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Firmware 2.02 for KS16X


travsformation

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2 hours ago, travsformation said:

Β 

Mine's a 2nd batch, delivered in January 2019 (edit 1.07).

Januar 2019 you are timetraveler ⏭ i think you mean 2020. Becasue mine is created 10.8.2019 with FW 1.05 πŸš€πŸ›ΈπŸ›ΈπŸ›ΈπŸ›ΈπŸš€

Edited by DjPanJan
1.07
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Okay, I'm dumb, I'm just using the regular kingsong app and have done an update that it prompted me to do yesterday then it prompted me to do another one today, which I did both but now I'm looking at it and it still says that I'm running 1.07, and that I am running the latest firmware.Β  Do I need to load another site somewhere to be able to get this 2.02?

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Do you have android access? Mine did that on a prior update from KingSong app. I have no idea why, but eventually it worked. Since then, EUCW has that option and I would trust it WAY more than the KS version of an app. You could always use this as an excuse to go buy a droid device for less than $100 :clap3:

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4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

No face plants during my first 2000km on FW 1.05 and no face plants on my most recent 300km.
And I have pushed... and pushed today. I got soft tiltback at 48kmh at 80% battery and pushed it to a bit harder tiltback.

Thanks for the thorough answer (as always!)Β :)

Very reassuring, I'm sold on the safety side!

4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Later, I was at a skate park and went down a verrrrrry steep incline and fell on my ass though. The wheel didn't cut, it's just that even the hardest pedal mode is a bit squishy so I lost balance and tried to slow the wheel down way too much when I should have just let it flow. This incline was like dropping down into a steep skate bowl.
Anyway my ass is fine! So it's all good.

Not great at downhills/braking, I'll give you that. I think a lot of it has to do with the shape too, and less surface (compared to a traditional-shapedΒ round wheel) to grip when leaning way back. But still, that kind of steep...either go with it or ass-plant. Glad you saved ass!Β 

4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I don't use FW 1.05 for speed. I use it for the improved torque. You can torque over rocks and roots with FW 1.05.
It is also much better at climbing hills.
Sometimes I do miss the stiff pedals of FW 1.07 hard mode though.

16X FW 1.07 vs 18XL FW 2.0x is somewhat similar. One has to compare side to side and analyse differences with the 18XLΒ feeling a bit more heavy. Just a bit.
16X FW 1.05... ride that.. then get on the 18XL and for 5 minutes you will say... damn so this is what a 18" feels like. It will feel relatively sluggish.

For me... 16X FW 1.05 is the truest representation of the 16X and all its potential.

Yeah, the 18XL feels much more tank-like to ride, but torque-wise on 2.0x it isn't too far behind the 16X on 1.0.7.

Excellent description andΒ selling pointsΒ for 1.0.5, I think it's time to give it a try! Thanks!Β :D

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1 hour ago, RetroThruster said:

Okay, I'm dumb, I'm just using the regular kingsong app and have done an update that it prompted me to do yesterday then it prompted me to do another one today, which I did both but now I'm looking at it and it still says that I'm running 1.07, and that I am running the latest firmware.Β  Do I need to load another site somewhere to be able to get this 2.02?

Android, I imagine? If so, you're not getting 2.02 because it's still in beta and not available through theΒ regularΒ app. I would wait until it's a stable release before you consider upgrading, the only noticeable change is pedal tilt, I don't think it's worth installing a beta FW just for thatΒ :)

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12 hours ago, travsformation said:

Android, I imagine? If so, you're not getting 2.02 because it's still in beta and not available through theΒ regularΒ app. I would wait until it's a stable release before you consider upgrading, the only noticeable change is pedal tilt, I don't think it's worth installing a beta FW just for thatΒ :)

Yeah, I'm using an Android phone, I was primarily looking for the pedal tilt option, I'll wait til it's available on the regular app, thanks for the help!!

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So what becomes of 1.08 firmware that the recent batch users including meΒ are using? It hasnt even been fully released and all of the sudden 2.02 test version will pop out?

Well whatever the reason, I hope they change the braking torque on the new firmware; match it with acceleration. Every 1.08 firmwareΒ 16x users in my community are unanimously saying how acceleration is good but brakes are more dragging and slower compared to even the MSX and especially on downhills they feel more on edge. Brakes are very important when it comes to safety especially with wheels with this much power and speed.Β @Jack King Song

Edited by DannyK
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I don't see how a wheel can brake "better" or "harder," or in general have "more torque" because of firmware.Β  If I move the rider/wheel system CG forward 2cm (let's say), the wheel must react with sufficient acceleration to remain balanced (the pedals feel like they stay level). No firmware can change the physics of that, because if the wheel accelerated faster, the pedals would feel like they're tilting backward, and if it accelerated even faster than that, the rider would experience a hard tiltback and probably be thrown off the back.Β  Physics mandates the exact motor speed changes necessary to keep the pedals level. So, how does firmware affect torque?Β My understanding of wheel physics is that if you lean X, you get acceleration Y to achieve a new equilibrium speed, or you faceplant because the wheel couldn't quite achieve Y.Β Larger wheels require more lean because of the geometry involved in moving the system's CG. Heavier wheels respond/react more slowlyΒ due to more rotational inertia causing angular changes to occur more slowly. If a wheel's mass and wheel size doesn't change, the torque involved in "handling" a particular rider foot position and leaning angle change will always be identical for the pedals to remain level. I suppose a firmware could make small pedal angle changes (via micro-accelerations/decelerations), though, to facilitate/amplify the rider's intended CG shifts, and a smarter firmware would do this better and feel more responsive as a result. Is that what's happening here?

