Nikola Wobbles?

[Stillhart]

Hi all,

So in the latest eVX video, Mickey says that the Nikola gets high speed wobbles because of its size and design, then offers some suggestions on how to overcome it with riding position.  I have been having a lot of trouble getting my Nik up to speed because I get wobbles at around 18-19mph reliably.  For weeks I've been thinking it's just me and I need to build more muscles and "git gud".  Now I'm wondering how much of it is the machine and I'm starting to second-guess my purchase. 

Would I have the same problems on a different wheel?  If so, would they at least be less pronounced?  I realize that obviously it's mostly just me since plenty of other people can get over 20mph on the Nik without complaint.  But I also feel like one of the reasons I got the Nik is the "safety margin" of a faster Gotway wheel and I don't feel safe when I start wobbling at 20mph.  I'd rather have a more stable wheel that's easier to learn on so I can build up those muscles without feeling like I'm going to eat pavement if I accidentally have too much fun.

Since I'm asking this in the Gotway section, I'll focus my question: 

1 - Is it true that Nikola wobbles are a known thing or am I making too much out of an offhand comment?

2 - Would a wheel known for being more stable (like a MSX or an 18XL) suit me better and help me learn with less stress or will I have the same problems on any wheel?

To be clear, I learned on a Ninebot One E+ and rode that to tiltback constantly with no issues, which is why I decided to upgrade.  I feel mush less comfortable on the Nik than I did on the Ninebot.

[xorbe]

I think it's mostly rider. I had a bad time with wobbles on the MCM5 until I got used to it.  Just got the Nikola and yeah I got wobbles on my first higher speed run.  I assume it's the same deal, stability will come with time.  Wobbles is the delayed reaction between man and machine.  Your feet have to learn to anticipate what's happening down there ... it's more unconscious than conscious kinda, give it time.

What I got from his video was the main concern about wobbles was high speed braking (different wobble than above).  I think that has more to do with loading the weight behind the wheel (any wheel really) during braking.  It turns into a shopping cart wheel with the wheel out front.  The wheel wants to turn.  By turning slightly during hard braking, you'll avoid wobble by pinning the wheel to one direction, is what I got from evX's video.

Edited May 19, 2020 by xorbe
typo

[Meserias]

when you encounter side-to-side wobbles you are putting to match pressure on front of your pedals....
be more relaxed and try move your feet further back or ride your wheel offset on pedals

[.....]

Offsetting balance helps me. It kind of feels like I'm mashing down on one heel a little but still pushing forward with the other foot. I also do a little carving. I think its like @xorbe mentioned. Wobbles are your late or overreaction to the wheel imbalances and surface irregularities. I think it may even happen on a level that takes less time to happen, than we can think about. So either we anticipate it (by the 4th wiggle in a wobble, you kind of know what its going to do on #5), or we learn to ride and muscle muscle memory takes over. Maybe its not muscle memory, but I do think that we learn to cope with it on a subconscious level. Even the 'stable' wheels you speak of, wobble with the wrong rider. At times, I am just that guy too. Typically at 20mph+ speed wobbles, I gently slow down, pick (and maintain) a direction to lean a tiny bit into . I am pretty sure I gently slow down and lean towards my trailing foot on its heel. At sustained speeds, I find myself standing offset a little more and using body twist. Evx has some really good tips and knows his shit. Be sure to catch the one he has of advanced rider techniques too. fwiw, my mten even had a wobble pretty badly. IN the end, it stopped doing it, as the cause (the rider) just rode many more miles and it started going away. Mten wobbles were are at 8-10mph. Dont second guess yourself already, as 'the grass is greener' may start to apply on accident.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

i had the nikola 2100 with the huge battery on top... zero wobbles at any speed, in fact it was extremely stable... because of its shape? its shape is very aerodynamic if anything, not that this makes a difference at these measly speeds lol, i have never once felt any wobble on a wheel unless it had a very poorly seated tire or it was way too overinflated.. the 84V 2400 monster has an additional 800 wh battery on one side and it doesnt wobble whatsoever, its all in the rider... you need to strengthen those particular leg muscles, adjust your feet and relax.. youre probably just going too fast, you came from a puny little wheel with a puny tire, and youre moving up to the second or third largest euc there is, with a super fat tire theres going to be an adjustment period  yes you would absolutely have the same problem on another (bigger) wheel, its not the wheel... until you become a seasoned rider with lots of experience on different wheels of varying sizes there will always be a longer adjustment period for that particular wheel because they all have different centres of gravity, weights, sizes, tires, pressure points and each will put different stresses on different muscles

Edited May 20, 2020 by Rywokast

[bigwave]

@Stillhart I’m disappointed to hear your not having fun on your Nikola. As you know , I got a Nikola Plus around the same time as you. I now have over 200 miles on it. Being a new rider (started in February) and coming from a 18XL,I have learned a couple things that hopefully will give you more confidence when riding your Nik. I will say I have enjoyed the Nikola from the start. I felt like I was in sync with it right away but there were issues. Like @Rywokast said, the Nikola is a big wheel. It makes my 18XL feel small. 

