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Velator

A wheel that can be trusted to correctly warn about its limits?

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Posted (edited)

Hello! A new yet to be a rider here.

My original post was way too long. I'm including it down here since I've already wrote and posted it. Please feel free to not read it at all.

Spoiler

Hello! A new yet-to-be-a-rider here. It was actually my intention not to fall into the bottomless pit of choosing, and just go with my heart. And my heart chose KS-16X, which turned out to be very unfortunate. I went to read up on it a bit, to see if there are any unexpected issues. And the more I've looked, the more it seemed that this wheel is actually the least trustworthy wheel out of all non-obsolete wheels currently on the market.

So I've began to research.
At first I thought that KS is the safe choice, and GW is the "no limits, but dangerous" choice.
But then it started to seem like GWs are actually not that dangerous, because they have more safety margin.
And then I found out that GWs actually have all the warnings too, you are just allowed to disable them.
But it seems that with GW, warnings are either stuck at 50 km/h or completely disabled? (even though GW wheels can safely go above 50 km/h as I understand)

I am now firmly stuck in the aforementioned bottomless pit, and the more I look for information, the more confused I get.

Are KS-16X warnings still not to be trusted, even with newer versions of the board and the firmware?
I find it hard to believe that even after about a year since release, even if my wheel is going to be from a recent manufacturing batch, it would still be a hazard to ride. But I suppose you can expect anything from those Chinese manufacturers.

I've seen an advice to limit the speed to about 43 km/h, but since it's just a static speed limit, I don't think that's actually a solution. Going uphill? Strong headwind? Not full battery? Significantly heavier rider? - manual static limit won't help with any of those.

I can set the warning to 15 km/h and be pretty much perfectly safe on any wheel. But that warning won't be correct, and that wheel won't be fun to ride.

My other wheel options I think are KS-18XL, GW MSX and GW Nikola. And GWs have multiple variants of each, on top of any manufacturer's wheels already being changed a lot along their existence on the market, which doesn't help the confusion at all.

Can KS-18XL be trusted? KingSong can't get it right now, but could before? And since I'm going to be buying it now, it will also have this same "potentially dangerous" motor as on KS-16X.

There are 2 new suspension wheels coming - one is again a KS, but another one is InMotion. Is InMotion quality and safety something that is worth waiting for?
Although that will probably mean that I'm spending another summer without a wheel. Especially since Chinese e-transport tends to have major issues if you buy it as soon as it comes out, and it's better to wait a couple of months to have those issues be already resolved. I've actually been wanting to get an EUC a year ago already, but decided not to for the same reason that I'm writing this post now. But EUCs are so cool, I can't stop wanting to get one.

Really felt like the 16X is the wheel for me, before finding out all the reports of it overleaning for no reason. But if it really is that bad, then to hell with it. Better to ride a wheel that I will like a bit less, than a wheel that I will be afraid to ride.

Why am I already looking at the biggest wheels for my first wheel? I like exploring the city! Just riding around, looking where do the streets lead, finding weird places, for multiple hours at a time. Been doing that a lot on my normal non-electric bicycle, want to try something new now, and EUCs seem like a perfect choice. I've never ridden an EUC before, so I can't say for sure how much speed do I want - I've once rented a e-scooter that was locked to 30 km/h - that's definitely too slow. I don't think I'm going to be riding faster than 50 km/h either. I'm a shorter guy (170cm), and with all the things that are going to be on me, rider weight will probably be about 85kg / 185lbs.

Couple of notes, to avoid unnecessary posts:
* I am going to be riding in gear.
* I understand that any wheel might cutoff if the rider does something unreasonable, like sharply leaning hard while being already close to the maximum speed.

But I do expect the wheel to never throw me off if I accelerate softly while the wheel is not sounding any warnings and not doing the tiltback, including going uphill and having low battery.

I'm pretty good at "feeling" my vehicle, but that's with combustion engines. As I understood from reading some posts and watching some videos about overleans, you can't really feel that you are close to overleaning - the wheel just seems like it's going perfectly fine, and the next second it switches off instantly.

I feel bad nagging the community with questions like that. This information should be provided by the manufacturers in a straightforward form... No, scratch that. There shouldn't even be a need to worry at all about the wheel cutting off within its normal riding conditions at this point, EUCs have existed for long enough already for that.
Sorry for writing an entire novel, I hope it is not annoying to read.

What I've actually wanted to ask boils down to this:

Can all modern ~2000W wheels be trusted to correctly warn of being close to their limits? Only some manufacturer's? Only some specific models? None of the wheels?
I understand that any wheel might overlean if the rider does something unreasonable, but I don't want my wheel to suddenly throw me off when I just softly accelerate on even ground while the wheel is not sounding any warnings.

Is KS-16X specifically still not to be trusted, even if mine is going to be from a recent batch, with newer versions of board and firmware? I was actually already set on buying this wheel and wasn't going to bother the community with my indecisiveness, but that was before I've found all the reports on 16X apparentely faceplanting its riders right and left.

