is there a wheel that allows you to turn off horizontal shut off?

[musk]

Accelerometers and Gyroscopes are commonly packaged in the same chip because they are often used together in a complimentary way.  Gyroscopes give a signal which is much less "noisy", and it seems like most euc manufacturers are primarily using gyroscopes for their angle sensing.  However, there could be an accelerometer inside the wheel already as one of these chip packages, and they could poll the gravity force to see if it's still strongly pointing "downward" while the gyro says it's tilting.  This combination would profile someone cruising the edge of a bowl.

Edited June 6, 2020 by musk

[Rywokast]

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I suspect we're never going to agree on this but you can improve the stability when swinging your phone in an arc by putting it flat on a table while moving it (best to put it on a book so not to scratch any lenses). The phone will be flat but you'll still see the bubble move.

you could prove it by going to a skate park and riding parallel to a wall, get it on video

[xorbe]

Wall riding, this is an extremely interesting question.  I'm not sure if it could work as is or not -- maybe if you were going fast enough.

[mike_bike_kite]

Perhaps I should put the question a different way. Gotway was having issues with their wheels not turning off when the rider fell so they wanted to implement a 45 degree cutoff. They could just do it the simple way and use the built in accelerometer that just outputs the lean angle but obviously this would be fooled into thinking it was upright when it was going round fast corners (such as the wall of death). Or would they add in all the complexity of gyros (or the direction of the Earth's magnetic field as someone suggested) to somehow know that the wheel is not balanced upright but is actually going round a really fast corner ... just so that they could then cut the power to the wheel  

What do folks think is more likely?

[Rywokast]

24 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps I should put the question a different way. Gotway was having issues with their wheels not turning off when the rider fell so they wanted to implement a 45 degree cutoff. They could just do it the simple way and use the built in accelerometer that just outputs the lean angle but obviously this would be fooled into thinking it was upright when it was going round fast corners (such as the wall of death). Or would they add in all the complexity of gyros (or the direction of the Earth's magnetic field as someone suggested) to somehow know that the wheel is not balanced upright but is actually going round a really fast corner ... just so that they could then cut the power to the wheel  

What do folks think is more likely?

its gotway... theyre not known for taking rider safety into account.. people complained about the wheels smashing themselves up so they fixed it.. i can assure you they didnt add shit, that would add to the cost.. whatever sensors its using were pre existing they simply added it in new firmware going forwards, the same way every other manufacturer has always had it lol. i believe it was starting with late msuper v3s.. chooch is literally the only person i have heard of this happening to, not that im sure it doesnt happen to others but not consistently, i dont think its a widespread problem as the vast majority of people would never come across it

edit: maybe gotway is just dumb and are the ones that utilize all sensors, whereas other manufacturers would only use the one? because i have only ever heard of this issue come up in any way with gotway wheels, yet i know all other manufacturers have always done it

Edited June 14, 2020 by Rywokast

[RayRay]

On 6/14/2020 at 12:33 PM, xorbe said:

Wall riding, this is an extremely interesting question.  I'm not sure if it could work as is or not -- maybe if you were going fast enough.

As is, could a wheel ever pull-off a loop? (Even if you went really, really fast...) 

Edited June 25, 2020 by RayRay

[agronick]

An EUC needs to stay straight up no matter what forces it is encountering. I'm pretty sure a MEMS gyroscope is integral to how the whole thing works. An accelerometer would not keep it straight up because straight up would be the direction that it is moving. And they a really cheep. Less than $1 when purchased in bulk.

[zeroSIXzero]

The motor cuts off at certain angles to make sure it stops if you fall off and the wheel start to tumble. A good function. Otherwise it could continue spinning full speed into a very dangerous situation.

But me to would like the sideways angle limit to be greater than 45deg as it shut off several times during velodrom turns.
And the wheel MUST know the angle using some sort of gyro as it turned off at the same angle everytime no matter of speed going thru the turn. Without the gyro it would not know it was at an angle when at speed in the turn.

Do not beleive these censors are very expensive as they are used in small cheap drones all the time.