From me, the Nikola is sensitive to foot position and tire pressure. I was initially running 40 psi when I first got it, similar to the 18XL. It felt like a beach ball. Lots of bounce. I asked @Mike Sacristan about tire pressure for my weight(205 lbs) and the Nikola   He said around 35psi be a good start. I settled at 36psi. Much smoother ride , very little bounce and stable. I believe in EVx ‘s video he said 35 psi was the number for his weight (175 in think). Initially, I had my feet to far forward. This would cause wobbles on both the Nikola and 18XL( the Mten3 too). I would suggest you be very precise when putting your dominant foot on the pedal. Experiment, you will find a sweet spot. I ride my non dominant foot (left) with my toes lined up with the edge of the pedal, so an offset stance.

On both the Nikola and 18XL I get brake wobbles when braking hard  I just squeeze the wheel and twist a little  Like @ShanesPlanet says, you just anticipate it  and relax. Even though all the wheels are ridden with same basic technique, they have different handling characteristics which takes time to become comfortable with.i suggest you find a place with no distractions ( people cars etc) and practice acceleration and braking with various foot positions and see if you can get more comfortable with the Nikola .

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by bigwave

[Mike Sacristan]

46 minutes ago, bigwave said:

@Stillhart I’m disappointed to hear your not having fun on your Nikola. As you know , I got a Nikola Plus around the same time as you. I now have over 200 miles on it. Being a new rider (started in February) and coming from a 18XL,I have learned a couple things that hopefully will give you more confidence when riding your Nik. I will say I have enjoyed the Nikola from the start. I felt like I was in sync with it right away but there were issues. Like @Rywokast said, the Nikola is a big wheel. It makes my 18XL feel small. 

From me, the Nikola is sensitive to foot position and tire pressure. I was initially running 40 psi when I first got it, similar to the 18XL. It felt like a beach ball. Lots of bounce. I asked @Mike Sacristan about tire pressure for my weight(205 lbs) and the Nikola   He said around 35psi be a good start. I settled at 36psi. Much smoother ride , very little bounce and stable. I believe in EVx ‘s video he said 35 psi was the number for his weight (175 in think). Initially, I had my feet to far forward. This would cause wobbles on both the Nikola and 18XL( the Mten3 too). I would suggest you be very precise when putting your dominant foot on the pedal. Experiment, you will find a sweet spot. I ride my non dominant foot (left) with my toes lined up with the edge of the pedal, so an offset stance.

On both the Nikola and 18XL I get brake wobbles when braking hard  I just squeeze the wheel and twist a little  Like @ShanesPlanet says, you just anticipate it  and relax. Even though all the wheels are ridden with same basic technique, they have different handling characteristics which takes time to become comfortable with.i suggest you find a place with no distractions ( people cars etc) and practice acceleration and braking with various foot positions and see if you can get more comfortable with the Nikola .

 

Wobble wobble! I also came from a Ninebot One E+. I had to relearn to ride but before that I had to unlearn to ride which made it even more demanding.

Haha yeah funny how Mickey is running that high PSI and then pointing out wobbles. At his weight and that PSI it would be interesting to see the contact patch he is riding on. We can just ride in a puddle and then on dry asphalt and see. 1cm maybe? Nice use of a 3 inch tyre lol.

The first time I was on a Nik+ (3 battery packs) was last year. I got it to 50kmh on my first try. I then got some terrible wind and got wobbles while holding my GoPro which acted like a sail and also my own noobiness on that wheel. On the way back I hit 59.5kmh on a bike path with a slight incline.

I once got wobbles on the 1800Wh Nik+ also because of high PSI and bad asphalt.

But... let's go back in time a bit.. to when I was riding my MSX with a speed alarm set at 35 kmh. EVERY TIME I passed 35 kmh I would get speed wobbles lol.

