-parties to salvage. (Some third-party reseller may have gotten hold of some used Tesla cells, but Gotway probably would not use them for several logistical reasons.) 

Strong disagree here, sorry.

You realize, Tesla does not outsource their Panasonic collaboration 21700 model NCR21700A to any other company or distributor, right?

By all reports, they are struggling to even make enough batteries for their now 4 models of ev cars & trucks, a major bottleneck for them in car production, a key reason why they've resorted to bank-rolling building their own Gigafactory largely for in-house battery production, instead of just depending on outsourced Panasonic & LG owned manufacturing (whose resources they are also competing with other lithium-battery hungry customer companies like Apple, Samsung, etc.) 

Don't take my word on all this, Google it.

 

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

Knowing all this, is it such a leap of faith to think 3rd party China battery distributors couldn't source re-salvaged Tesla wreckage cells from all across the world, or have a connect to Panasonic factories to siphon off cells via a paid in-house confidant? After all, China distributors have for a fact used warehouses in other countries to skirt China trade tariffs.

Additionally, if you follow the battery forums (vape/powerwall) like I occasionally do, you'll know that fake cells replicating the appearance of top manufacturer cells is an actual reality, when put through cell drainage tests, etc.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by houseofjob

[davinche]

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

We're all wondering the same thing. Also, what "problems" did they have with the panasonic cells.

[houseofjob]

Just now, davinche said:

We're all wondering the same thing. Also, what "problems" did they have with the panasonic cells.

If they even WERE true Pano's (all it takes is one sketchy new supplier).

[alcatraz]

The tesla cells are so cheap that there's no point in trying to make conterfeit ones. They're being sold in china for 1usd each. That's panasonic 4800-5000mAh 21700 with the tesla brand on the negative side. The sellers also provide discharge tests which show ~4900mAh.

[WI_Hedgehog]

18 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Strong disagree here, sorry.

You realize, Tesla does not outsource their Panasonic collaboration 21700 model NCR21700A to any other company or distributor, right?

By all reports, they are struggling to even make enough batteries for their now 4 models of ev cars & trucks, a major bottleneck for them in car production, a key reason why they've resorted to bank-rolling building their own Gigafactory largely for in-house battery production, instead of just depending on outsourced Panasonic & LG owned manufacturing (whose resources they are also competing with other lithium-battery hungry customer companies like Apple, Samsung, etc.) 

Don't take my word on all this, Google it.

 

So, again is my original question: where the hell were they sourcing these marketed "Tesla batteries"?!?

Knowing all this, is it such a leap of faith to think 3rd party China battery distributors couldn't source re-salvaged Tesla wreckage cells from all across the world, or have a connect to Panasonic factories to siphon off cells via a paid in-house confidant? After all, China distributors have for a fact used warehouses in other countries to skirt China trade tariffs.

Additionally, if you follow the battery forums (vape/powerwall) like I occasionally do, you'll know that fake cells replicating the appearance of top manufacturer cells is an actual reality, when put through cell drainage tests, etc.

 

I think you read my post incorrectly, as my position is since TESLA automotive cells are not available to anyone but TESLA, they are only used in-house, and TESLA doesn't have enough cells for their own use, the cells in Gotway wheels most likely aren't new TESLA cells. If TESLA/Panasonic was selling TESLA cells to third-parties, it would be big news.

If for no other reason than real TESLA cells are very traceable, Gotway probably wouldn't buy stolen ("siphoned") cells to put in new EUCs. If Gotway was using TESLA cells, there should be evidence of it by now. Without any evidence at all, it is not proper to imply Gotway is being disreputable in that manner.

I stated knockoff ("fake") cells are a reality, as are many other items. While a third-party could put knockoff or recycled cells in, so far nobody has reported finding cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway (that I'm aware of).

 

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The tesla cells are so cheap that there's no point in trying to make conterfeit ones. They're being sold in china for 1usd each. That's panasonic 4800-5000mAh 21700 with the tesla brand on the negative side. The sellers also provide discharge tests which show ~4900mAh.

Real TESLA cells are not available anywhere but inside TESLA batteries. As I stated previously, "other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable)." Real TESLA cells do have the highest energy density, but are not as well suited to applications outside TESLA vehicles--other chemistries do better.

Am I wrong? Has someone found cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway??? I've only read that one seller was claiming Gotway's 21700 cells were sourced from salvaged TESLA batteries, which is why they were selling Gotways with 18650 cells. Members suspected the claim stemmed from them having a stock of Gotways with 18650 cells that they needed to sell. One seller in China making an unsupported claim. No wheels reported to have cells marked TESLA.

