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Nimbus2000

is there a wheel that allows you to turn off horizontal shut off?

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so ive been taking the 16x to the skatepark every so often, and it can handle itself pretty well. however ide really like to be able to traverse a bowl. what i mean by this is if theres no horizontal shut off you can pretty much ride on a curved wall the way skateboard or bike could. i here that the ability to adjust the shut off angle is coming to kinsong wheels soon, but i doubt they will allow you to turn it off entirely.

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2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Since a self-balancing vehicle relies on recognizing the upright position to be able to balance, the EUC is not fully suitable for wall riding. The shut-off angle adjustment should help a bit though, depending on how low they'll let the threshold to be set.

Older Gotways were known for "the Gotway dance", which happens when the wheel falls to it's side but doesn't turn off the motor. I'm not sure if they didn't even have the feature, or if it just worked poorly. But due to this my guess is that something like the ACM might do better than the 16X when turning at the edge of a bowl.

thanks for the insight! ill see if i can find someone with an older gotway to test horizontal shutoff! hopefully the new ks app update will allow for a little more freedom in those situations.

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Posted (edited)

no. but as mrelwood said, older gotway wheels lacked this function hence many peoples smashed ankles and self destructed eucs lol.. however there is no euc available now that lacks this feature and no euc that can allow you to alter or disable it... however, it always comes way after the pedals would be scraping anyways, so essentially should be practically impossible for you to ever get cut off by it while actually riding.. unless, you were riding horizontal on a bowl haha, i would suggest just trying it while not on it to see how extreme it would allow you to do it first because the angle in which they switch off is pretty steep... if you really want to do this to the extreme, buy any used gw wheel made before the tesla which includes the ACM, ACMs, but not the short lived ACM2 which came out around the same time as the tesla

Edited by Rywokast

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Doesn't the new kingsong app allow you to adjust the angle cut off now for them situations, version 3.3.11 I think it has the option  

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3 minutes ago, stephen said:

Doesn't the new kingsong app allow you to adjust the angle cut off now for them situations, version 3.3.11 I think it has the option  

forwards and back tilt.. totally different this is the tilt that will shut off the motor when you lay the euc on its side

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2 hours ago, Nimbus2000 said:

what i mean by this is if theres no horizontal shut off you can pretty much ride on a curved wall the way skateboard or bike could.

I'm probably wrong here but surely the wheel uses a tilt sensor to detect it's angle of lean. If you're standing still then gravity just "points" straight down. If you're riding the wheel round a curved wall then wouldn't it just believe that gravity is pointing in towards the wall and therefore think it's standing upright? Obviously, if you stopped still at that point, then gravity would "point" back down again and the wheel would then shut off. But this is what you'd want it to do anyway. 

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30 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

forwards and back tilt.. totally different this is the tilt that will shut off the motor when you lay the euc on its side

Aaah I see 👍 would of been a good option though 😁

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm probably wrong here but surely the wheel uses a tilt sensor to detect it's angle of lean. If you're standing still then gravity just "points" straight down. If you're riding the wheel round a curved wall then wouldn't it just believe that gravity is pointing in towards the wall and therefore think it's standing upright? Obviously, if you stopped still at that point, then gravity would "point" back down again and the wheel would then shut off. But this is what you'd want it to do anyway. 

unfortunately the sensor has absolutely no clue about the relative angle of lean of the unicycle.. merely the gravitational angle.. therefore riding in a bowl like at a skate park, the wheel would very easily switch off as according to the sensor the wheel would be horizontal (which, relative to the earth.. it is).. ive seen videos of people trying it lol

Edited by Rywokast

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, stephen said:

Aaah I see 👍 would of been a good option though 😁

yes, i dont understand why they wouldnt make this optional.. however i also can see why they would think that no one would ever want to switch this setting off as any time you laid the euc down it would spin itself out, beep incessantly and then need to be power cycled.. and thats best case... worst case is the gotway dance lol, you step off with one leg and then accidentally lean it a little too much and bam it takes off and smashes itself up lol.. happened to many poor gotway owners in the past and ensuring this lean cutout is enforced makes it so no newcomers smash their brand new euc and then blame the manufacturer and blast them on social media haha