Yesterday I got a speed wobble on the 16X at 45 kmh because I put most of my weight on my right leg so I could adjust my right foot. I probably won't be doing that again.

Anyway... @Stillhart remember this thread in a few months.. when all your wobbles are gone. Wobble is a skill issue and it takes time and practice to develop skill.

[Stillhart]

Thanks for the tips, everyone.  I'll keep at it and experiment with foot placement a little more.  I've tried riding more offset like evX suggests and it doesn't feel very good for me.  I have been having some success with the UStride heel-up riding style, and combining them feels a little weird.

@Mike Sacristan what PSI would you suggest?  I'm about the same weight as evX and was going to try 35 psi next (recommended both by him and by ewheels website) but if you think lower is better, I'd definitely try that as well.

evX also swears by soft mode, but I feel MUCH more in control in medium or hard mode.  The wobbles in soft mode are much more extreme and find that medium is a good balance for me between the feel of soft and control of hard.  My point being that not all his advice works for me right now lol.

Anyways, if it's not the wheel and it's definitely me, I'll just keep at it.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Stillhart

[Mike Sacristan]

16 hours ago, Stillhart said:

Thanks for the tips, everyone.  I'll keep at it and experiment with foot placement a little more.  I've tried riding more offset like evX suggests and it doesn't feel very good for me.  I have been having some success with the UStride heel-up riding style, and combining them feels a little weird.

@Mike Sacristan what PSI would you suggest?  I'm about the same weight as evX and was going to try 35 psi next (recommended both by him and by ewheels website) but if you think lower is better, I'd definitely try that as well.

Are you looking at this?

https://www.ewheels.com/guide-tires-appropriate-pressures-electric-unicycle/

Are you looking at the number for the 18 inch? The Nikola 16x3 tyre has more/higher sidewall than the 18x2.5 and more volume meaning you can get away with lower PSI.
35 PSI is still way too high and you will be riding a razor's edge.
With the Nik you could go all the way down to 22 PSI a the low end. 25 PSI would be a good number. 30 PSI would be in the high end.
Check the tire on a curb by putting your bodyweight on it at 22 PSI and don't smack into curbs or deep potholes.

16 hours ago, Stillhart said:

evX also swears by soft mode, but I feel MUCH more in control in medium or hard mode.  The wobbles in soft mode are much more extreme and find that medium is a good balance for me between the feel of soft and control of hard.  My point being that not all his advice works for me right now lol.

Anyways, if it's not the wheel and it's definitely me, I'll just keep at it.

It would be easier to practice on hard mode. Hard mode is constant. Soft mode is variable with a delay. Soft mode will make it a bit easier in the beginning and then in contrast it will get very hard.

Hard mode will make it hard in the beginning and then it gets harder at speed. But at least you are training all the time including in the beginning.
Practice putting weight on the balls of your feet but still keeping your heels down. Keep your legs at a slight bend. Let your shoulders roll forward in a slight slouch.
If you can.. bring one finger down to the front/top of the Nikola and hold it there. This will teach you a semi-crouch while riding.

Anyway... just keep at it! 

[Stillhart]

Well I'm throwing spaghetti and the wall and something is sticking because I got a little faster today (up to 20.8mph) and I felt more confident at higher speeds.  I even rode the wobbles for a bit at one point without immediately slowing down.  (I know that part at least comes from having it set to Hard mode, since the wobbles feel much more controllable in that mode in general.) 

Some things I tried:  psi down to 25, riding mode back to Hard from Medium, trying to put my weight forward without lifting my heels.

One other thing I tried, which I think helped a lot:  I rode somewhere new and there were lots of people around.  I was focused a lot more on my surroundings and foot traffic on the path than I was foot positioning and whatnot.  I basically stopped trying so hard and just rode and took in the sights.  I think that helped a lot.  lol

[.....]

You're getting it for sure!  One thing I noticed over a few miles of getting better, I was able to maintain same speeds and accelerate as easily without my heels up. I remember my first trip to the gas station maintaining near tiltback, and I was on my toes and ALMOST to fall off the front. A couple small bumps and I almost shit myself as I was on that razor edge on my toes. Without explanation, my second trip a week later, and I was NOT riding with heels up, maintaining same speeds and had a tiny bit more of my balance away from an inevitable nose dive. I ride in hard more too. I'll tell you this, when you pull out onto a 2 lane highway in town with 45mph traffic, you somehow learn to hit tiltback before you even realize it. Something to be said about focusing on hazards and not your wheel,  gives a little more incentive to do it right. Grats on the progress! Having made it this far, I'd bet your comfort will come at an exponential rate now.