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I stated knockoff ("fake") cells are a reality, as are many other items. While a third-party could put knockoff or recycled cells in, so far nobody has reported finding cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway (that I'm aware of).

-----------

Has someone found cells marked "TESLA" in their Gotway??? I've only read that one seller was claiming Gotway's 21700 cells were sourced from salvaged TESLA batteries, which is why they were selling Gotways with 18650 cells. Members suspected the claim stemmed from them having a stock of Gotways with 18650 cells that they needed to sell. One seller in China making an unsupported claim. No wheels reported to have cells marked TESLA.

These statements are head-scratching if you're in the know of battery communities that live this stuff.

Tesla exclusive Panasonic NCR21700A's don't have the marking "TESLA" on them, they basically have no markings, as they are kept in-house. Again, don't believe me, search eBay/Google.

[eBay: X2 Tesla Model 3 Battery 2170 Cell 21700 battery]

 

1 hour ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I think you read my post incorrectly, as my position is since TESLA automotive cells are not available to anyone but TESLA, they are only used in-house, and TESLA doesn't have enough cells for their own use, the cells in Gotway wheels most likely aren't new TESLA cells. If TESLA/Panasonic was selling TESLA cells to third-parties, it would be big news.

If for no other reason than real TESLA cells are very traceable, Gotway probably wouldn't buy stolen ("siphoned") cells to put in new EUCs. If Gotway was using TESLA cells, there should be evidence of it by now. Without any evidence at all, it is not proper to imply Gotway is being disreputable in that manner.

Perhaps I did read you incorrectly yes, but this is still inconsistent with the stated initial Nikola 21700 release, where most of the usual suspect dealers referred to the 21700 cells being used early on as Tesla 21700 or Panasonic 21700, aka the mysterious Tesla-exclusive, non-commercially available NCR21700A cell in question.

You can still see the verbiage in the product pages below.

And if you're trying to claim it's another Panasonic 21700, Panasonic does not have other commercially available 21700 format cells, only the 20700 Sanyo-branded ones that pre-date this Tesla-Panasonic collaboration.

 

eWheels [source]

 

ecodrift [source]

 

Loomo [source]

 

1 hour ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

Without any evidence at all, it is not proper to imply Gotway is being disreputable in that manner.

FWIW, it doesn't have to be Gotway that's disreputable, it can very well be their outsourced supplier.

This statement proves to me you are wildly unfamiliar with the culture in still-Communist China and how they conduct business. Just search for "vaccine scandal", "food scandal", "fake beer" etc. etc.  

If you haven't lived and breathed daily life in China, as a fluent Chinese speaker, please don't assume and project your Western ethics and values there, business is much much different there than in the US. The corruption of the leadership trickles down to the people, leading to a very 没办法 / Mei banfa / nothing-can-be-done mentality regarding policing/correcting such disreputable practices.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by houseofjob

[Mike Sacristan]

Loomo and Wheel Riders have been making 21700 battery mods for quite some time now. I am pretty sure these are the ones used in the NYC MSX 100v 2200Wh.
As well as the Monster 3108Wh. And more recently the Tesla 1480Wh and now the Nikola 2660Wh.

One of our riders has a Monster 3108Wh. Another is awaiting his.
Two riders are awaiting their Nikola+ 2660Wh from Loomo.

My friend asked them and got this answer:

 

I was unhappy with the given answer as I didn't find Gucci to be a proper cell name.
So he asked further and they answered with the following:

And from Wheel Riders when asking about the Monster:

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Mike Sacristan
edited Wh

[Archee Jan Bloch]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:01 AM, Dave Wood said:

If it keeps happening it's very likely, The massive crackdown on hoverboards just a couple of years ago is a perfect example

yup they removed original good cell and mix them with different capacity cells.  

[erk1024]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:46 AM, davinche said:

I used the fast charger from ewheels. But I've never charged it to full. I've only used the 3A, 90% setting

Just FYI, you should charge it once in a while to 100% and leave it on the charger for a few hours so the BMS can balance the batteries. If you only ever charge to 90%, eventually one of the cells will be so out of balance that the whole pack shuts down, wheel powers off, etc. Then you have to dismantle the pack and replace or charge just that one battery. They recommend you charge to 100% once every 10 charges.

(Ooops. Sorry for the repeat. Looks like somebody else mentioned this later in the thread.)

