Firmware 2.02 for KS16X

[travsformation]

The KS SoftTuner app is offering firmware 2.02 for upgrade (shifting from the prior 1.0.8 release, which is no longer available; the release order is now 1.0.7 >> 2.02). This is possibly to unify FW naming among wheels, as the same version is being offered for other KS wheels as well. I'm keeping this thread wheel-specific for in case there are any differences between how it affects different wheels.

This firmware should be considered a beta version, as it comes with no release notes, only the word "apptest".

 

If a FW version's release notes  only list apptest, said version is a beta, so install and use at your own risk. That doesn't mean to say it's unsafe, but it isn't considered a stable release. I therefore do not encourage most users to upgrade until experienced users who are familiar with the feel and idiosyncrasies of the current release have tried it out first. Remember also that there's always a risk of bricking your wheel during a firmware upgrade, so I'd recommend waiting until others who have access to recovery tools have tried it out first.

Having said that, I'm going to upgrade now and will report back as soon as I've tested it. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

Upgrade completed successfully:

 

 

Calibrated the wheel with no issues (an important step to do after any FW upgrade/downgrade), so far the only changes I've noticed is that I can now change pedal tilt (tested, it works with KS SoftTuner, the KS app for Android and EUC World) and wheel automatic power-off time (I couldn't find the latter option in SoftTuner)

 

 

 

Am out for a ride to the pharmacy to see if there are any noticeable changes in behavior 

Edited April 28, 2020 by travsformation

[RetroThruster]

I'm dumb, what is pedal tilt?  Is it the same as calibration?

Edited April 28, 2020 by RetroThruster

[travsformation]

Just got back from a 15 km ride and I can't say I noticed any differences compared to 1.0.7. Acceleration felt the same, braking....might have been a bit better? Hard to say, I've hardly ridden since the hard lockdown started more than 6 weeks ago, but nothing that popped right up as in "Wow, that sure changed!" (as in the 18(X)L's upgrade to 2.X)

Battery was at 60%, maybe there are are differences in speed throttling? Will have to do more testing 

Edited April 28, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

46 minutes ago, RetroThruster said:

I'm dumb, what is pedal tilt?  Is it the same as calibration?

Calibration is for the wheel's gyroscope: it's done with the wheel completely level so the wheel knows what flat is supposed to be like and can properly detect lateral and front/backward tilt to keep you upright, properly respond to your input, know when you're turning or have fallen and needs to cut off the power, etc.

Pedal tilt is whether you want the pedals completely flat, or slightly tilted forward or backward. Some people prefer it tilted forward because it requires less effort to accelerate, and some heavy offroaders like them tilted slightly backward because it helps to keep your feet from slipping forward while accelerating on bumpy roads. It's a matter of personal preference--playing around with it to see what you're most comfortable with. It could even be changed for specific stretches of a tour: flat (0º) or slightly tilted forward (1-2º) for flat bits, then tilt it them back (-5º, for instance) to tackle a steep downhill section. 

I think @seage is going to be pleased with this update, which also applies to the 18XL  

P.S. That doesn't mean I'm encouraging anyone to upgrade quite yet

Edited April 28, 2020 by travsformation

[seage]

21 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I think @seage is going to be pleased with this update, which also applies to the 18XL  

I saw the update this morning! Ayyy!! Im SO hype, haha. Going to wait on their official release (instead of using the engineer app) so I don't brick my wheel, lmao. But im so ready! This is really great because i like a backwards tilt for offroad (so i dont tear my toes off on a root) and a forward tilt for the road. Now i can literally do it on the fly, accurately! Also, if they're allowing this, that means that they've managed to get rid of that insaaane backwards and forwards tilt (correction) you got when you added even 1 degree of tilt in your initial calibration. 

[.....]

INteresting.. I LOVE the 2.0 fw for my 18L. Im not sure which I'd rather, load a new unproven firmware from Kingsong (while the current works great), or play Russian Roulette? I think I'll wait until someone else rolls the dice on this for a while. Updating to 2.0 brand new was almost too much excitement for one year already. Being able to adjust pedal tilt sounds cool, but what is the advantage? If you tilt forward, won't that undermine braking or vice versa? Perhaps loading in a 1degree tilt would be beneficial and you'd only have to flip the wheel around, to enjoy it for downhill? I dunno, I'll excitedly wait for the reports to come in and an "all clear" from Seba. Good stuff either way! Glad to see that Kingsong is still hard at work.