Btw, on the general v2.02 firmware topic: I downloaded SoftTuner on my iPhone a couple weeks ago, and wasn't aware until recentlyΒ that it offers beta firmware for installation, and didn't notice that the 2.02 was missing a description, so I installed it to my 18XL, and have been running it for a few dozen miles so far.Β  Works fine as far as I can tell, even if it is beta.

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5 hours ago, svenomous said:

I don't see how a wheel can brake "better" or "harder," or in general have "more torque" because of firmware.

The KS fw 2.0 is a magnificent example on how it can, art leastΒ on the 18XL and 16S.

Quote

you lean X, you get acceleration Y

The EUC is not a mechanical device with a direct 1:1 link. The firmware will react differently to the same input under different circumstances.

Β Take the GW soft mode for an example: The wheel will tilt forwards slowly during an acceleration. Therefore theΒ firmware must haveΒ specific load curves,Β tilt curves and situational rules etc toΒ act against.

3 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

This has partlyΒ been discussed a bit in the "what determines wheel zippiness" thread.Β  Which eventually went bananas.Β :laughbounce2:
Β 

I love bananas! :D

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6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The KS fw 2.0 is a magnificent example on how it can, art leastΒ on the 18XL and 16S.

The EUC is not a mechanical device with a direct 1:1 link. The firmware will react differently to the same input under different circumstances.

Β Take the GW soft mode for an example: The wheel will tilt forwards slowly during an acceleration. Therefore theΒ firmware must haveΒ specific load curves,Β tilt curves and situational rules etc toΒ act against.

I love bananas! :D

They can be slippery and cause all sorts of chaos when you step on a banana peel...Β :efee612b4b:

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5 hours ago, travsformation said:

They can be slippery and cause all sorts of chaos when you step on a banana peel...Β :efee612b4b:

Don’t dislocated your shoulder again orΒ I’llΒ be compelledΒ to assume it was totallyΒ unrelated to an EUC accident.
Β 

49859937233_10b250a854_m.jpg

Β 

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13 hours ago, travsformation said:

This is speculation, but I have a feelingΒ 1.0.8 and 2.02 are the same FW, renamed to make naming coherent across different wheels.Β Can do adjust pedal angle? If so, it's quite likely that's the case.

I don't see any issue in braking, neither in 1.0.7 nor in 2.02. Granted, it doesn't brake like the 18XL, but I'm pretty sure that has more to do with the shape of the wheel than anything else: the 18XL has a lot more surface to clamp your legs aroundΒ the rear sides when leaning backΒ Β & braking. So much so that you can lean way back (as if doing a superman acceleration in reverse) while still gripping onto the wheel. You'd quickly run out of side-panel surface with the 16X, which is why you have to go into the (in)famousΒ 16X squatΒ (so you can displace your center of gravity further back while still gripping onto the wheel). Or that's my theory at least...

In any case, comparing braking capacity of a specific FW version to...another wheel (from another manufacturer) makes no sense. It doesn't matter what FW you're on, a 16X is never going to behave like an MSX, just like an MSX with upgraded FW (:efee612b4b:)Β isn't going toΒ accelerate as effortlessly as a 16X. Apples and oranges...Anything other than a comparison with another 16X (same batch) provides no meaningful data.Β 

It's also worth noting that (onΒ any wheel), braking torque is never going toΒ feel the sameΒ as acceleration torque, it's simple physics: you're fighting inertia.Β The available torque isn't being put to use the same way as when accelerating, it's applying force in the directionΒ opposite to your forward momentum, so its has more forces to contend with and is forcibly (excuse the pun)Β less efficientΒ (to put it simply). Braking torque can never match acceleration torque, the same way accelerating forward while reversing can never rival acceleration when travelling forwardΒ ;)

But back to FW,Β if you're not pleased with the FW, or aren't comfortable using 1.0.8, you can always downgrade to 1.0.7Β :)

As to braking, like @Mike SacristanΒ said, foot positioning makes a big difference.Β I also tend to ride with my toes hanging off the front of the pedals, so braking is, needless to say, affected. I've ended up putting one foot further back than the other---that's the foot I use for braking (and I go alternating feet from time to time). It's makes power-braking much easier. So does carving while braking...it isn't as effective as the taking-a-shit squat technique, but IMHO, it looks cooler / helps me preserve my dignityΒ :efee612b4b:

Lol I can make the "taking-a-shit squat look good... as for @DannyKΒ you seem insistently unsatisfied even with several viable solutions in front of you. Just pick a firmware you like and if you still aren't happy with your 16x then you picked the wrong wheel. Otherwise it's easy to assume you are blaming your lack of technical skill and ability to adapt on kingsong's firmware

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14 hours ago, Nimbus2000 said:

Lol I can make the "taking-a-shit squat look good...