Edited May 22, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Stillhart]

Well, for what it's worth, I broke 21mph today and rode through a few wobbles with little drama.  My legs are still sore from the "long" (for me) ride yesterday and so I didn't make it too far today but it felt good.

One thing I realized today:  yesterday I rode in a new area and attributed a lot of progress to that.  Today I rode in a usual area and realized the bike trail is horrible.  It's super bumpy and cracked and I felt every single bump thanks to my sore legs; that wore me out much faster than riding smooth trails/roads.  At least it felt more planted on the bumps thanks to the lowered psi.  But man, once I got to a smooth area and I could just relax and open 'er up, that's when I hit my top speed.  lol

[Glenn@mansfield]

Definitely stick with the nik. I got mine a little over a month ago and must admit it threw me for a loop but i had some great advice and stuck with it... of all my wheels it the one that i have grown to love most from genuinely not feeling it at all bordering on it scaring the sh1t out of me on the first few days. Its a wheel you need to make adjustments for and experiment. Stagger your feet like many have said but try different amounts what works for one doesnt for another. Without realising i started to engage a very slight turn/carve during heavy braking. Grip the wheel more during the brake carve and sit in to the braje lowering your C/O/G. If you do get big wobbles much like a tractor/poorly weighted vehicle you can often release the brake and give a touch of acceleration to instantly calm the wheel(this where possible is better than the high speed crash alternative) with more miles and muscle memory the wobble will just magically vanish. 

[Lindsey]

The user's own style of handling the electric wheel is different. Last year I tested Nicola Plus 100v. We did hill testing and high-speed testing, but Wavel didn't come. In a way, it's a difference of skill. 

 

"There is no correct answer.".

 

Nicola's appearance is round and thick. It also weighs, and Nicola's gyro style is lower than Z10's hard gyro style.

I think there are many users who feel wobble because KS-16X, Nikola, and electric wheel similar to Z10 have strong straight forwardness.

As mentioned above, it is a difference in user proficiency, and in my case, I don't put my knees on the electric wheel while driving to get rid of the wavel, and I dribble as if I were touching the electric wheel. In addition, the more straightforward the electric wheel is, the more you need to find the right way to drive.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Lindsey

[Ronin Ryder]

i have the same wobbles with the Nikola+ but they start at lower speed, like 7-9mph. i cant do further because of that. I also tried the U-stride method to accelerate and wobbles were worse. I must be doing something wrong for sure...

[EMA]

some tips from my experience:

put your feet asimmetrically helps balance a lot, including wobbles
if you start wobble choose a side and push hard, it will disappear
lowering psi could help at the beginning but i do not recommend (remember high speed+low psi is dangerous)
use low or medium riding mode reduce wobbles at the beginning becouse wheel response is smoother

[agronick]

I only get wobbles when braking especially when going downhill. I've hit 41mph on my MSP and don't get wobbles at speed. Pushing hard on one side seems to do the trick but I'd like to prevent it in the first place.

[Ronin Ryder]

Switching to medium mode has reduced a lot (but not removed) the wobbles. Putting feets in asymetric way and squeezing the wheel when wobbles appeared to help to reduce these as well...

[RayBanMonster]

In my experience the wobbles are caused by weight placement, so when riding Nikola plus, I ride low pressure and  weight placement is very important

To keep it planted whichever foot has most pressure to the front and side, the other must be heavily weighted to the rear.

The problem with this comes under soft mode acceleration, which means a lot of lean, which means higher potential to faceplant (or if Pro roll-off) if you misjudge or fail to maintain that relative foot positioning.

Pro tip: Its an improvement I found to keep both feet in the same position but be able to switch weight distribution in opposite sides when required, this improves dexterity and confidence with the wheel over time, and allows muscular rest on-the-go.

Cause:

When the feet are parallel along the wheel axis , there is less human force capable of controlling bump or displacement issues which cause the wheel to oscillate just enough repeatedly widening,  until forces are met enough to initiate a recovery phase/reversal tightening and a cessation of the motion.

This tyre pressure & weight sensitive behaviour causes a cone of osculation about the axis at each pedal outer edge if you were to trace and track it in slow motion, it is a function of physics of Pneumatic wheels, exacerbated by weight distribution and forces capable of cancelling the oscillatory motion.

Therefore to stop this behaviour and arrest the oscillation we need to address the predictable cone pattern of motion... by shifting weight outward for better leverage and perhaps to the rear hard on opposite side   to arrest the osculation at source since itll have to overcome your mass more.