Edited April 28, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[johnyz89]

You can adjust pedals tilt on 18(X)L on 2.00 firmware, only thing you need is new app.

[Sertified]

Where can I find the soft tuner app for Android? 

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, seage said:

Going to wait on their official release (instead of using the engineer app) so I don't brick my wheel, lmao.

Wise move 

4 hours ago, seage said:

This is really great because i like a backwards tilt for offroad (so i dont tear my toes off on a root) and a forward tilt for the road. Now i can literally do it on the fly, accurately! Also, if they're allowing this, that means that they've managed to get rid of that insaaane backwards and forwards tilt (correction) you got when you added even 1 degree of tilt in your initial calibration. 

I've always been perfectly fine with zero tilt, but being able to adjust it on the fly like this, with EUC World, is a game-changer. Just think, now you can re-calibrate with your wheel level and get accurate, on-demand tilt without a pendulum effect! (But who knows, maybe it'll take away part of the thrill) 

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

INteresting.. I LOVE the 2.0 fw for my 18L. Im not sure which I'd rather, load a new unproven firmware from Kingsong (while the current works great), or play Russian Roulette? I think I'll wait until someone else rolls the dice on this for a while. Updating to 2.0 brand new was almost too much excitement for one year already. Being able to adjust pedal tilt sounds cool, but what is the advantage? If you tilt forward, won't that undermine braking or vice versa? Perhaps loading in a 1degree tilt would be beneficial and you'd only have to flip the wheel around, to enjoy it for downhill? I dunno, I'll excitedly wait for the reports to come in and an "all clear" from Seba. Good stuff either way! Glad to see that Kingsong is still hard at work.

There's always a risk involved involved in firmwaer updates, even stable ones... 

I haven't tried this upgrade on the 18XL yet, but from what I hear, there are no apparent changes in wheel behavior, just the pedal tilt (although I'm looking forward to seeing whether they've corrected wonky headlight bugs...). I haven't played much with pedal tilt (a little on my V8, looks like KS is trying to catch up with IM in every way), but was never too fond of forward tilt. It makes accelerating effortless (forward weight distribution = permanent acceleration unless you lean back), which some people enjoy on flat terrain/uphill, but I don't like the effect on braking (requires more effort) and turning---although the latter might just be me, I don't feel comfortable with the forward tilt when turning, it brings pedal dip to mind and makes me feel unsafe; I prefer a touch of backward tilt, I feel more confident in curves and more glued to the pedals in that I don't feel like my feet are going to slip forward on bumpy terrain. But that's the beauty of it is that you can adjust on the fly...

Is it worth upgrading? At this point, until official release, probably not, especially if you're perfectly content with your wheel as is. If it ain't broke....

If I were in your situation I'd wait 'til it's official, should you want to upgrade your firmwaer. And if you're not comfortable with KS's app, I hear EUC World offers a fool-proof FW upgrade process (and Premium users can downgrade if they don't like the new FW) 

Edited April 29, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, johnyz89 said:

You can adjust pedals tilt on 18(X)L on 2.00 firmware, only thing you need is new app.

Unfortunately, you can't. The option is there, the app lets you move the slider but it has not effect...

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, Sertified said:

Where can I find the soft tuner app for Android? 

The KS SoftTuner app available to iOS users is actually KS's engineer app, which was not meant for regular users, but is now being made available to iOS users due to the lack of a normal KS app on the App Store. This is a temporary measure until a definitive KS app is released. The SoftTuner app isn't available for download on Android. Users who have it have mostly received it from their distributors to solve FW issues, revert to previous FWs, etc. 

[WI_Hedgehog]

44 minutes ago, travsformation said:

There's always a risk involved involved in firmwaer updates, even stable ones... 

Still better than Gotway's... 

[travsformation]

Created a separate thread for this same FW version for the 18L & 18XL; same FW nomenclature but different wheels, so not necessarily the same FW (especially considering that the legacy 2000W versions don't have the same motor, speed throttling, etc.)
 

