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Mike Sacristan

Interacting with EUC manufacturers

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On 5/11/2020 at 10:26 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

I appreciate Kingsong constantly releasing improvements and patches to our wheels. They should be rewarded for this.

@Mike Sacristan you points are very valid and a constructive back and forth between the manufacturer/ customer can only be beneficial. But, while it's very nice to see the Manufacturer ,in this case King Song offer support to their product, That support would NOT be necessary if the product was designed and tested properly before release.  In my limited time with EUC's ,it seems to me, they get rushed out by the companies and then get upgraded Firmware ,Motherboards etc. I completely understand while people get upset with the manufactures. Obviously, these wheels are not cheap. Nothing worse than getting a new wheel and realize there is an issue(minor or major). It goes back to design and testing . If there is a flaw in the design, the testing should make it apparent.  If there is limited testing due to time/money, then thats how we arrive at this point, the need for positive interaction with the Manufacturer to make them aware of an issue and resolve it. :)

 

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@bigwave I don't agree with you 100%. Feedback between customers and brands isn't not only about issue that they can test and quality. Right now it it what you see here.

But outside the public eye I have been feeding Inmotion with general wishes and post we seen over time. It has been so many things both small and big. This for right now and easy to do but also in what direction to take next generation or the generation after that. It is too easy to say bigger battery and more speed.

I think the V11 and S18 is prime example of a new direction where battery and speed isn't first priority but they are aiming for a target group with different wants and needs. Now the next wheel from Inmotion that is target to release in October will be yet another very different target group. And it isn't just wheels but things around them. We have seen Inmotion working on a smartwatch too. It isn't ready yet that is why they are quiet about it for now.

Like am example I asked to use machine screws instead of selfcutting screws where ever it is possible as it make repairs easier and don't damage wheel overtime when doing maintenance. It is in the end a matter of design choice and tiny extra cost. But I think it is worth it. As a longterm designchange weatherproofing to improve. Yet another design choice for a different target group. 

And talking issues some things just escapes the radar because focus where in a different place. And customers do things with products that we as manufactures didn't anticipate. I see this every time we launch new products from my company (working with IT and imaging).

As an example just look at the amazing job @Seba has done with EUC.WORLD. Imho it is so far ahead any brand app in function and options. Yes we need to document how to use it but still. 

This is still a young business and it can still develop a lot in many directions. 

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3 hours ago, Unventor said:

Like am example I asked to use machine screws instead of selfcutting screws where ever it is possible as it make repairs easier and don't damage wheel overtime when doing maintenance. It is in the end a matter of design choice and tiny extra cost. But I think it is worth it. As a longterm designchange weatherproofing to improve. Yet another design choice for a different target group. 

I get what you say, but I also get what bigwave is saying.

Re your above points about screws and waterproofing, I think this should be the default, not a requested 'bonus'. It's basic stuff. It's how Ninebot did it with the Z10, nothing to do with target groups. They just spent shedloads of time and effort making it good from the start and it shows. you only need to strip down a Z and an MSX to see that the difference in build quality is in orders of magnitude. (yes the Z has had problems but overall build quality isn't one of them).

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Posted (edited)

All of the above (including QC and things many don't feel should even have to be brought up) brings us back to having a direct communication channel with the manufacturer. If manufacturer X rushes a release, doesn't pay close enough attention to QC or installs weak components, but gets no feedback from customers, they're likely to keep doing the same in the future.

If on the other hand, they are made aware that customers are unhappy with this or that, there's more of a chance said things will be addressed in the future. But for communication to be effective, it has to be done right. If for instance, a manufacturer has a rep. in the forum, it's going to be humanly impossible for said person to get a picture of issues based on an infinity of posts spread out across dozens of threads, among contradicting statements, arguments, speculation, you name it.

The S18 threads are an excellent example of how chaotic it can become (and how quickly). What seemed like a good idea at the time (questions and answers---simple!) turned out to be a very chaotic affair, with some people going on rants about general weatherproofing (in general, not just for the S18), others discussing among themselves how hard it would be to clean, others discussing technical details about different kinds of suspension, etc. It's understandable due to the nature of the forum, variety of opinions, priorities, expertise in specific areas, etc., but not very effective in terms of communication.

