Drove my EUC into a lake

[alcatraz]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:38 PM, LukeRian said:

Hey Guys apologies for the late reply, as requested the full story of the Tesla falling into the lake goes like so: I was waiting for my wife to get off work (she works at a restaurant off of the lake) so I had been riding my Tesla around the lake for about an hour before the incident. I was going down a slight hill and immediately hit an unseen pothole which sent me flying off of the EUC. There were numerous spectators, watching as my Tesla rolled down the hill into the water. I quickly realized I needed to get it out and dove in after it. Here's the best part though- it still works. (Minus the LEDs) I took it home and took the entire machine apart to dry off the internals and take out all of the moss/rocks that had made their way inside of my Tesla. I used the air compressor to dry off all of the connectors and electronics and she works perfectly. Rode her about 15 Miles earlier today, just need to get some new lights now!

How long was your tesla submerged

Was it in an uncrashed condition without any cracks? I always worry about riding mine in the rain. Maybe I shouldn't be so concerned.

What I would worry about is water in the batteries. When those corrode they deteriorate real fast.

[LanghamP]

On 5/6/2020 at 6:36 AM, travsformation said:

Constant double-clutching, matching the rpms, heel-toe braking-acceleration...Count me in! 

I can do all that, but I choose to drive an automatic Kia Forte because the poor design of manual cars offends me.

Slightly off topic, but my mother was trained and rated to drive all ground vehicles, including 18 wheelers and armored vehicles, as an officer of the US army. I always thought that was cool.

[WI_Hedgehog]

25 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I can do all that, but I choose to drive an automatic Kia Forte because the poor design of manual cars offends me.

Talk about poor design.... 

(I hope you find it funny)

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[LukeRian]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:25 AM, alcatraz said:

How long was your tesla submerged

Was it in an uncrashed condition without any cracks? I always worry about riding mine in the rain. Maybe I shouldn't be so concerned.

What I would worry about is water in the batteries. When those corrode they deteriorate real fast.

It was submerged for about 15 seconds at 4 feet before I dove into the lake and retrieved it. I've still been riding it, bought new lights for it and installed them yesterday. I dont think rain would be much of an issue with the Tesla. When I took it apart to clean it I noticed the majority of the electronics are at the top of the wheel, so you would really have to be driving fast through some deep puddles to splash water all the way up in there. If you ride responsibly in the rain, I dont forsee any issue.

Edited May 13, 2020 by LukeRian

[travsformation]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:53 PM, LanghamP said:

Slightly off topic, but my mother was trained and rated to drive all ground vehicles, including 18 wheelers and armored vehicles, as an officer of the US army. I always thought that was cool.

That is cool 

But with all the more reason it leaves me wondering why her son drives a Kia 

[.....]

On 5/8/2020 at 11:53 AM, LanghamP said:

I can do all that, but I choose to drive an automatic Kia Forte because the poor design of manual cars offends me.

I think you said that backwards. Automatic gearboxes are notorious for needing replaced LONG before a manual. The trucking industry used manuals exclusively, until they had to lower the skill it took, to fill the seats. Same with parallel parking. It became too difficult to bother learn, so they omitted it from the test.  If it was about safety at all at the DMV, they'd be failing MANY times more drivers. Some people honestly will never gain the coordination to drive safely, but they pay taxes so...  I'd say the manual gearbox is superior in design, as it enables a QUALIFIED driver to more safely operate the vehicle. I can't count how many times my automatic truck has put me in danger, in compare to my manual car. My truck transmission is about dead at 185k, my car shifts great at almost 400k miles. I know this thread isnt a manual vs auto thread, but I just couldnt ignore the irony of a man driving an automatic KIA and then being offended by poor design.

Edited May 13, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'd say the manual gearbox is superior in design, as it enables a QUALIFIED driver to more safely operate the vehicle. I can't count how many times my automatic truck has put me in danger, in compare to my manual car. 