Edited by Rywokast

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49 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

unfortunately the sensor has absolutely no clue about the relative angle of lean of the unicycle.. merely the gravitational angle.. therefore riding in a bowl like at a skate park, the wheel would very easily switch off as according to the sensor the wheel would be horizontal (which, relative to the earth.. it is).. ive seen videos of people trying it lol

I don't doubt that that's what you've seen but I just don't understand why it would do that. The sensor would detect gravity just like we do. If we had our eyes shut and were riding round a wall then we'd say gravity was straight towards the wall and not down. The only way the sensor might think that it was past the cutoff angle is if the rider stops for a moment while riding the wall. 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I don't doubt that that's what you've seen but I just don't understand why it would do that. The sensor would detect gravity just like we do. If we had our eyes shut and were riding round a wall then we'd say gravity was straight towards the wall and not down. The only way the sensor might think that it was past the cutoff angle is if the rider stops for a moment while riding the wall. 

hmmmm,, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're saying haha.. if I had my eyes shut riding around a wall I would certainly know still where I was as (for example if I'm riding around a wall and the right side of my body is facing the sky) then to the left i would be naturally pulled towards the ground, but depending on how fast I was moving the frictional pull would overpower this and keep me on that wall.. however my brain still knows that I am not level as does any sensor.. think of it this way.. if I set a level on the ground, it will say it is level, if it set that level against a wall it will not say it is level merely because I placed it against the wall, the bubble would rise to the top regardless of whether it's on the wall, hovering off of the wall but parallel to it, moving or still.. the same goes for the digital level in the euc.. it does not care if you are moving, stopped, on a surface or hovering, if it detects a tilt relative to the earth past it's threshold it will cut out... it's very easy to test yourself just open your app and go into the details of the wheel and you can see exactly it's left and right tilt according to its own sensor.. I will bet you 1000 bucks that you cant place a wheel that's engaged against a wall moving or not and have it remain on/functional.. as soon as you bring it up (while moving or not) it will switch off.. I think you are mistaking frictional pull to gravitational pull which is the only thing the sensor is aware of.. frictional pull would be the reason why skateboarders can go nearly horizontal on a skate park bowl without immediately falling off and landing on the ground,, which would be the case instantly if they were to stop

Edited by Rywokast

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33 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The sensor would detect gravity just like we do.

This is what fools you. The sensor is a digital measuring instrument, it does not detect anything like humans do. I’m sure you are aware of the basics on how a gyroscope works. It doesn’t ”swing“ like a pendulum that has mass. I don’t know how exactly a digital gyroscope functions, but I’d say it’s fair to assume that it retains the basic functionality of a manual gyroscope.

 That and a few motion sensors together make for a pretty solid tool for detecting the actual orientation, no matter how the inertia of the rider’s mass would hold the rider on the wall.

 

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if you ask me the ideal scenario would be that manufacturers make the tilt cut off able to be switched from always on to conditional.. obviously the wheel knows when it's on the ground as when it's hovering it spins like crazy,, so for the people who like to do tricks why not make it a setting so wheels must meet the condition of not sitting on the ground as well as being tilted ~40 (guessing, average) in order to cut the motor

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

The sensor is a digital measuring instrument, it does not detect anything like humans do. I’m sure you are aware of the basics on how a gyroscope works. It doesn’t ”swing“ like a pendulum that has mass. I don’t know how exactly a digital gyroscope functions, but I’d say it’s fair to assume that it retains the basic functionality of a manual gyroscope.

 That and a few motion sensors together make for a pretty solid tool for detecting the actual orientation, no matter how the inertia of the rider’s mass would hold the rider on the wall.

 

Humans detect gravity using hairs in their inner ear that have tiny "weights" attached to them. If gravity pulls them in one direction then that's the direction we experience gravity from. EUC's don't use gyros for gravity as they're too expensive and would get damaged very quickly (hey don't use hairs either). Instead they use accelerometers to measure tilt. These things are quite cheap and come on a little computer chip. They are also easy to use on home projects - even I've used them. Both work same why said that.