I read somewhere that KS wheels now can adjust this in the app?

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, zeroSIXzero said:

The motor cuts off at certain angles to make sure it stops if you fall off and the wheel start to tumble. A good function. Otherwise it could continue spinning full speed into a very dangerous situation.

Thank you for your insight.

1 hour ago, zeroSIXzero said:

But me to would like the sideways angle limit to be greater than 45deg as it shut off several times during velodrom turns.
And the wheel MUST know the angle using some sort of gyro as it turned off at the same angle everytime no matter of speed going thru the turn.

Do you have video evidence of this?

On 6/28/2020 at 8:33 PM, agronick said:

An EUC needs to stay straight up no matter what forces it is encountering. I'm pretty sure a MEMS gyroscope is integral to how the whole thing works.

It stays upright only on one axis as that allows you to have control over acceleration or braking. It actually leans over quite a bit while cornering. The faster you turn then the further over it leans. The discussion is whether it will cut out if you corner quickly and lean the wheel over more than 45 degrees (ie would the manufacturer deliberately put in extra components and programming to cut the wheel off while you're corning quickly) or would they just do it the simple way which only cuts the wheel when you fall off it?

On 6/28/2020 at 8:33 PM, agronick said:

An accelerometer would not keep it straight up because straight up would be the direction that it is moving.

I can't decide if it's a language thing, a logic thing or whether your world is simply different to mine.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The discussion is whether it will cut out if you corner quickly and lean the wheel over more than 45 degrees (ie would the manufacturer deliberately put in extra components and programming to cut the wheel off while you're corning quickly) or would they just do it the simple way which only cuts the wheel when you fall off it?

Seems you are still undecided. Ask yourself this: If the wheel’s sense of up would be confused by angular acceleration (accelerating away from the riding direction, ie turning at speed), wouldn’t it then be confused by just regular braking on a straight line as well?

 We all know it isn’t though, since the wheel is aware of the true horizon no matter how fast you brake or accelerate.

Can’t we therefore conclude that acceleration on the horizontal plane cannot confuse the wheel’s ability to know the true horizon?

[mike_bike_kite]

I'm definitely not undecided! I simply think you guys are plain wrong  I don't think the wheel ever gets confused by up. I also don't think the wheel has a clue where the true horizon is - it should just care which way feels like down and that should be more than enough to control the wheel.

[Rywokast]

10 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm definitely not undecided! I simply think you guys are plain wrong  I don't think the wheel ever gets confused by up. I also don't think the wheel has a clue where the true horizon is - it should just care which way feels like down and that should be more than enough to control the wheel.

lol youve seen many videos now proving this but for some reason refuse to believe video evidence... so its pointless to argue the point any further, believe what you want to believe it doesnt matter... i guess the op is just crazy and he could do this all along!

[Rywokast]

On 6/6/2020 at 7:01 AM, mike_bike_kite said:

If it's not on video then it didn't happen

according to you having it happen on video makes no difference whatsoever lol

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

lol youve seen many videos now proving this but for some reason refuse to believe video evidence... so its pointless to argue the point any further, believe what you want to believe it doesnt matter... i guess the op is just crazy and he could do this all along!

All I've seen is Couch falling off on a sandy trail and blame it on a cut off. On the same video I also saw him ride round corners at similar angles and not fall off. I even saw him fall on a fairly level bit of track. I'm not putting down Couch's riding ability, he's a million times better than me, I'm just saying that's not evidence. It's also doesn't make sense to program a wheel to cut out while you're riding it just because you corner too hard when it's far simpler to program the wheel just to cut off only when the rider has fallen off.

Doing the cut off correctly can't be difficult, if it was me I'd just cut off the wheel when it was beyond tilt back speed and the angle was over 45 degrees - that wouldn't require gyroscopes or the Earth's magnetism and would be very simple to program. The other benefit would be the wheel wouldn't cut out while you were riding it. I'm fairly sure the engineers who build these wheels could come up with an better solution. 