 

[phatmike]

12 km around the block (11 times!). No difference in the wheel behavior. The tilting option is very nice

[Lindsey]

I have 18xl king song.King Song seems to be doing too much firmware.
I understand how you want to deliver a better version (upgrade, process) to your customers,....but as an experienced firmware upgrade, it's frankly scary. 

[travsformation]

Did some off-roading yesterday and keep getting the impression that braking is a bit better. Torque delivery on slow-speed hill-climbs also feels a little smoother and more dependable/effortless, but if this is the case and not a result of forgetting what the wheel felt like (lockdown, etc.), it's subtle, as in to be sure, I'd have to go for a ride, downgrade to 1.0.7 on the spot and keep riding....which regardless of whether I do it or not, is an indicator of how subtle the change is...

[Mike Sacristan]

13 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Did some off-roading yesterday and keep getting the impression that braking is a bit better. Torque delivery on slow-speed hill-climbs also feels a little smoother and more dependable/effortless, but if this is the case and not a result of forgetting what the wheel felt like (lockdown, etc.), it's subtle, as in to be sure, I'd have to go for a ride, downgrade to 1.0.7 on the spot and keep riding....which regardless of whether I do it or not, is an indicator of how subtle the change is...

Downgrade to 1.05! 

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Downgrade to 1.05! 

I was actually about to give it a try (at @DjPanJan's recommendation), but then 2.02 came out so I decided to give it a try so I could provide some feedback.

I never run down my battery too much, but decided to take it for a spin at 30% battery (EUC World, standard battery algorithm) to test the speed throttling. Got home on 1% battery 

I'd never run it down this much before so I don't know how it compares with previous FWs, so I'll post the numbers so the rest of you can judge whether there's a difference (the red bar with black stripes indicates the speed limit being conveyed by the wheel's FW):

 

• 42 km/h @ 29% battery 
• 39 km/h @ 22% battery 
• 37 km/h @ 13% battery
• 35 km/h @ 7% battery
• 34 km/h @ 4% battery 
• 31 km/h @ 2% battery
• 32 km/h @ 1% battery (wheel static, 0A current)

Some of the variations are attributable to differing current levels, I imagine. Overall though, these throttling figures are fantastic for the use I give the wheel: max. speed doesn't drop below 40 km/h until 22% battery, and the sub-10% battery figures look pretty damn good too me too. I guess it depends on everyone's usage, but I can't envision too many riders squeezing that last 5% out of the battery very often, and should they find themselves in that situation, I'm not too sure top speed would be their main concern (as opposed to walking the last few miles...) 

So is this a departure from FW 1.0.7? I haven't put too many kms on this wheel, so I haven't dropped below 50% very often and have been offroad when I have, so I was hardly doing 40 km/h+ when I did...

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Looks identical to me with 1.0.7 and my speed limits was under more load. 

 

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, buell47 said:

Looks identical to me with 1.0.7 and my speed limits was under more load. 

In that case, changes seem to be simply in the pedal tilt department (stolen Inmotion tech) 

I don't understand the fuss (upon release) about the 16X's speed throttling. 39 km/h at 22% battery is very respectable: almost 80% of its battery capacity it can be ridden at 40 km/h or more. Considering the range this thing gets (if you don't hotdog it too much), unless you're a speed daemon who often forgets to top off, I think those figures are pretty good. Or was this not the case with earlier FWs?

I reckon I should give 1.0.5 a try... @DjPanJan, @Mike Sacristan what kind of speed throttling numbers are you getting on 1.0.5?

[DjPanJan]

6 minutes ago, travsformation said:

 

I reckon I should give 1.0.5 a try... @DjPanJan, @Mike Sacristan what kind of speed throttling numbers are you getting on 1.0.5?

I am limited 43 tiltback 40 km/h deacelerate alarm. Im 260+ lbs/119kg geared. Fine si 45km/h tilt 43 km decelerate. Pedals Hard is best(universal). Medium for asphalt ride 35+ and hillclimb (i use eucworld only). 1.05 if you charging brake led blinking nonstop.

1.07 medium pedal  is 1.05 hard.

