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No Money, No Wheel: Be Careful buying here!!!


mezzanine
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This is just a general warning for anyone considering buying a used wheel via the forum.  It looks like I'm about to be fully scammed (no money, no wheel) by a user here and I don't want to see this happen to anyone else.  The mods can't do anything for users who get scammed.  

Paypal isn't nearly as helpful in these situations as you might assume.  The seller can just cancel the delivery once it's been sent or intentionally use an incorrect address to have the package returned to them.  If they know how the paypal system works, they can use that knowledge to game the claims/dispute system.  

I'm sure 95% of the sellers here are legit, but ask yourself if it's worth taking the risk you'll get scammed. Make sure the poster you're buying from is active on the forum and has a reputation here.  There should be a minimum post count for anyone to sell a wheel and a feedback forum for those who have completed transactions to leave comments about the transaction.  

My feeling is that there is way too much that can go wrong with these wheels, especially with batteries, to have confidence buying a used wheel from anyone who isn't confirmed as trustworthy through the community.  There's WAY too much incentive for people with a broken wheel to attempt to dump it on someone unsuspecting and some issues are hard to identify quickly.  

Paypal's call center is COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN right now due to covid!  This is the perfect time for scammers to strike.  

Edited by mezzanine
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I don't get it ,don't you sell something ,receive money from PayPal first then send shipment with prof of postage via ups etc then everything is ok ,,  what's gone wrong?

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1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

It looks like I'm about to be fully scammed (no money, no wheel) by a user here and I don't want to see this happen to anyone else. 

This already the "final ruling" from paypal's site or they are still considering or open to documentation/arguments?

You know by chance if, if one uses paypal one gives up (most of) his legal rights or still can involve a lawyer? Especially if one has a legal expenses insurance?

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1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

This is just a general warning for anyone considering buying a used wheel via the forum.  It looks like I'm about to be fully scammed (no money, no wheel) by a user here and I don't want to see this happen to anyone else.  The mods can't do anything for users who get scammed.  

Paypal isn't nearly as helpful in these situations as you might assume.  The seller can just cancel the delivery once it's been sent or intentionally use an incorrect address to have the package returned to them.  If they know how the paypal system works, they can use that knowledge to game the claims/dispute system.  

I'm sure 95% of the sellers here are legit, but ask yourself if it's worth taking the risk you'll get scammed. Make sure the poster you're buying from is active on the forum and has a reputation here.  There should be a minimum post count for anyone to sell a wheel and a feedback forum for those who have completed transactions to leave comments about the transaction.  

My feeling is that there is way too much that can go wrong with these wheels, especially with batteries, to have confidence buying a used wheel from anyone who isn't confirmed as trustworthy through the community.  There's WAY too much incentive for people with a broken wheel to attempt to dump it on someone unsuspecting and some issues are hard to identify quickly.  

Paypal's call center is COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN right now due to covid!  This is the perfect time for scammers to strike.  

If you paid via credit card through paypal all you have to do is contact your credit card company and file a chargeback or fraud to get your money back.  As far as paypal goes they usually side with the buyer unless the seller can prove delivery and even then they still tend to side with the buyer,  I've had buyers try to scam me this way before and have friends that have been scammed this way. If you paid "friends and family" style then it's on you, never ever do that. 

Also why not out the scammer?  

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I made a big mistake by not fully understanding the paypal dispute process.  Make sure you don't react emotionally (which is difficult when you believe you're being scammed) and fully process and understand the claims process before you file a claim.  I suffer from a cognitive disability and didn't realize that I was selecting the option that I'd already received the wheel.  Not an excuse, it's my responsibility to recognize when I'm at risk of misunderstanding something.  This allowed the seller to cancel the shipment while it was enroute (or he intentionally mislabeled the shipping destination, I don't know). 

I've tried to indicate to paypal that the wheel never arrived, but because I made the initial mistake of indicating the wrong option when filing the claim, it isn't clear that my attempt to provide the tracking number proving the wheel never arrived and was returned to the sender will be understood by the paypal investigator.  

Chriull, I appreciate your feedback.  This has been devastating because the cost of this wheel is 1/10th of my yearly income.  I rely on wheels for my transportation.  All my research suggests that you're at paypal's mercy regarding legal recourse.  