There's normally an accelerometer on any modern smart phone so you could get a spirit level app (Bubble is a good one) then hold your arm out with the phone level. Check that the bubble is in the middle of the screen. Now move your arm quickly round. Does the bubble stay pointing down at the Earth? No it doesn't! it's affected just like we are. Your EUC should detect gravity going straight towards the wall (if you're going fast enough).

Here's a video of an EUC doing a "wall of death". 39 seconds in is probably the best illustration.

 

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Posted (edited)

As I understand it:

  • The sensor does detect gravity, it's just that gravity always points down. Since the entire point of relativity is that you can't distinguish between gravitational and other accelerations, I wonder how the sensors do it, but apparently they can filter out the downward component that is gravity.
    Maybe the sensors are just shitty and slow and the wheel has fallen over before they would detect any fine changes that would make a difference between real gravity and what the rider perceives as "downward" acceleration.
    Advanced EUCs would use the actual acceleration along the vertical wheel axis (yaw axis) as "gravity", and then you could ride on walls and do loopings etc. as long as you are fast enough.
  • There's no fundamental reason why a wheel needs to shut off if it tilts too much sideways (but probably the sensor stops working reliably then). It's just that they do because it makes sense.

@EUC Extreme (video above) has special firmware with the sideways tilt shut-off disabled. Maybe there is somebody with good contacts to Gotway (I'm thinking @EUC GUY :efef62fc70:) who can help you get one of their wheels with special firmware with the sideways tilt shut-off disabled.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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Posted (edited)

This is probably the type of gyroscope that is embedded in EUC circuitry.

Edited by null

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The only gotway wheel I have atm is an mten3 and a tesla that needs some work to bring it back from the grave. If there is some special firmware out there I would be willing to experiment!

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Unfortunately I'm not getting alerts for responses at the moment so sorry for the late reply.

There is no difference between gravity and centripetal (centrifugal) force. If you're on the wall of death then gravity (for you) not only feels like it's going outwards, it is going outwards. If someone put you in a sealed box in space and accelerated you at 10m/s/s then there's no way you could tell you weren't sitting in the box on Earth. Similarly, there is also no way for the EUC to know that it's riding round a wall of death rather than riding straight down a road. One of the types of gyroscope mentioned in the article that @null refers to is something called a MEMS accelerometer. These are the ones they have in your phone (and most likely in your wheel). If you do the experiment I mentioned above you'll see that gravity does not point straight down when you spin round. If you haven't got a fancy phone then you can do the same thing with a weight on the end of a string.

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

Similarly, there is also no way for the EUC to know that it's riding round a wall of death rather than riding straight down a road.

You should maybe read the description on the video you linked to. Granted, the translation is not that good, but it’s very clear in Finnish: He’s testing a version of Msuper that can be tilted sideways more than normal.

 My friend exceeded the 45 degree shut-off angle while riding in a skateboard pool. The wheel shut down. Why do you think that happened then?

When I got the 16S in 2017, I measured the wheel’s stability by setting an iPhone on top of the wheel. I accelerated and braked as I watched a bubble level app. The bubble barely budged. If it were following the conservation of movement, it should have moved considerably. Why didn’t it?

 As I turned left and right, the bubble followed the turns instantly, and always pointed to the ground. Since centrifugal force kept me and the wheel upright, why didn’t it affect the bubble level app?

 What happens to the bubble level app if it’s used in a plane that’s mimicking zero gravity, ie banking down at the exactly correct rate? If I’d shoot a video, would the image turn upside down wildly, since the phone has no discernible “down” direction?

 

Edit: From https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/accelerometer :

"Above, we explained that if you don't have any other information, then it is impossible to tell the difference between gravity and a change in velocity using an accelerometer. However, your phone has a trick up its sleeve. It also contains a magnetometer, a device that measures magnetic fields. The magnetometer helps the phone figure out which way is "down" by first figuring out which way Earth's magnetic field is pointing. Once the phone knows which way is down, it can subtract the effect of gravity from the accelerometer reading."

Edited by mrelwood

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16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 My friend exceeded the 45 degree shut-off angle while riding in a skateboard pool. The wheel shut down. Why do you think that happened then?