Imagine being a sales rep for a car manufacturer put in a room with hundreds of customers and potential buyers at the same time, and being bombarded with every question under the sun about every model ever produced (and every fault ever detected on any model), along with endless tirades on the entire automotive industry, production model, marketing strategies, you name it.... What would your take be by the end of the day, and what valuable info would you be able to convey to your boss aside from "F' it, I quit!" :efee612b4b:

There's a reason car dealers talk to one customer at a time...

That's why we're exploring other ways of interacting with manufacturers, so we can find a way of providing valuable feedback to reps without things turning into a sh*tstorm, in a way that's beneficial to all parties involved  :)

Edited by travsformation

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9 minutes ago, travsformation said:

 What would your take be by the end of the day, and what valuable info would you be able to convey to your boss aside from "F' it, I quit!" :efee612b4b:

I totally get that, I've been there as a sales rep on a forum myself. It's hugely time consuming and full of hassle. I ended up leaving in the end for many of the same reasons you mentioned. It's hassle for the mods too to try and make sure things don't go off at a tangent/get out of hand. Plus the reality is there's very little in it for the retailer Vs what you actually get out of it tbh and I found my time was better spent actually earning the company money rather than dealing with questions that were often nothing to do with what I had initially posted. It can be mitigated somewhat by only the rep/retailer having posting rights so could mainly be used for news and upcoming events/releases etc. without the grief of getting bombarded with (often stupid) questions.

That said, if you are putting out sub-standard products and the thread is open for all to post in, as a rep you are gonna get a hard time and you have to expect that.

It's a difficult one I grant you.

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4 hours ago, Planemo said:

I get what you say, but I also get what bigwave is saying.

Re your above points about screws and waterproofing, I think this should be the default, not a requested 'bonus'. It's basic stuff. It's how Ninebot did it with the Z10, nothing to do with target groups. They just spent shedloads of time and effort making it good from the start and it shows. you only need to strip down a Z and an MSX to see that the difference in build quality is in orders of magnitude. (yes the Z has had problems but overall build quality isn't one of them).

Nope the Z10 is perceive as high build quality. But yet be have very different responses and to a point where even @Jason McNeil couldn't keep selling these due to high failure rates. 

Not it is not like I am blind to quality in general must improve. 

Nor am I impressed with my KS18L first batch issues and KS16X first batch issues. On the other hand if I am so unhappy about it my point t is don't buy until quality and batch has proven to be good enough. 

As long as I as a consumer buy latest build just of the production line I can't put too much blame on manufactor. They didn't force me to buy it. So as a consumer I am myself part of the problem. Just like anyone else doing the same thing.

Sue to this it so important for manufactor to be out at the right time. Meaning no major issues but yet early enough on the yearly cycle and compared to other brands. 

All I really can do is being constructive about my feedback to my dealer and to the reps for the brands. 

That is why I said I don't 100% agree. Nor did I say 100% disagree. 

Now do I expect problems at first with V11. Yes I do. I hope not but I am being realistic too. 

As for the V11 goes we have seen Inmotion taking feedback on board and resulting g in battery cell change to get higher total capacity leading to long range (might be marginal who knows at this point).

They also going to raise max speed. I had hope they didn't do it. But public chants for speed and Inmotion could resist. I just hope this doesn't go into a new KS16X issue. Saying on thing on paper but not delivering in practice.

Unfortunately this is where my voice is drowned in the crowd.

End of the day I still think dialog between customers and manufacturers is very important. 

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2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Nope the Z10 is perceive as high build quality. But yet be have very different responses and to a point where even @Jason McNeil couldn't keep selling these due to high failure rates. 

If you believe that the Z doesn't have high build quality then we are on different planets and we'll leave it there.

And Jason (don't know why you had to tag him) stopped selling them because of one issue with one component. That does not make the build quality bad, it makes one component bad. Crucially, if he had of been receiving support from Ninebot I would suspect that he would have gone out of his way to work with them to find a solution and carried on selling them.