Edited June 4, 2020 by erk1024

[Archee Jan Bloch]

48 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Loomo and Wheel Riders have been making 21700 battery mods for quite some time now. I am pretty sure these are the ones used in the NYC MSX 100v 2200Wh.
As well as the Monster 3108Wh. And more recently the Tesla 1480Wh and now the Nikola 2660Wh.

One of our riders has a Monster 3108Wh. Another is awaiting his.
Two riders are awaiting their Nikola+ 2660Wh from Loomo.

My friend asked them and got this answer:

 

I was unhappy with the given answer as I didn't find Gucci to be a proper cell name.
So he asked further and they answered with the following:

And from Wheel Riders when asking about the Monster:

 

loomo is also using rewrap cells. we took one of the packs apart however be don't believe their BMS is balancing only over charge protection is enabled. because unlike on MSX 2200 the BMS on 3108 pack is just very small.  The MSX is good BMS but Loomo is soldering the balance leads on the PCB instead of using JST plug made by manufacturer. The BMS has diodes to burn the excess energy so the MSX is better BMS that. in Monster however using one BMS for 5p or 6 p especially for people who ride a lot and charge a lot is creating huge imbalance between cells because it can balance only at 50 mA

[Archee Jan Bloch]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:54 AM, WI_Hedgehog said:

(not directed at any one person)

It is unethical to keep spreading the Tesla car battery rumor without evidence. Tesla prompted the development of larger 21700 cell for its vehicles, other cell manufacturers saw it as a good idea and copied the cell dimensions (the chemistry is specific to Tesla and otherwise unavailable).

Some Chinese manufacturers make very low quality cells that are put in wrappers to look like name brand cells--this is not exclusive to 21700 cells, some companies copy everything from workout DVDs to clothing (the fashion industry has been plagued by knockoffs for decades).
(Note: Tesla cells have no plastic sleeve.)

My understanding is Tesla car batteries are laser etched to track product geneology (not like the below cell which is an empty showpiece, and to address volume considerations it may be Lot Number only), so opening any first generation Gotway 21700 pack would address the rumor.

I think the rumor is probably false given Tesla cars themselves are only recently available in China, so there are no old vehicles to salvage cells from, and new "budget" cells are really, really cheap there. Also, Tesla re-purposes their own batteries, so those cells are not available for third-parties to salvage. (Some third-party reseller may have gotten hold of some used Tesla cells, but Gotway probably would not use them for several logistical reasons.) 

original battery was supposed to be 20-70.. colab between Sanyo/Panasonic and Tesla.  Tesla then asked to have 21-70 but still made by Panasonic for them.    Panasonic made 20700A, 20700B and 20700C series and for Tesla made 21700 cells which was 7 amp discharge with capacity around 5000mA, at that time battery manufacturers took the standard of the dimensions and use that as new casing for their cells.  21700 was made by Samsung, LG Chem, Basen, Monicel etc on top Panasonic created his own version or the cell which is wrapped.  Tesla stock cell is not wrapped as it sits in array that has cooled by coolant.  The Chinese market was also flooded with the empty shells where they would take 18650 cell and put inside 21700 casing, rewrap and sold as.   whatever made most money 

[Archee Jan Bloch]

Just now, Archee Jan Bloch said:

original battery was supposed to be 20-70.. colab between Sanyo/Panasonic and Tesla.  Tesla then asked to have 21-70 but still made by Panasonic for them.    Panasonic made 20700A, 20700B and 20700C series and for Tesla made 21700 cells which was 7 amp discharge with capacity around 5000mA, at that time battery manufacturers took the standard of the dimensions and use that as new casing for their cells.  21700 was made by Samsung, LG Chem, Basen, Monicel etc on top Panasonic created his own version or the cell which is wrapped.  Tesla stock cell is not wrapped as it sits in array that has cooled by coolant.  The Chinese market was also flooded with the empty shells where they would take 18650 cell and put inside 21700 casing, rewrap and sold as.   whatever made most money 

also their top is a bit different inside Tesla cars than standard flat top

[WI_Hedgehog]

So I learned something new, thank you @houseofjob !!  Those sellers do indeed say Panasonic 21700 to this day! As far as I could find, Panasonic makes only one 21700 packaged cell, exclusively for TESLA.

@Mike Sacristan seems to have gotten to the bottom of where the used cells are coming from. While there aren't any laser markings (my mistake), there are the three unique squiggles on the bottom of the cell as Mike mentions, though there is also the ultrasonic weld joint from the fuseable wire on the top:

The seller adds various colored wrappers.

[.....]