If it's not on video then it didn't happen ;)

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When I got the 16S in 2017, I measured the wheel’s stability by setting an iPhone on top of the wheel. I accelerated and braked as I watched a bubble level app. The bubble barely budged. If it were following the conservation of movement, it should have moved considerably. Why didn’t it?

 As I turned left and right, the bubble followed the turns instantly, and always pointed to the ground. Since centrifugal force kept me and the wheel upright, why didn’t it affect the bubble level app?

On your 16S "gravity" for you would be going straight towards your wheel. If it didn't you'd fall off. As you accelerate/brake/turn the "gravity", as you feel it, would feel like it's flowing down into your wheel. If you held the bubble level still in relation to your body then the bubble will also feel like it's still going straight towards your wheel. That's why the bubble didn't move and always pointed in the same direction. It's easy to see what happens in a more "scientific" and very easy to do experiment - just run the bubble app, hold your arm out but keep the bubble in the middle of the dial - then turn around reasonably quickly keeping the phone level - you'll see the bubble get's flung out.

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Edit: From https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/references/accelerometer :

"Above, we explained that if you don't have any other information, then it is impossible to tell the difference between gravity and a change in velocity using an accelerometer. However, your phone has a trick up its sleeve. It also contains a magnetometer, a device that measures magnetic fields. The magnetometer helps the phone figure out which way is "down" by first figuring out which way Earth's magnetic field is pointing. Once the phone knows which way is down, it can subtract the effect of gravity from the accelerometer reading."

Phones often have a magnetometer but I suspect the article is just wrong. The Earths magnetic field points in all sorts of directions depending on where you are on the planet (straight down at the poles to horizontal at the equator). I also strapped a magnet to my phone and span round a few times just to double check. It doesn't affect the bubble results from above though I suspect I'll now have to recalibrate my phones compass.

 

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Quote

On your 16S "gravity" for you would be going straight towards your wheel. If it didn't you'd fall off. As you accelerate/brake/turn the "gravity", as you feel it, would feel like it's flowing down into your wheel. If you held the bubble level still in relation to your body then the bubble will also feel like it's still going straight towards your wheel. That's why the bubble didn't move and always pointed in the same direction.

The point was that it DID move. It followed the angle of the top of the wheel, just as it would if everything were stationary.

Quote

It's easy to see what happens in a more "scientific" and very easy to do experiment - just run the bubble app, hold your arm out but keep the bubble in the middle of the dial - then turn around reasonably quickly keeping the phone level - you'll see the bubble get's flung out.

I can’t do that with any amount of stability, so it definitely would be all over the place.

Quote

I suspect the article is just wrong.

 The point that I was able to catch is that a phone combines multiple sensors of different base mechanisms to determine what’s going on. If the magnetometer goes haywire but all accelerometers stay still, the phone knows that it is not spinning wildly. If every sensor goes haywire, it knows that no-one is probably looking at the display, etc.

The iPhone X seems to actually even overcorrect slightly in fast movements across perfectly vertical plane. But correct it does try.

@mike_bike_kite, you are talking about purely an accelerometer. The MEMS chip includes accelerometers and gyroscopes, and can be combined with a magnetometer as well. Together the data each sensor gets can be used to overcome the limits of a purely acceleration based sensor, and detect actual gravity to a good degree.

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I suspect we're never going to agree on this but you can improve the stability when swinging your phone in an arc by putting it flat on a table while moving it (best to put it on a book so not to scratch any lenses). The phone will be flat but you'll still see the bubble move.

 

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26 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I suspect we're never going to agree on this but you can improve the stability when swinging your phone in an arc by putting it flat on a table while moving it (best to put it on a book so not to scratch any lenses). The phone will be flat but you'll still see the bubble move.

Yes, like I described in my last post.

Well, at least you should have no trouble finding sources on MEMS sensor functionality if you ever become interested.

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58 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Yes, like I described in my last post.

Well, at least you should have no trouble finding sources on MEMS sensor functionality if you ever become interested.

I actually have a few of the chips in a box above my desk. I've used them in a few projects. The i2c interface makes them quite easy to interface with microcontrollers etc.

 

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