Willy, I'm going to contact my bank, but I'm not optimistic.  This was paid via a debit card.  What's crazy is that I shouldn't have even been able to make the payment because I was prompted to provide identity verification before I could make payment.  The seller sent me a link and is very skillful at using the paypal system as I've learned through the way he's managed the dispute process to get the wheel back and the money.  


I'm now 4 and a half hours on hold to paypal by phone!  I'm now up to $30 just on the phone bill to be kept on hold to try to get someone in person to help me.  The big warning I have for people is not to use paypal for purchases with any kind of risk right now.  There is no way to get help via phone from paypal right now and it puts one at serious risk of being scammed.  

Edited by mezzanine
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12 minutes ago, shellac said:

Anybody use services like escrow.com for this kind of thing before?

At this point, my primary goal is to prevent this from happening to anyone else.  A big key to understand is that scammers are absolute experts at knowing the system and being able to game it, so if you're completely unfamiliar with paypal, like myself, you're at a serious disadvantage.  

These wheels are so risky to buy used because of potential battery issues, which is what I got caught on.  You can have a catastrophic battery problem and the buyer can still claim in it's "like new."  That's how I got caught.  Think really carefully before buying a used wheel.  

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27 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

I made a big mistake by not fully understanding the paypal dispute process.  Make sure you don't react emotionally (which is difficult when you believe you're being scammed) and fully process and understand the claims process before you file a claim.  I suffer from a cognitive disability and didn't realize that I was selecting the option that I'd already received the wheel.  Not an excuse, it's my responsibility to recognize when I'm at risk of misunderstanding something.  This allowed the seller to cancel the shipment while it was enroute (or he intentionally mislabeled the shipping destination, I don't know). 

Maybe it could help if you file a new complete, consice statement of the facts including all available documentation with the help of another "third party" - who is not emotionally involved and has eventually a bit legal/paypal/merchandising/mediation experience?

Including the mentioning and explanation of your "faults"/mishaps/emotional situation?

Most probably the "dispute regulators" from paypal are overworked and underpaid - and from what i get here briefly about you doing emotional, wrong/faulty/contradicting filings it is the way of least work/effort to decide against you! To change their mind and make them invest time some new serious input from your side could change the situation?

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41 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

I made a big mistake by not fully understanding the paypal dispute process.  Make sure you don't react emotionally (which is difficult when you believe you're being scammed) and fully process and understand the claims process before you file a claim.  I suffer from a cognitive disability and didn't realize that I was selecting the option that I'd already received the wheel.  Not an excuse, it's my responsibility to recognize when I'm at risk of misunderstanding something.  This allowed the seller to cancel the shipment while it was enroute (or he intentionally mislabeled the shipping destination, I don't know). 

I've tried to indicate to paypal that the wheel never arrived, but because I made the initial mistake of indicating the wrong option when filing the claim, it isn't clear that my attempt to provide the tracking number proving the wheel never arrived and was returned to the sender will be understood by the paypal investigator.  

Chriull, I appreciate your feedback.  This has been devastating because the cost of this wheel is 1/10th of my yearly income.  I rely on wheels for my transportation.  All my research suggests that you're at paypal's mercy regarding legal recourse.  

Willy, I'm going to contact my bank, but I'm not optimistic.  This was paid via a debit card.  What's crazy is that I shouldn't have even been able to make the payment because I was prompted to provide identity verification before I could make payment.  The seller sent me a link and is very skillful at using the paypal system as I've learned through the way he's managed the dispute process to get the wheel back and the money.  


I'm now 4 and a half hours on hold to paypal by phone!  I'm now up to $30 just on the phone bill to be kept on hold to try to get someone in person to help me.  The big warning I have for people is not to use paypal for purchases with any kind of risk right now.  There is no way to get help via phone from paypal right now and it puts one at serious risk of being scammed.  

Skype is only around $5 a month if you need to stay on hold for a long time.  or  you can use a google voice # to call sometimes but may need someone in the US to set up the # if youre outside the country. 

Debit cards have the same protections as a credit card depending on what country you're in. Also never use a debit card to pay for anything online since they hold the money until the end of investigation. 

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