Exactly. I think it's much more unlikely an experienced driver would mix up the pedals in a stick shift: even if it isn't an intentional safety feature, the fact you have to seek the right amount of throttle while easing off the clutch, and do this time and time again, creates much greater pedal placement awareness---to the point that mixing up the pedals is something practically unheard of here in Spain, where automatics make up only 20% of all sales...

The other (unintended) advantage is that in the event of a pedal mix-up from a stand-still or at low speeds, one is likely to instinctively release the throttle upon realizing his mistake, which will lead to the car stalling and the gearbox locking the vehicle in place.

[LanghamP]

13 hours ago, travsformation said:

That is cool 

But with all the more reason it leaves me wondering why her son drives a Kia 

I love my 10 year old Kia Forte hatchback. It has been dead reliable except for the clock messing up in cold weather. When I complained about it, Kia sent me a $500 gift card for my troubles.

Everything just works really really nicely, and I bought it after a lot of research for a cheap and cheerful car. This model had been out for about four years so they got all the bugs, plus it was one of the most reliable car according to the three biggest rental agencies in the USA. Also, it was $14,200 after tax and licensing.

One could always buy a BMW or such vehicle, if one was concerned with the driving experience, vehicle depreciation, replacement costs, warranty length, and reliability.

In regards to user interface, my Kia suffers from the poor interface that all standard cars do. That is, two pedals doing opposite actions are placed side by side. That is better than your standard stick shift which depends on heel toe.

Heel and toe is stupid, which is why modern sports cars use sequential shifters, and all modern sport bikes use a rear torque limiter. Amusingly, my 10 year old Forte has a true sequential shifter (a plus/minus gate).

Ultimately, my car has a bike rack/hitch, can tow 3000 pounds, can transport lots of stuff with the rear seats down, doesn't have any dents or chipped paint, has been dead reliable, has side airbags, gets nearly 420 miles per tank (~38 miles per gallon), and it was what I could afford with cash at that time.

I think, ultimately, a lot of drivers are too concerned with the car ownership experience. Car manufacturers try to convince you that you can be sexy with their car, and that you can drive through these curvy two lane roads, and all that jazz. However, my personal experience with cars is that I'm either on the highway and stuck in city traffic, and since I don't move much in a car I get fat. Ultimately, whatever a car promises (via ads), it is a bicycle that actually delivers.

[LanghamP]

7 hours ago, travsformation said:

Exactly. I think it's much more unlikely an experienced driver would mix up the pedals in a stick shift: even if it isn't an intentional safety feature, the fact you have to seek the right amount of throttle while easing off the clutch, and do this time and time again, creates much greater pedal placement awareness---to the point that mixing up the pedals is something practically unheard of here in Spain, where automatics make up only 20% of all sales...

How safe is the new driver (who doesn't know or even have much interest in driving) to himself and others while learning/practicing a manual on public roads?

[travsformation]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Heel and toe is stupid, which is why modern sports cars use sequential shifters

They still suffer from two pedals placed side by side serving opposite purposes though 

What would you suggest? 

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I think, ultimately, a lot of drivers are too concerned with the car ownership experience. Car manufacturers try to convince you that you can be sexy with their car, and that you can drive through these curvy two lane roads, and all that jazz.

I completely agree with that

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

How safe is the new driver (who doesn't know or even have much interest in driving) to himself and others while learning/practicing a manual on public roads?

Depends on the country. Here in Spain you can't practice on public roads until you've passed your theoretical exam, and once you can, it's with a certified instructor in a specially equipped car with a clutch, brakes and throttle on the passenger's side. 

When learning a stick shift, starting and low-speed driving are the most difficult parts, and in those scenarios the risks are negligible compared to the risks at high speeds. Higher speed driving isn't allowed by instructors until the basics have been mastered to the point it's deemed safe, so risks at high-speed are similar to an automatic

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

still suffer from two pedals placed side by side serving opposite purposes though 

What would you suggest? 