[Rywokast]

16 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

All I've seen is Couch falling off on a sandy trail and blame it on a cut off. On the same video I also saw him ride round corners at similar angles and not fall off. I even saw him fall on a fairly level bit of track. I'm not putting down Couch's riding ability, he's a million times better than me, I'm just saying that's not evidence. It's also doesn't make sense to program a wheel to cut out while you're riding it just because you corner too hard when it's far simpler to program the wheel just to cut off only when the rider has fallen off.

Doing the cut off correctly can't be difficult, if it was me I'd just cut off the wheel when it was beyond tilt back speed and the angle was over 45 degrees - that wouldn't require gyroscopes or the Earth's magnetism and would be very simple to program. The other benefit would be the wheel wouldn't cut out while you were riding it. I'm fairly sure the engineers who build these wheels could come up with an better solution. 

why would the wheel be beyond tilt back speed? it's so when you drop out it doesn't dance around and smash itself up.. though I agree it should be made so it can't do it with a rider on

[mike_bike_kite]

2 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

why would the wheel be beyond tilt back speed? 

This was just back of an envelope thinking - if you drop the wheel onto it's side then the wheel speeds up as there's no friction any more. If the angle is also beyond 45 degrees then that would be a good time to cut off the wheel. If the angle was even steeper then you could lower the cut off speed. Another improvement might be to actively brake the wheel till the wheel stops then cut off the motor. It was just a thought so I could easily be wrong with the logic here. 

[Rywokast]

32 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

This was just back of an envelope thinking - if you drop the wheel onto it's side then the wheel speeds up as there's no friction any more. If the angle is also beyond 45 degrees then that would be a good time to cut off the wheel. If the angle was even steeper then you could lower the cut off speed. Another improvement might be to actively brake the wheel till the wheel stops then cut off the motor. It was just a thought so I could easily be wrong with the logic here. 

not sure.. but either way there should be at least two conditions met before it ever cuts off... should never cut off with someone on it... the braking is a great idea though because yea often when somebody bails or falls off backwards the wheel can continue for some time,, though I'm not sure it can actually accelerate it can surely continue going at its current pace which is very dangerous as it is

[mrelwood]

20 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm definitely not undecided! I simply think you guys are plain wrong  I don't think the wheel ever gets confused by up. I also don't think the wheel has a clue where the true horizon is - it should just care which way feels like down and that should be more than enough to control the wheel.

If the wheel doesn't know where the true horizon is and it only goes by whichever direction "feels" down, can you explain how come the pedals are able to stay flat when you brake?

[mike_bike_kite]

54 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If the wheel doesn't know where the true horizon is and it only goes by whichever direction "feels" down, can you explain how come the pedals are able to stay flat when you brake?

Picture yourself riding at 30mph around the bowl in a skate park. Because of the bowl you'll be continually banked over while riding. You can still brake or accelerate while banked over going round the bowl. Absolutely nothing changes. The wheel won't suddenly use an artificial horizon to force you upright before changing the speed. The pedals will stay flat in relation to the wall (not to the ground) because that's where gravity is "felt" to be going. t's not just the wheel that thinks that gravity is currently going into the wall at an angle, you'll also feel exactly the same thing and so would a plumb line if you held it in your hand while riding.

It's pretty simple to show how a normal accelerometer works by running the bubble app on a smart phone and then moving the phone in an arc (doing it on a table will keep the phone level). You'll see the bubble on the display will swing out depending on how fast you move the phone in an arc. The only way you can get the phone to think it's on the level is to tilt the phone while moving it in the arc. Next there's the complexity of how you'd actually implement knowing where the real horizon is - there's been proposals here about using gyro's or even the Earth's gravity - which ever method you use it's going to be complex. It's also more costly - a simple MEMS accelerometer chip costs about a £1, a MEMS chip with a gyro costs £5. Finally, and most importantly, why on Earth would a manufacturer implement an artificial horizon because all it will do is make the wheel cut out while the rider is riding the wheel quickly round a corner????

If anybody wants to prove this one way or the other you'll need 1) a reasonably fast wheel, 2) a fair amount of confidence and ability, 3) a skate park with a bowl and 4) a decent amount of protection just in case I'm wrong. I'm too old and sensible to try but I'm also lacking 1), 2) and 4). I suspect you don't have to ride hell for leather, just keep upping the speed a little bit until you get the wheel past 45 degrees to the horizontal. Also make sure someone is videoing it.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The pedals will stay flat in relation to the wall (not to the ground) because that's where gravity is "felt"

This is exactly my point. If you are standing in a subway car and the subway starts to accelerate, you will feel as if gravity is drawing you to fall backwards. In order to feel level, the floor would have to tilt forward during accelerating and backwards while braking.

 What happens when banking during a curve is the same acceleration, just not forward but to the side. How come the EUC would go by the feeling of the direction of down when accelerating to the side, but not when accelerating front to back?

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

This is exactly my point. If you are standing in a subway car and the subway starts to accelerate, you will feel as if gravity is drawing you to fall backwards. In order to feel level, the floor would have to tilt forward during accelerating and backwards while braking.

That would work but it's quite hard to engineer. Instead they just put in seats or grab rails to stop us falling over. Alternatively you can just lean forwards which sort of simulates the floor tilting. If you hold the plumb line it will point straight down while the car is stopped. When the car accelerates the line will move backwards until the car stops accelerating then it will point straight down again as normal.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 What happens when banking during a curve is the same acceleration, just not forward but to the side. How come the EUC would go by the feeling of the direction of down when accelerating to the side, but not when accelerating front to back?

 Why to the side? People obviously go round these skate parks on EUCs. I think I included a clip of someone doing it earlier. There's no movement to the side.

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

If you hold the plumb line it will point straight down while the car is stopped. When the car accelerates the line will move backwards until the car stops accelerating then it will point straight down again as normal.

Exactly. When the wheel feels that “down” is pointed a bit backwards, how is it able to keep the pedals level with the true horizon?

[mike_bike_kite]

If the EUC feels that down is a bit backwards it will slow your speed or start to reverse but it hasn't a clue where the true horizon is. Similarly if you're riding round a wall of death, or just banked over going round a bend, you can still accelerate or brake while tilted over. This might be another interesting and slightly safer test. Get on your wheel in the subway car when it's at a stop. Balance upright while holding onto a pole - does the wheel want to move as the car accelerates (or brakes) because the wheel feels gravity has moved or does it stay perfectly still because the horizon hasn't moved at all?

[Kai Drange]

If the wheel don’t know the «real» down, wouldn’t a sharp turn on flat ground also cause a shut down? In that case the combined g-force should point mostly outward towards the side, same as when tipped over.

...or perhaps that would simply be a very unrealistic turn that wouldn’t ever occur?

Edited July 3, 2020 by Kai Drange

[mrelwood]

On 7/2/2020 at 10:46 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

The pedals will stay flat in relation to the wall (not to the ground) because that's where gravity is "felt" to be going.

If this would be true for riding sideways on a pool edge, it would be true when going back and forth on a regular skate ramp as well, since the felt gravity is what holds the skater on the board in there as well. But this has been tested on countless EUC videos on skate ramps (look for YT videos by “isthereanyfood” for example), even by my chickenass riding: The pedals do not stay flat in relation to the wall. They always stay flat in relation to the true horizon.

22 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

does the wheel want to move as the car accelerates (or brakes) because the wheel feels gravity has moved or does it stay perfectly still because the horizon hasn't moved at all?

Your perceived results don’t make much sense. No matter where the wheel thinks the horizon is, it can’t accelerate by itself, or fight the gravity pulling its weight. An EUC that would accelerate because of a perceived horizon would just tilt in relation to the true horizon. It can only try to keep itself upright. If you put a simple ball on a subway car, of course it will move. Everything is being pulled backwards, whether they (can) know where the true horizon is or not.

 Maybe this is what confuses you. What happens if the sensor on the EUC goes haywire and starts showing forward as up? Does the wheel zoom off to the horizon by itself or does it just flop over to the ground in the same place?

Edited July 4, 2020 by mrelwood