Summary:

Your weight distribution can easily address these wobbles, if you pay attention to how youre distributing it as you go.

Hope that was helpful.

Paul

Edited September 10, 2020 by RayBanMonster

[Mike Sacristan]

@Stillhart its been a few months now.

How are the wobbles coming along?

[Weaponsleft]

I'm definitely still getting wobbles myself at varying points and I'm about a week and a half in. I've safely reached speeds above 30 mph sometimes without or with minimum wobble but I can't point to one distinct thing that I'm doing which is preventing the issue. 

I do have rather large feet, so getting the right foot placement is always kind of hard to gauge. There are times when I feel completely locked in, and the wheel just feels really stable but even when that happens there are times when changing speed will take me out of that zone. 

I'll definitely be sticking with it as the Nik + is my first and only wheel and I really enjoy the experience. It'll just be a while before I'm comfortably and regularly pushing the speed limits that it can likely achieve. 

[Stillhart]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:43 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

@Stillhart its been a few months now.

How are the wobbles coming along?

Hey all, it has indeed been a few months and I actually didn't get much riding in because it's crazy hot out here in the desert during the summer.  It has FINALLY started to cool off around here (it was only 91F today!) and I've been back riding again the last few days.

So since I started trying to use the U-Stride method for accelerating, I feel like I've had much fewer wobbles during acceleration.  Deceleration wobbles have never been an issue for me.  The remaining issue is just wobbling at "high" speeds.  Before I took a break, my top speed just got a little higher every day.  I think a lot of it came down to both building the muscles to control the wheel better, along with building the confidence to be able to control the wobbles when they happen.

That said, my top speed ever is still only like 25mph but that's much better than the 18mph I was doing at first when the wobbles would hit.

Also, I've been trying a lot of different things with my weight distribution, from trying more duckfooted stance to offset front/back stance, etc.  As I said, the U-Stride one-heel-up stance seems to be working really well for me.  And I've noticed that I have to put my weight on my other foot further back when I do that.  I think this goes well with what @RayBanMonster was saying above about weight distribution.  Along with that, I've also been experimenting with which foot has the weight forward, just because swapping back and forth relieves some of the muscles and lets me ride longer, also suggested by RayBanMonster so I think I'm on the right track there.

Anyhow yeah, at the end of the day, experience, confidence, building muscles. 

[Mike Sacristan]

LOL 91F is hotter than the hottest day we have had all year in Sweden.
Now it is autumn and it is 57F today.

Simon and I will sometimes do the one heel up stance but that is mostly for flamboyant posing. 
The advantage is that it makes the wheel flop more to one side and this reduces the lateral oscillations that we cause.
Hitting a bump or rough patch in that position is bad news. Muscle development and technique takes time.
I do like U-strides style a lot though and I have even told him so.
My stance is staggered at high speed but only in the sense that I lead with one knee. My feet are still on the same place on each pedal it is just the amount of ankle dorsiflexion on my leading leg that changes. I just keep the heel down though.

In the end we will all develop our styles and share style with one another. This is part of the fun.

Some riders I know have gotten to very high speeds after only a few days. Some like me took a very long time.
Monika wobbled on the MSX for the longest time as well and didn't dare to even hit 30 kmh.

Tyre pressure is one the biggest factors for success. And the soft pedal mode is much smoother when riding over imperfect asphalt.
At high speed on the hard mode I will tend to slow down because of the way hard mode makes the wheel skip up and down.

[Weaponsleft]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Tyre pressure is one the biggest factors for success. And the soft pedal mode is much smoother when riding over imperfect asphalt.
At high speed on the hard mode I will tend to slow down because of the way hard mode makes the wheel skip up and down.

I consistently end up hitting much faster speeds in slow mode. The wheel feels so much more stable that pushing speed feels like a reasonable idea. 
When I switched back to medium and hard modes after riding daily for a week I would check Darknessbot when I got home and consistently my top speed ended up dropping the harder the mode that I was riding. 
Someday I may reach a level of comfort that allows me to ride the hard mode faster. At current I don’t see many advantages to not riding in Soft mode.
The carve and flow feel in Slow mode make me feel more confident, and that combined with the inherent stability of that mode results in speed for me. 

[Weaponsleft]

Hit 35mph without batting an eye and no wobble whatsoever today. I'm at around 320 miles as of today. 

I don't think anything changed except my own confidence in my abilities and the development of muscles and understanding.