Wrong pedal is frequent.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/2018/02/27/why-do-so-many-drivers-crash-into-buildings/362650002/

The leading causes of these crashes are operator error and pedal error, which account for 30 percent and 26 percent of these crashes, respectively, according to Reiter and Wright. Operator error often means drivers accelerated too much or were speeding, or were in the wrong gear, Reiter said, while pedal error almost always means the driver mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake.

It's a lot of crashes...

Drivers crash their cars into buildings an astonishing 60 times per day on average — crashes that kill as many as 500 people every year, and injure at least 4,000 more, according to research from advocacy group the Storefront Safety Council. And most of these crashes aren’t the result of dramatic police chases or auto-assisted, smash-and-grab robberies; they’re the nearly inevitable side effect of car-dominated cities that insist on allowing automobiles to drive right up to the doorway of virtually every home, school and business.

I think a single pedal that is pushed forward for acceleration or pulled back for braking would eliminate virtually all wrong pedal applications, because that exactly mimics the natural motion of leaning forward or backwards.

I mean, ever heard of an EUC rider losing control of his wheel by leaning the wrong way and it going away from him?

 

[.....]

50 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I mean, ever heard of an EUC rider losing control of his wheel by leaning the wrong way and it going away from him?

Almost every time I ride.

[Rehab1]

23 hours ago, travsformation said:

Exactly. I think it's much more unlikely an experienced driver would mix up the pedals in a stick shift:

 

[travsformation]

11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Wrong pedal is frequent.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/2018/02/27/why-do-so-many-drivers-crash-into-buildings/362650002/

The leading causes of these crashes are operator error and pedal error, which account for 30 percent and 26 percent of these crashes, respectively, according to Reiter and Wright. Operator error often means drivers accelerated too much or were speeding, or were in the wrong gear, Reiter said, while pedal error almost always means the driver mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake.

It's a lot of crashes...

Drivers crash their cars into buildings an astonishing 60 times per day on average — crashes that kill as many as 500 people every year, and injure at least 4,000 more, according to research from advocacy group the Storefront Safety Council. And most of these crashes aren’t the result of dramatic police chases or auto-assisted, smash-and-grab robberies; they’re the nearly inevitable side effect of car-dominated cities that insist on allowing automobiles to drive right up to the doorway of virtually every home, school and business.

I think a single pedal that is pushed forward for acceleration or pulled back for braking would eliminate virtually all wrong pedal applications, because that exactly mimics the natural motion of leaning forward or backwards.

I mean, ever heard of an EUC rider losing control of his wheel by leaning the wrong way and it going away from him?

 

I understand the reasoning and share the sentiment, but I don't think it's down to changing driving dynamics, but stricter screening. These are the same people that stick fingers into waste disposal units, take their toast out of the toaster with metal forks and need signs telling them not to jump over the fence into the lion's habitat at the zoo...it's just a matterv of keeping them away from cars so they're a danger to no one but themselves 

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:48 PM, LanghamP said:

I think a single pedal that is pushed forward for acceleration or pulled back for braking would eliminate virtually all wrong pedal applications, because that exactly mimics the natural motion of leaning forward or backwards.

I think you mean a leaver, because a pedal is a push-only device by design. Leavers are fore-aft controls, pedals are forward controls only (think of a backhoe, it has both pedals and leavers).

What should the leaver control? People think of the accelerator pedal as controlling acceleration, but it actually controls fuel delivery. This leads to imprecise control due to wind resistance, hills, corners, etc. and requires constant correction. It should therefore control speed.

However, since traffic flow varies, that means one hand needs to stay on that control, leaving one hand free to steer. Steering wheels are designed for two-handed use, therefore that control needs to change to another leaver: the left-right leaver. That's where the confusion sets in, two similar controls doing two different things.