I wouldn't take down the 1.05 hype I've been using 1.05 since the beginning it was my FW from production. With the 1.4 motherboard, most KS16Xs produced after 2019.11.25 have a 1.5 motherboard and were delivered with a FW of 1.07. People's experiences on the forum differed when changing another newer 1.5 motherboard to the same firmware. I want these facts to be heard here.
My 16X will come back 5.5.2020 with a new 1.5 board (for 1.4) with warranty repairs so I'll be able to compare and I'll let you know.
Once 2.02 is official with patch notes, if they added features or improved maneuverability, I'll probably move on because changing the tilt of the pedals is practical, and I use it for inmotion as well.

 Often check on 1.05 pedlal mode i dont know why sometime is set back to soft (default) maybee after charging or calibration im not sure what trigers this automatic change.Maybee eucworld triger this when i updating beta versions just check before ride.  ( i use only eucworld i no have any kongsong app in phone actualy)

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

6 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

People's experiences on the forum differed when changing another newer 1.5 motherboard to the same firmware. I want these facts to be heard here.
My 16X will come back 5.5.2020 with a new 1.5 board (for 1.4) with warranty repairs so I'll be able to compare and I'll let you know.

I'm curious. With me, it was a difference like day and night with the same firmware 1.0.7. If that's not the case with you, I've done 1,200 km on a faulty board since I bought it. 

[travsformation]

9 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

I am limited 43 tiltback 40 km/h deacelerate alarm. Im 260+ lbs/119kg geared. Fine si 45km/h tilt 43 km decelerate. Pedals Hard is best(universal). Medium for asphalt ride 35+ and hillclimb (i use eucworld only). 1.05 if you charging brake led blinking nonstop.

1.07 medium pedal  is 1.05 hard.

I wouldn't take down the 1.05 hype I've been using 1.05 since the beginning it was my FW from production. With the 1.4 motherboard, most KS16Xs produced after 2019.11.25 have a 1.5 motherboard and were delivered with a FW of 1.07. People's experiences on the forum differed when changing another newer 1.5 motherboard to the same firmware. I want these facts to be heard here.
My 16X will come back 5.5.2020 with a new 1.5 board (for 1.4) with warranty repairs so I'll be able to compare and I'll let you know.
Once 2.02 is official with patch notes, if they added features or improved maneuverability, I'll probably move on because changing the tilt of the pedals is practical, and I use it for inmotion as well.

 Often check on 1.05 pedlal mode i dont know why sometime is set back to soft (default) maybee after charging or calibration im not sure what trigers this automatic change.Maybee eucworld triger this when i updating beta versions just check before ride.  ( i use only eucworld i no have any kongsong app in phone actualy)

Thanks for the info. Very good point on the relationship between FW and hardware (motherboard). 

Mine's a 2nd batch, delivered in January 2019. I'm pretty sure it came with with 1.0.7 because I've never tried 1.0.5. While I was waiting for the 16X, KS pushed the 2.0 upgrade for the 18XL, which completely transformed the wheel; aside from making the wait much easier, when I received the 16X the power delivery and pedal stiffness felt similar and the overall riding feel was equally smooth and polished, so I never felt much of an urge to downgrade to 1.0.5.

The torque on the 16X is absolutely fantastic and I've never really felt the need for more (I'm not sure I'd even use it if I had it, TBH), and I have the general feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) that 1.0.7 is a safer FW, so as they say...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My main motivation for downgrading to 1.0.5 would be braking, but not if it's at the expense of safety. I'm not a speed daemon or a particularly aggressive rider and I never accelerate aggressively when above 40 km/h (which is my max. cruising speed but above my average), so 1.0.5 probably doesn't involve any extra risks for me (if @Mike Sacristan hasn't face-planted, I don't think I have anything to worry about) 

But perhaps there are other under-the-hood changes (power delivery, safety margin, pedal stiffness, pedal dipping, overall riding dynamics, etc) that are worth taking into account; KS has been doing a good job at refining their FW lately, it's an odd time for me to consider downgrading (and to sidetrack my own thread devoted to upgrading from 1.0.7 to 2.02)  

I'm still tempted to try it, but the pedal hardness is a bit of a turnoff, I like my pedals as hard as I can get them! (I know, I know...buy a Gotway then....)