Marketing lies, misleading information, overstating specs.... isnt the lack of morality in manufacturing and sales/marketing tactics so much fun? Click-bait, bait and switch, limited liability excuses, fuck me its enough to make a man go postal. Hell, even kids with videos that generate nearly no revenue, are resorting to these tactics. At this point, I would pay DEARLY to patron a company that isnt shady. Claiming ignorance is even worse, as these are the people we have to rely on. Gone are the days when you can safely assume a manufacturer is doing quality control checks and investing in ANY sort of testing or deep thought, before releasing a product. Us consumers are now paying dearly to test and evaluate this shit, when it SHOULD be already done, BEFORE releasing to markets. Unfortunately the choices are so damn slim. Distributors that wade thru this nonsense and have to take losses because of the shitty nature of their represented manufacturers (ewheels for example), are REALLY sticking their necks out there to try and mitigate such nonsense.

Edited June 4, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Ben Kim]

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Marketing lies, misleading information, overstating specs.... isnt the lack of morality in manufacturing and sales/marketing tactics so much fun? Click-bait, bait and switch, limited liability excuses, fuck me its enough to make a man go postal. Hell, even kids with videos that generate nearly no revenue, are resorting to these tactics. At this point, I would pay DEARLY to patron a company who isnt shady. Unfortunately the choices are so damn slim. Distributors that wade thru this nonsense and have to take losses because of the shitty nature of their represented manufacturers (ewheels for example), are REALLY sticking their necks out there to try and mitigate such nonsense.

When it comes to EUCs, you need to ask the right questions and hope you get the right answers, because at face value a lot of the tech specifications are misleading.  e.g. Monster Pro "omg 4000W motor it must go 60 mph" "no, if anything it could have a lower top speed" "HOW COULD THIS BE??" 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Ben Kim

[xorbe]

The stand-alone balancers that I have used balanced cells whether the battery was full or not.  I don't think "100%" matters, it's not like the balancer knows this.  What you want are the same cells of the same age and usage history.  The balancer cannot drain the hot cells very fast at all.  The point is that continuous maintenance stops a large imbalance from developing in the first place.

If they take cells from different cars and mix them all up (even if the same brand / capacity), that's not very good.

Edited June 4, 2020 by xorbe

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

So I learned something new, thank you @houseofjob !!  Those sellers do indeed say Panasonic 21700 to this day! As far as I could find, Panasonic makes only one 21700 packaged cell, exclusively for TESLA.

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Marketing lies, misleading information, overstating specs.... isnt the lack of morality in manufacturing and sales/marketing tactics so much fun? Click-bait, bait and switch, limited liability excuses, fuck me its enough to make a man go postal. Hell, even kids with videos that generate nearly no revenue, are resorting to these tactics. At this point, I would pay DEARLY to patron a company that isnt shady. Claiming ignorance is even worse, as these are the people we have to rely on. Gone are the days when you can safely assume a manufacturer is doing quality control checks and investing in ANY sort of testing or deep thought, before releasing a product. Us consumers are now paying dearly to test and evaluate this shit, when it SHOULD be already done, BEFORE releasing to markets. Unfortunately the choices are so damn slim. Distributors that wade thru this nonsense and have to take losses because of the shitty nature of their represented manufacturers (ewheels for example), are REALLY sticking their necks out there to try and mitigate such nonsense.

TBF, out of all the PEV markets, I'd say we have it relatively the easiest, as there is far more possibility for deception and chicanery in the bigger escooter market. 

But yeah, proper QC would be nice for sure, so we wouldn't have to buy blind.

 

[alcatraz]

The tesla cells are just like the ones on ebay. On the bare metal outer body there's a square barcode on the side and three lines on the negative side. The positive side looks like a bowl basically.

Here's the current tesla motor cell market situation in China. The prices are dropping. Don't be fooled by the shrinkwrap or positive pole, it's the same cell underneath. Tons and tons and tons of cells. They come delivered to the multiple refurbishing factories in complete trailer truck loads. They are sold in bulk measured in tons, not quantities.

Anyway, I just suspect that these are the only kind of 21700 panasonic cells in circulation.

[alcatraz]

I've been looking for cells for some DIY  projects for 2 years now in China. Around 6-7 months ago there were absolutely no panasonic 21700 cells on the market. They just sort of came all at once. I don't know what caused it. 

[alcatraz]

[alcatraz]

Notice the red marker writing on the cells. The chinese didn't write that.

Remember the cells are rejected in entire groups or chains.

[null]

The Veteran Sherman has Panasonic NCR18650GA, is there any much chance these are of shady origin? Or are the issues mostly linked to rejected car batteries?

Edited June 5, 2020 by null