So the steering should be moved to the speed leaver, making it more of a joystick (multi-axis input control). Helicopters use this (the cyclic). This leaves the other hand free to operate the other controls such as directional indicators.

Since the stick function is highly important, it should be assigned to the dominant side of the body, which for most people is the right side. For cars with the driver on the left (United States, to name one large country), it makes the infotainment center inaccessible, which can be eliminated anyway since drivers should reduce distractions as much as possible.

The problem with the stick though, is fatigue. It dedicates one body part to fine motor control over extended periods of time and in a fixed position, often in stressful situations which enhance fatigue. This leads to loss of fine motor control, and therefore loss of control of the vehicle. The stick has to go.

Now that the stick has been removed, there's no vehicular movement control. This is a huge issue, as the stick is a highly functional control device and removing the stick ignores the true source of the problem: the driver. The stick can stay, the driver has to go. This is a logical conclusion since vehicles rarely are at fault in "unintended events" such as collisions. Even then, it's often due to negligent maintenance or operation, since a vehicle on it's own is simply a mechanical device, and as such prone to occasional mechanical failure (which is to be expected). If the person under who's control the vehicle is operated operates it in a prudent manner understanding mechanical failure is immanent (at some point something will break), that eliminates most of the risk, including the risk attributed to driver!

So the real problem has been determined: It is not the controls, it is the operator.

Edited May 15, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[Planemo]

23 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

So the real problem has been determined: It is not the controls, it is the operator.

I think you're right.

I do understand that the easier and more natural you make the machine/human interface the better it should be for all, but we're not talking about pushing around a shopping trolley and there's only so far we should bend over to ensure we accommodate the idiots IMO. A vehicle is a serious piece of equipment and there comes a point when some just never get it. I've never mixed up pedals in 30 years of driving but if I did I think I would have to question myself as to whether I should get behind the wheel of a car again. In fact I can answer that now, I wouldn't. Such a serious automatic error (even just once) means it would likely happen again or it could manifest in any number of other areas when driving.

Make the driving test as thorough as an aircraft one and I am sure we would see a hulluva lot less people getting killed. Unfortunately, I suspect driving tests aren't going to get more difficult anytime soon, so as much as I enjoy my driving, roll on the day when it gets totally taken away from us and everything is autonomous. Except EUC's of course.

I really do struggle with vehicle collisions, I blame years of frontline policing but the reality is that I think driving should be severely restricted to those that have undergone serious training. I love the freedom my car gives but I would give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we slashed the injuries/deaths that we currently have 

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

So the real problem has been determined: It is not the controls, it is the operator.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

A vehicle is a serious piece of equipment and there comes a point when some just never get it. I've never mixed up pedals in 30 years of driving but if I did I think I would have to question myself as to whether I should get behind the wheel of a car again. In fact I can answer that now, I wouldn't. Such a serious automatic error (even just once) means it would likely happen again or it could manifest in any number of other areas when driving.

I think driving should be severely restricted to those that have undergone serious training. I love the freedom my car gives but I would give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we slashed the injuries/deaths that we currently have 

+100 ! 

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I think driving should be severely restricted to those that have undergone serious training. I love the freedom my car gives but I would give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we slashed the injuries/deaths that we currently have 

Police are rigorously trained, but some still sell illegal drugs, launder money, are paid to ignore crime, follow government orders they know are unconstitutional for the sake of keeping their job, ...

Drivers are trained more now than previously, so in theory they should be safer. That is not a direct outcome though.

What has negatively impacted us is: people are held less accountable for their actions than previously, not just in driving, but daily life.

This morning I was doing 50 MPH on the 4-lane freeway in light traffic, so plenty of space all around me. Minimum speed is 45, maximum 55. Guy gets behind me and lays on the horn. He wants to do 65+, in the slow lane, with plenty of room to go around me at any time. This is not uncommon, even on empty city streets on a Sunday morning. Often, the driver is the problem.

Edited May 15, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog