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Jon Stern

UK: Time for PEV Pressure

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The UK is looking at e-bikes and increased number of bike lanes to support opening up the economy post coronavirus lockdown.

Electric bikes 'could help people return to work'https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52711992

Coronavirus: 'Lockdown is opportunity of a lifetime for bike lanes'https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-52670597/coronavirus-lockdown-is-opportunity-of-a-lifetime-for-bike-lanes

How coronavirus is driving a revolution in travelhttps://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52689372

Is there anyone on this forum aware of any current efforts to pressurize the UK government to liberalize its EUC (and other PEV) laws, specifically in light of these developments? I know this has been a long-running topic, but it would seem that SARS-CoV-2 has created an opportunity for change.

On a side note, e-scooters seem to get discussed with the assumption that this means rental services, which include the public nuisance issues. From the news articles I've been seeing on the BBC, it seems likely the two quite separate items are often being collapsed in to one. It needs to be pointed out that post-lockdown, privately owned PEVs could be part of the travel solution, without opening up to rental companies.

(This topic is of personal interest to me, as I hope to return to the UK one day.)

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Posted (edited)

The UK is starting rental e-scooter trials in June 2020 though personal e-scooters will still be illegal.  This supposedly to ease the transport issue due to social distancing. They don't seem to have considered that unlike personal e-scooters these rental e-scooters won't be available from where people actually live and there is also the hygiene issue. These rental e-scooters will be speed limited to 12.5 mph / 20 kph so they will be easily overtaken by cyclists and joggers.

I emailed Grant Shapps (Transport Secretary), the prime minister (Boris Johnson) and the Department for Transport only last week asking them to pull their finger out and legalise PEVs (I provided a detailed argument why PEVs should be legalised). I don't expect them to do much as they lack vision despite claiming the contrary. I have no faith in our inept government on this issue. I've been emailing them for the last two years providing them with useful articles and studies on e-scooters and PEVs. They seem intent on dragging this out as long as possible because they are afraid to take action and likely see no need for e-scooters when e-bikes are available. Its like talking to a brick wall. They just don't get it. Typical government ... complete lack of vision and inability to make decisions in case things go wrong and they get blamed ... although they still manage to screw up on a regular basis on other matters. The wrong people in the wrong job.

Yes, there have been lots of groups and advocates lobbying the government to get our outdated laws changed, but so far they have done diddly squat leaving those that ride PEVs at risk of prosecution.

Edited by Nic

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Posted (edited)

This way they get only inexperienced riders who dont care about the equipment, and after accidents and vandalism, they can call the experiment a failure and ban e-scooters in favour of cars. (Never mind the later cause way more deaths)

Edited by null

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13 minutes ago, null said:

This way they get only inexperienced riders who dont care about the equipment, and after accidents and vandalism, they will can call the experiment a failure and ban e-scooters in favour of cars. (Never mind the later cause way more deaths)

This is exactly right. Almost all the problems with e-scooters have been with rental e-scooters.

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3 hours ago, null said:

This way they get only inexperienced riders who dont care about the equipment, and after accidents and vandalism, they will can call the experiment a failure and ban e-scooters in favour of cars. (Never mind the later cause way more deaths)

This was precisely my concern. That's why rental and private e-scooters should be considered separately.

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7 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Unbelieveable! A rebate on buying an euc, it doesnt get much better than that.

We are light years behind in the uk and it makes me so angry how backward our government is.

I emailed the article to DfT, so maybe they will take notice and start thinking more clearly.:popcorn:

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Just now, Nic said:

I emailed the article to DfT, so maybe they will take notice and start thinking more clearly.:popcorn:

Is that the Department for Tossers?

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1 minute ago, Jon Stern said:

Is that the Department for Tossers?

That's the one! ... but they changed the name to something more friendly.:popcorn:

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Accountability through public visibility is probably our biggest tool to ensuring the DfTossers make sensible decisions during this critical period. I absolutely abhor social media, but unless we all tweet some sense to some people that matter this will just go the way of Null's post above. The gov.uk forum doesn't become publicly reviewable once it's done, so they can still decide what they like even if the majority of responses are pro-sense. Otherwise I worry PLEVs will be legal in the UK just in the way that cannabis-derived medicines are now legal in the UK; nothing but a technicality perpetuating the existing harms of illegally.

 

End of political rant, please have a nice day.

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21 minutes ago, Nic said:

 

Bloody ridiculous tbh what are they thinking

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I can't speak for anywhere else but in the UK I think the reality is EUC's are on borrowed time :(

A couple of years ago when wheels were far less powerful there was a case for asking the government to consider them as a serious urban transport solution and to look into legalising their use in public.

Unfortunately I think that opportunity has now been missed, the wheels in use now are largely in the hands of enthusiasts who want extra power and speed. Just take a look at Youtube, the vast majority of videos show (usually) males armoured like they are going to war riding wheels at breakneck speeds. No government is going to legalise a 2000w (3hp) machine capable of 30+ mph for use in public.

If riding a vehicle warrants riding with a full face helmet and knee, elbow, wrist pads etc then it clearly isn't suitable to ride either on the public highway or pavement.

I appreciate what I say isn't popular and I certainly don't want to see EUC's banned or heavily restricted in public but that is the reality of the situation. I'd love a more powerful  wheel but I worry that i'll be wasting my money :(

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1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

I can't speak for anywhere else but in the UK I think the reality is EUC's are on borrowed time :(

A couple of years ago when wheels were far less powerful there was a case for asking the government to consider them as a serious urban transport solution and to look into legalising their use in public.