Of course dialogue between customers and vendors is important, I never said it wasn't. I said it's difficult to manage in a forum environment.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I totally get that, I've been there as a sales rep on a forum myself. It's hugely time consuming and full of hassle. I ended up leaving in the end for many of the same reasons you mentioned. It's hassle for the mods too to try and make sure things don't go off at a tangent/get out of hand. Plus the reality is there's very little in it for the retailer Vs what you actually get out of it tbh and I found my time was better spent actually earning the company money rather than dealing with questions that were often nothing to do with what I had initially posted. It can be mitigated somewhat by only the rep/retailer having posting rights so could mainly be used for news and upcoming events/releases etc. without the grief of getting bombarded with (often stupid) questions.

It's a difficult one I grant you.

We're definitely on the same page there. Beyond announcement and info threads where reps/retailers have exclusive posting rights, there's user feedback, which is the tricky part...there are different possible approaches, but it's still somewhat unclear how they'd work out and to what extent they'd make a difference, since reps and retailers can only pass on the info and it's ultimately up to manufacturers to decide...

All the same, I'm happy to give it a try for the community's sake, even if it's a bit of a shot in the dark.  :)

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

That said, if you are putting out sub-standard products and the thread is open for all to post in, as a rep you are gonna get a hard time and you have to expect that.

One man's sub-standard product is another man's massive improvement from last year's wheels. :efee612b4b:

@Unventor has a point about consumers being part of the problem...we EUC addicts keep buying them anyway, fully aware of the quality standards. The issue is for new-comers spending triple and quadruple figures on their first wheel...I remember being outraged at the lack of a usable app when I received my 18XL and couldn't even unlock it; or at the buggy lift sensor (which remains disabled to this day), on a $2.5K wheel. I didn't know about 1st batch issues back then, and these are minor issues compared to fried boards or faceplant potential...

But eventually, we come to accept this and know more or less what to expect, what to stay clear of, etc., but for newcomers it's a whole different story...

Which is why I'm happy to offer some of my time to provide feedback to manufacturers in the hopes they might address certain issues...and since KS seems to be headed in the right direction based on recent patches, upgrades, etc., and IM is also active in other mediums and listening to user feedback, I think it's worth exploring this path to see where it leads. 

Edited by travsformation

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On 5/15/2020 at 4:28 PM, Planemo said:

If you believe that the Z doesn't have high build quality then we are on different planets and we'll leave it there.

And Jason (don't know why you had to tag him) stopped selling them because of one issue with one component. That does not make the build quality bad, it makes one component bad. Crucially, if he had of been receiving support from Ninebot I would suspect that he would have gone out of his way to work with them to find a solution and carried on selling them.

Of course dialogue between customers and vendors is important, I never said it wasn't. I said it's difficult to manage in a forum environment.

I think it is easy to spot several parts. Now I don't own a Z10, but a work college does. Main issue is one of the 2 control boards, then we can add, power drain of batteries, trolley handle and mud guard. I was looking at buying one myself, but dropped it because of control board construction and the battery drain.

I am not saying you cannot fall in love with it. It is live a sports car. It might be unconfutable, but it is fun to ride. It breaks down easy at times.....do people buy it yes they do. I just did not, due to build quality and company support (lag of). I bought a KS16X, I love how it handles, and it keeps me on the edge. It turns out this has some bad things in its design too.

The worst part is imho that KS didn't consider this at all and build the S18 without making water/weather proofing better, yet into an open design. It might work for some, but not for me I am not buying it. Is the V11 much better? I don't know but it doesn’t look to have these issues.

The things that was an issue on V10f has been addressed, fixed we don't know yet, but they had it in focus in their design. They have listened to initial feedback, made slight modifications that was possible to do at this stage. To me that says a lot of what to expect. 

But I could still be wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Unventor said:

I think it is easy to spot several parts. Now I don't own a Z10, but a work college does.

So you've never stripped one down then.

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

Main issue is one of the 2 control boards,

It's a specific component on one board. That makes it a design issue. The build quality of the board is actually exemplary (compared to say a GW).

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

then we can add, power drain of batteries,

Again, not a build quality issue, it's a design issue. I say 'issue' but it's never even approached being one for me nor for many others. I can think of far bigger issues on other wheels.

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

trolley handle and mud guard.

I think you're clutching at straws now to be frank.

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