These reports really worry me:
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/17803-16x-cut-off-and-repair-questions/
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16436-ks16x-cutoffoverlean-29-30mph/
The first one happens at 43-44 km/h, noticeably below the wheel's max speed of 50 km/h. The only warning that the wheel has sounded was already too late.
The second one is at the max speed. The report includes a video - a perfectly flat asphalt road, rider not doing anything other than just keeping the same speed. It even apparentely was on a slight downhill, which should increase the margins a bit. The only warning that the wheel has sounded was already too late.
What happened here? Do all wheels do that? Can I get a 16X and not worry about it being more of a hazard than any other wheel, or should I go for some other wheel?

Thanks for reading!

Edited by Velator

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Welcome @Velator!

There exists _no_ wheel that will safely warn you before one overleans! (1)

So points one can regard to increase ones "safety":

- no high accelerations/burdens at higher speeds!

- choose the wheel with most number of lion cells (not exactly right - depending on number of cells in series/parallel and motor coil windings there could be some (very) seldom exceptions...)

- gear up. As you wrote you are doing - something can fail anytime. No matter how great the wheel is. One can overlook some pothole/obstacle sometime - distractions happen!

- The lift cut off speed is one of the most important factors for how fast one can ride (more or less) " safely (in conjunction with the battery capacity and motor design as mentioned in point two)

Tldr: Choose the fastest wheel with the highest capacity and drive the more conservatively as faster you go. While geared up expecting abytime the unexpectable! Train to get never distracted and capture any road irregularity!

... and never forget having fun while riding... :thumbup:

PS.: maybe a bit "off topic" but for "cinpletness": Quality issues change lately quite evenly between the "big" manufacturers. I'd see no too big advantage by choosing one - maybe between some makes could be differences. Especially onces they are freshly released. Normaly this issues get solved quite quickly with the next batches....

Robustness of build could be different, but i lack real experience regarding this matter.

Os.: (1) for details regarding overleans and warning possibilities wheels see (2) 

(2) be prepared to get confronted with numbers, graphs, formulas, scientific considerations and such stuff...

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Posted (edited)

Don't wait. If you wait on the perfect wheel, you will be disappointed and have missed countless days of fun. Every wheel is very similar in how it handles physical limitations. Theres TONS of info here, a lot of it answers most of your questions. Some of your questions are opinion based, so only YOU can answer that. Fwiw, the ks18xl/l (like many others) has proven to be a solid design. Pick one, learn to ride and be ready for the sudden urge to buy more of them later. Good luck!

Edited by ShanesPlanet

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the answers! Going to read the "Anatomy of an overlean" thread now.

 

21 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Don't wait. If you wait on the perfect wheel, you will be disappointed and have missed countless days of fun. Every wheel is very similar in how it handles physical limitations. Theres TONS of info here, a lot of it answers most of your questions. Some of your questions are opinion based, so only YOU can answer that. Fwiw, the ks18xl/l (like many others) has proven to be a solid design. Pick one, learn to ride and be ready for the sudden urge to buy more of them later. Good luck!

I agree with not waiting. But with my worries specifically, I though that it might be worth it to wait this one time, in case InMotion makes wheels that are noticeably more trustworthy than other wheels.

 

My original post was definitely way too long. I've now completely rewrote it to clearly state what I've actually wanted to ask, instead of wasting everyone's time reading it :). It is way shorter now. If it won't trouble you too much, please take a look at it in its current form :D.

Edited by Velator

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Posted (edited)

I was happy to read the whole coherently written post, and it gave a good perspective on your concerns.

 Different manufacturers have different philosophies between the warnings and limits of their wheels. While KS (and I think Inmotion as well) has an overpower warning, I’m not sure if it’s even supposed to play at higher speeds, in a normal overlean situation. GW doesn’t have a direct warning for a high current, but it’s other warnings in conjunction effectively offer the same end result.

GW will always warn when you reach 80% of the no load speed. On my 84V MSX it plays at 58km/h on a full battery, and at 45km/h on an empty battery. Perfectly adequate for me. If I push it hard at nearly empty battery, the voltage will drop and the wheel will warn because of a low battery. So effectively it would warn whenever I’d push it too far.

Of course the biggest difference to other manufacturers is that the top speed limit (tilt-back) can be removed altogether, and even when engaged, it doesn’t decrease with the battery level. But I don’t see GWs as being more dangerous in this regard, actually the opposite in some situations where the rider’s safety comes with the cost of the wheel’s own safety. A GW will burn itself up in order to keep you upright.

I’m not sure about the exact behavior of the 18XL warnings, but KS seems to rely mostly on just reducing the top speed as the battery depletes. The 16X is indeed an outlier, as the top speed of the wheel was increased due to community pressure.

 Worth noting though that there are numerous 16X riders pushing their wheels and constantly riding the top speed tilt-back without issues. So I’m not sure how much worry would be warranted. But as a slightly heavier rider I still wouldn’t consider the 16X for myself.

There are a few other aspects to the different manufacturers though. KS is aggressively trying to stop wheels from being sold at Aliexpress and other unofficial channels, up to the point of preventing firmware upgrades, calibration, speed unlocking, and even locking up the wheels. GW doesn’t, making them even more affordable if you are patient enough to wait for the parcel.

 Inmotion is only now getting back to the top league with the V11, so we don’t yet know how it will stack up. And it could be September until you would get your’s. But I’d expect the build quality to be the best of the bunch.


Edit: We should have the first reviews on the V11 demo units in maybe a month, maybe even sooner. I would perhaps wait that much still.

Edited by mrelwood

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