Unfortunately I think that opportunity has now been missed, the wheels in use now are largely in the hands of enthusiasts who want extra power and speed. Just take a look at Youtube, the vast majority of videos show (usually) males armoured like they are going to war riding wheels at breakneck speeds. No government is going to legalise a 2000w (3hp) machine capable of 30+ mph for use in public.

If riding a vehicle warrants riding with a full face helmet and knee, elbow, wrist pads etc then it clearly isn't suitable to ride either on the public highway or pavement.

I appreciate what I say isn't popular and I certainly don't want to see EUC's banned or heavily restricted in public but that is the reality of the situation. I'd love a more powerful  wheel but I worry that i'll be wasting my money :(

They can still legalize EUCs with a certain speed limit, in the same way they limit ebikes to 15.5mph and 250W.

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46 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

They can still legalize EUCs with a certain speed limit, in the same way they limit ebikes to 15.5mph and 250W.

They could do but the UK isn't noted for doing anything sensible where transport is concerned.

If they were to limit speed and power I'm sure the limits would be so low that it would effectively render EUC's useless.

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I try to not think about the police and just ride, 2 years now and I've been ok legal or not I'll ride until I get one confiscated which hasn't happened in the UK yet👍

Id love to ride legal but even if they did make them legal I doubt my high power euc's (msx v11😁) would be

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Posted (edited)

Hoverboards, Segways, electric scooters and unicycle wheels could be seized police warn

Adults risk a £300 if they or their children are caught using an electric powered vehicle illegally and having the transport seized after a number of instances in Gloucester.
 

Electric powered vehicles being illegally used on pavements and cycle paths could be seized as police launch a new crackdown on anti-social behaviour.

Officers from Gloucestershire Constabulary have issued the warning after "a growing number" of instances where they have been used by many people around Gloucesterunaware they are committing an offence.

Current legislation bans powered transporters - which includes electric scooters, e-hover boards, electric powered unicycle wheels and e-Segways - being driven on public pathways.

Although many are available to buy from high street stores, they cannot be ridden freely on the country's streets.

They can only be used on private land with permission of the land owner. They must also be registered to be used on the road.

Now Gloucestershire Constabulary said the force will seize the vehicles if they are used illegally on pavements and cycle paths and said parents could face prosecution is their children are caught using the vehicles illegally.

Adults using e-scooters on the street are committing the same offence of using a motor vehicle with no insurance, and risk a £300 fixed penalty notice and six points on a driving licence.
Chief Inspector Al Barby said: "While these may seem like fun and environmentally-friendly ways of getting around, these vehicles can be dangerous to other road users as well as to the riders themselves.

@stephenjust found this.

Same shit like here in Germany 🤮

Edited by RoadRunner

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Chief Inspector Al Barby said: "While these may seem like fun and environmentally-friendly ways of getting around, these vehicles can be dangerous to other road users as well as to the riders themselves.

That's a shame there is a crackdown. The thing is, everything is illegal until enough people use PEV's and then accommodations are made, laws are changed, etc. In the U.S., cities are grappling with how to classify and regulate electric scooters, with different cities taking different approaches. If enough people want to ride electric scooters. Also hoverboards gave everything a bad rap, as many of them are dubious quality / safety.

Edited by erk1024

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6 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

...

Same shit like here in Germany 🤮

Didn't Germany legalise these last year? https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/19/germany-kick-scooters-now-legal-and-set-to-multiply/

Rental scooters might face a ban this year, but not personal scooters. https://www.ft.com/content/7adc822e-4ce2-11ea-95a0-43d18ec715f5

 

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12 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

and six points on a driving licence.

:facepalm:  I don’t see that they are related. What if you don’t have a driver’s license? 
 

Years ago a coworker that had lost his drivers license was stopped by a police officer while moving construction materials in a closed off construction parking lot with a forklift. The offer gave him a ticket for driving without a license and operating a motor vehicle without insurance. I would not have believed it if I had not been standing there. The officer kept asking for the Make and model of the forklift. He also wanted the Vin number. My coworker was dumbfounded. He kept saying, “It is a forklift!?”   Luckily the construction General Contractor filled a complaint against the officer for trespassing on private property and not following OSHIA safety requirements. The charges were dropped just before going to court. 

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"Anti-social behavior"? How are PEVs any more anti-social than bicycles, or cars for that matter?

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40 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

:facepalm:  I don’t see that they are related. What if you don’t have a driver’s license?

Then the points can sit on file until such time as you do have one. Same as what happens with 14 year old joyriders who decide to take to the streets in Nans Ford Escort.

40 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Years ago a coworker that had lost his drivers license was stopped by a police officer while moving construction materials in a closed off construction parking lot with a forklift. The offer gave him a ticket for driving without a license and operating a motor vehicle without insurance. I would not have believed it if I had not been standing there. The officer kept asking for the Make and model of the forklift. He also wanted the Vin number. My coworker was dumbfounded. He kept saying, “It is a forklift!?”   Luckily the construction General Contractor filled a complaint against the officer for trespassing on private property and not following OSHIA safety requirements. The charges were dropped just before going to court. 

If there was an allegation of trespassing then by definition the land in question is usually private property.

Drivers licence and insurance laws do not apply to private property, so the offences were going nowhere to start with.

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42 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

"Anti-social behavior"? How are PEVs any more anti-social than bicycles, or cars for that matter?

Cars dont get driven on the pavement at 35mph. Nor do bicycles usually for that matter.

The problem is that whilst there are so many pevs out there capable of more than 15mph, people will insist on doing it in areas where its not suitable. Therefore anti social.

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