:roflmao:

I think I speak for everyone when I say "Video or it didn't happen"Β :PΒ 

14 hours ago, Nimbus2000 said:

as for @DannyKΒ you seem insistently unsatisfied even with several viable solutions in front of you. Just pick a firmware you like and if you still aren't happy with your 16x then you picked the wrong wheel. Otherwise it's easy to assume you are blaming your lack of technical skill and ability to adapt on kingsong's firmware

I entirely agree that a lot of constructive advice has been given, FW downgrading being a perfectly viable solution.Β 

As to @DannyK, he hasn't yet replied to the suggestions given on the subject. I think everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusionsΒ :)

Edited by travsformation
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Hey guys, tested 2.02 for two full rides over two days and here was myΒ experience:

Slightly more agressiveΒ acceleration - loved it.

The growl sounds different - perhaps a little bit louder, but more low pitched and "growly" like you expect power to sound likeΒ - loved it

Was not a believer of the deceleration thing at first, thought it had to be down toΒ calibration. Tried recalibrating many times at slightly different angles, tried many pedal angles but still experienced lower deceleration on all of them. Needless to say I am a believerΒ now.Β 

@Mike SacristanΒ glad to see an advocate for 1.05! Have always wanted to try out the "downgrade"Β as my 16x never really felt as lively as my old gt16. Still wonder what was the definite reason some people experienced cutouts and pedal dipsΒ and yet someΒ like yourself never had any problems.Β 

I always respect my wheel and never fight the tiltback or beeps anyways. I'm light as hell and use protection all the timeΒ so hopefullyΒ IΒ might be able to get off scott-free as well. Still resisting the urge to installΒ 1.05 until the day my temptation eventually wins over.

What's your take on cutouts? Preventable with the right user behaviour or an inevatibility based on software flaws?

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21 hours ago, Tinkererboi said:

Slightly more agressiveΒ acceleration - loved it.

OK, so it's not just meΒ :thumbup:

21 hours ago, Tinkererboi said:

Was not a believer of the deceleration thing at first, thought it had to be down toΒ calibration. Tried recalibrating many times at slightly different angles, tried many pedal angles but still experienced lower deceleration on all of them. Needless to say I am a believerΒ now.Β 

So you're also experiencing worse deceleration/braking in 2.02 compared to 1.07? I was wondering whether it was just me...

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This is completely off-topic,Β Β but @SebaΒ has asked Jack Kingsong about the possibility of muting KS wheels' confirmation beepsΒ (when connecting to the wheel, making changes in the app, etc.) in future FW upgrades but there are currently only 7 users following the thread where the request was posted. I imagine there are MANY of us who'd love to be able to mute them (to not wake up the the entire household when leaving home in the morning, to not draw (even more) attention to ourselves when at a restaurant/cafΓ©, etc.,Β to not get caught when sneaking out to the pub...Β :efee612b4b:), so this is a good chance for KS users to show our support for this very desirable request!

To do so, simply follow this link and like Seba's post. No more, no less.

PleaseΒ refrain from adding additional requests, tagging Jack (which I've deliberately avoided doing in this post), asking him questions, complaining about issues (including the beeps! :P), making accusations, etc. We're very fortunate to have a KS representative in the forum so there's a direct channel with the manufacturer, but remember that it's just one person, heΒ can't keep up with the questions and requests of an entire forum as it's virtually impossible, soΒ please let mods and app developers channel requests so we don't overwhelm him. He's doing us a massive favour by sticking around, so let's be grateful and respectful!Β 

So to reiterate,Β I'm only asking you to like Seba's post (nothing more!) if you would like to be able to mute the beeps on your KS wheels.Β :)Β 

P.S. Sorry if this is borderline spamming, but I think it's an issue worth giving visibility to. I'm not selling anythingΒ :D

Edited by travsformation
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@travsformationΒ my own experience is that its not as good in terms of deceleration. Have to really commit to it and sink my heels down to get the same effect. E-braking (where you flick the wheel in front of you quickly while leaning back hard) does not feel quite right compared to previous versions. Was wondering if I have gotten rusty in lockdown and was not committing to the maneuver enough.

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6 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

@travsformationΒ my own experience is that its not as good in terms of deceleration. Have to really commit to it and sink my heels down to get the same effect. E-braking (where you flick the wheel in front of you quickly while leaning back hard) does not feel quite right compared to previous versions. Was wondering if I have gotten rusty in lockdown and was not committing to the maneuver enough.

Thanks! I initially thought braking felt marginally better, but might have been a similar thing where lockdown and no riding played a part. Now that I'm on 1.05, the braking is excellent and all other FWs seem to pale in comparison. Should do a side-by-side comparison between 1.07 and 2.02, since everyone else seem to be reporting worse deceleration

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