New Ex-Gotway wheel "Veteran"

[Lukasz]

We may see soon new wheel  on the market called "Veteran" apparently based on the Gotway - there are some news that people previously working for Gotway wants to enter the market with interesting wheel which seems to be based on  MSX  construction in "Mad Max" style.  

• 20" (bigger rim and tire than in MSX
• 3200wh battery
• 100V
• stronger motor than in MSX but no data known so far
• stronger chassis with kind of external pipe protector
• longer pedals
• powerful front and back lights
• some kind of display on the top of the wheel 
• central mounted handle

I found no carrying handle (to carry the wheel up the stairs for example) visible - maybe the trolley handle will have ability to unlock only slightly. 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Lukasz

[mrelwood]

The roll cage forms a carrying handle at either end of the wheel. If the wheel will weigh as much as I think it will, a single carrying handle wouldn’t be very useful anyway.

A wild thought just entered my mind: What if this is the rumored 20” GotWay that was supposed to come out in May, and due to the market pressure created by the upcoming KS and IM suspension wheels, GotWay made new plans and ends up revealing a 18x3” wheel with suspension after all! The main designer for the 20” GW jumped ship and founded Veteran to launch the product.

A 20” GW wheel would be doomed to sell just a fraction of a 18x3”, no matter how perfect the wheel was, and no matter what features it had. Changing plans to make a 18” wheel would definitely make a lot of sense right now! GW will always sell a lot of wheels by the top speed alone, so even if the suspension performance would fall way short from the competition, numerous customers would switch from their V11 and S18 purchasing plans to a 18x3” GW with suspension. To a 20” GW though, not anywhere near as many.

 Oh this is exciting! Despite already having paid the deposit for the V11 pre-order.  Which is exciting as well!

Edited April 28, 2020 by mrelwood

[Chriull]

FYI:

 

[xorbe]

The ultimate last mile commuter solution!

[travsformation]

16 hours ago, xorbe said:

The ultimate last mile commuter solution!

Last 100-mile solution 

[RockyTop]

I love it just as much as I hate it!! ..... and that is a lot! I like the exterior roll cage except that the plastic wraps around it!!. Kinda defeats  the purpose. A little more thought into visual flow would have helped. 

[Will R]

@Lucasz any idea of when we may see more about this wheel? Is this another pulse glider or will we see some pictures and maybe a price this sometime in the summer?

[Meserias]

new info...

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Meserias

[WaveCut]

[Meserias]

WaveCut: it's Instagram account or where is this content... ?

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Meserias

[Qarky]

when this wheel drops so will my bank acct

[WaveCut]

On 5/26/2020 at 2:01 PM, Meserias said:

WaveCut: it's Instagram account or where is this content... ?

Found on Telegram, but i believe that the origin is the WeChat or Weibo

[RetroThruster]

Hmm, sort of hard to tell but it doesn't look like he's even clamping down with his knees to tilt it forward, interesting...

Edited May 27, 2020 by RetroThruster

[yourtoys7]

competition is always good, gotway we'll have to step up or potentially drop price, 

[Michael Tucker]

I was excited to hear of this new wheel, but these videos are quit uninspiring. Competition is great, I agree, but with the design of the V11 and S18 and their new performance capabilities, this thing looks boring and has the boring stats to go along with it. I could forgive its mediocre looks for killer performance, like all Gotway wheels.

18650 is now passé due to the voltage sag in fast mount riding or just fast riding in-general. That battery weight is wild and really shapes the riding style and type of use. It's so heavy that pairing it with a 20" wheel is silly when a 22" or even 24" wheel would allow much more epic distance and comfortable journeys. The one thing I am holding out for is rider reviews. The Nikola, on paper was also a silly design, huge and heavy for a 16" or 17" wheel, but the tire and firmware choice Gotway made was brilliant and made for an incredible experience. So hopefully this Veteran Sherman has killer firmware that can't be seen in promo videos or spec sheets.

[koto]

18 hours ago, yourtoys7 said:

competition is always good, gotway we'll have to step up or potentially drop price, 

Competition is not *always* good for us. It may depend on what type of user you are. If most people like beautiful wheels, speakers, funny gadgets and so on.. but you are not this kind of users, unfortunately for you the manufacturers will put these things standard on their products and you will pay it even if you will never use it. Sometime it is welcome that some manufacturers stick on the main features. I'm especially focused on range right now so I'm interested in the Veteran wheel. But if 3000Wh wheels become a standard in few years and if it is enough for my needs (I think so) perhaps I will have another opinion. Anyway, the main thing for us is to have something like a new wheels profile  

Edited May 29, 2020 by koto

[EMA]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:55 AM, Lukasz said:

We may see soon new wheel  on the market called "Veteran" apparently based on the Gotway - there are some news that people previously working for Gotway wants to enter the market with interesting wheel which seems to be based on  MSX  construction in "Mad Max" style.  

• 20" (bigger rim and tire than in MSX
• 3200wh battery
• 100V
• stronger motor than in MSX but no data known so far
• stronger chassis with kind of external pipe protector
• longer pedals
• powerful front and back lights
• some kind of display on the top of the wheel 
• central mounted handle

I found no carrying handle (to carry the wheel up the stairs for example) visible - maybe the trolley handle will have ability to unlock only slightly. 

 

i think it's supposed to be lifted with the front or rear bar, i don't think the central trolley could survive to 32kg

[Will R]

@Michael Tucker is the use of 18650s really that much of a deal-breaker? Doesn't the 100v MSX use them, while still retaining the title of fastest stock wheel?

[Chriull]

21 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

18650 is now passé due to the voltage sag in fast mount riding or just fast riding in-general. That battery weight is wild and really shapes the riding style and type of use. It's so heavy that pairing it with a 20" wheel is silly when a 22" or even 24" wheel would allow much more epic distance and comfortable journeys. The one thing I am holding out for is rider reviews. The Nikola, on paper was also a silly design, huge and heavy for a 16" or 17" wheel, but the tire and firmware choice Gotway made was brilliant and made for an incredible experience. So hopefully this Veteran Sherman has killer firmware that can't be seen in promo videos or spec sheets.

 

2 hours ago, Will R said:

@Michael Tucker is the use of 18650s really that much of a deal-breaker? Doesn't the 100v MSX use them, while still retaining the title of fastest stock wheel?

If one compares LG INR 21700 M50T (https://www.akkuteile.de/lithium-ionen-akkus/21700/lg-chem-inr21700-m50t-5000mah-3-6-3-7v-lithium-ionen-akku_100660_2535, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JHFoAIexketoOInWRFahl89vgbPXum7t/view?usp=sharing) and LG INR 18650 MJ1 (https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/Specification INR18650MJ1 22.08.2014.pdf) one gets for 

18650: 1,36 cm³/Wh and 3,8 g/Wh

21700: 1,41 cm³/Wh and 3,8 g/Wh

So weight wise they are identical (21700: 70g/5000mAh == 18650: 49g/3500mAh). The 21700 are just slightly bigger per Wh - but just ~3.6%. Package "restrictions", since always a multiple of 24 cells have to be used should be the only/main design decission.

 

So if one compares a 3200Wh battery pack(1):

18650 (LG INR 18650 MJ1 - no idea which cells are used in the Veteran....):

24s10p configuration, 3053,4 Wh, 11.76 kg, 4,15 l (Volumina of just the cells - air gaps not regarded), rated max continous discharge current 100 A, internal Resistance: 96 mOhm

21700 (LG INR 21700 M50T):

24s7p configuration, 3049,2 Wh, 11,76 kg, 4.3l (Volumina of just the cells - air gaps not regarded), rated max continous discharge current 51 A, internal Resistance: 85,7 mOhm

I do not see any too big (dis)advantages for any solution.

The 21700 pack is slightly bigger. 

The 18650 packs internal resistance is slightly higher as for the 21700 pack. 

Main difference is the nominal maximum specified continous discharge current is much lower as for the 18650 - about 1/2. But this should be of no real problem - with an continous battery current of 51A at 100V every mosfet and all the motor wires will be thermally annihilated anyways...

And with 21700 one would have an odd configuration - one 24 pack would have to be split on the left and right side for balancing, or be put on the top. Makes it a bit more complicated to handle this designwise as the 10p configuration with 18650.

So i do not see any reasons for the points @Michael Tucker brought up (edit: in regard to 18650 vs 21700) - am i missing something? Hope i have no faults in my calculation.

(1) I took the next lower value to 3200Wh, as the 24s10p 18650 and the 24s7p 21700 have quite equal capacitances - the next higher configuration would be much more different (3359Wh vs. 3485Wh). 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Chriull

[Michael Tucker]

9 hours ago, Will R said:

@Michael Tucker is the use of 18650s really that much of a deal-breaker? Doesn't the 100v MSX use them, while still retaining the title of fastest stock wheel?

The issue is for how long can an 18650 keep up high current draw. @Afeez Kay toured the Gotway factor and spoke with the owner (Mr. Lim) and he showed the difference in internal resistance between 18650 and 21700. The 21700 cell was almost half the Ohms. The high starting resistance generates heat , which raises the resistance even more and the heat loss shows as inefficiency (faster loss of power (wattage) over the time operating). The 21700 has not only a bigger cell density in its package for more watt-hour, but also less internal resistance which stays cooler which keeps resistance from rising and will keep the voltage higher during high speed operation (a requirement for fast speed). The 21700 cell is not ground-breaking, but a welcome improvement!

[Michael Tucker]

8 hours ago, Chriull said:

 

So i do not see any reasons for the points @Michael Tucker brought up (edit: in regard to 18650 vs 21700) - am i missing something? Hope i have no faults in my calculation.

I'm no expert in batteries, or electrical engineering, I'm only speaking from experience riding fast on paved mountain roads above 30mph with MSX 84V, Monster 100V, Nikola 100V. I ride watching my telemetry using the manufacturer apps, Wheelog, and EUC World, and direct wheel display on Nikola. Voltage sag is very real and important.

For this 18650 vs 21700 discussion I can only mix my results with others on this forum and Youtube, and the owner of Gotway (Mr. Lim) who choose 21700 for all new and future 100V wheels and showed on video the difference in resistance between the cells. For high-current draw applications that Gotway uses (and reported new high torque high speed Inmotion V11and Kingsong S18 application) 21700 is the chosen cell NOT 18650.

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

For this 18650 vs 21700 discussion I can only mix my results with others on this forum and Youtube, and the owner of Gotway (Mr. Lim) who choose 21700 for all new and future 100V wheels and showed on video the difference in resistance between the cells.

Yes, there is a difference. But not too much if one looks at battery pack configurations with same capacity.

But there are also not tonmuch specific details of the used 21700 cells and their datasheets known by now.

2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

For high-current draw applications that Gotway uses (and reported new high torque high speed Inmotion V11and Kingsong S18 application) 21700 is the chosen cell NOT 18650.

V11 and S18 are "low capacity" wheels. This topic is about a 3200Wh wheel! That means 10 18650 cells in parallel - no matter which motor is driven by this the cells will be bored! 

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

The issue is for how long can an 18650 keep up high current draw. @Afeez Kay toured the Gotway factor and spoke with the owner (Mr. Lim) and he showed the difference in internal resistance between 18650 and 21700. The 21700 cell was almost half the Ohms. The high starting resistance generates heat , which raises the resistance even more and the heat loss shows as inefficiency (faster loss of power (wattage) over the time operating).

As written above that does not in any way concern the wheel discussed in this topic.

And from all the datasheets i've seen till now this half internal resistance sounds quite plausible. But one has to compare same capacity battery packs, not single cells!  So the 5Ah 21750 with half the resistance to a 3.5Ah 18650. The 18650 pack will by this have more cells in parallel so the overall internal resistance will be not as different anymore.

3 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

The 21700 has not only a bigger cell density in its package for more watt-hour,

Density stays about the same. That's marketing talk.

[Chriull]

14 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

For this 18650 vs 21700 discussion I can only mix my results with others on this forum and Youtube, and the owner of Gotway (Mr. Lim) who choose 21700 for all new and future 100V wheels and showed on video the difference in resistance between the cells. For high-current draw applications that Gotway uses (and reported new high torque high speed Inmotion V11and Kingsong S18 application) 21700 is the chosen cell NOT 18650.

As i just stumbled about @EcoDrift's statement "The current of 15A gives a very noticeable voltage drop, so I would not say that the elements are any better than the 18650. Also in the network there is an opinion that with a long load the elements begin to heat up very much. But even if this is so, then for a unicycle this is not a problem, a long peak load is excluded." in https://ecodrift.ru/2019/12/02/gotway-nikola-na-elementah-21700-razbiraem/ there is at least on big player in the EUC business who does not share the opinion of 21700 beeing superior!

[Gustesta]