"Veteran" New brand of high performance EUC's

[Jon Stern]

8 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Everyone knows the early adopters are beta testers, it goes for virtually every new EUC that comes to market.  However, making kneejerk decisions based on an unrealistic use case that fundamentally change the wheel are something that is unacceptable.  Every PEV has multiple failure points, to be honest, on EUCs the biggest one is the control board.  However, some common sense and safeguarding can significantly reduce said risks by educating the end user (don't ride too long in very hot weather, don't overtorque the wheel if you're particularly heavy, etc.)

I get that you're concerned about knee-jerk reactions causing manufacturers to change EUCs in a way that negatively impacts the user experience. I'm not calling for that.

I'm calling for a long-term effort to eliminate controller boards frying for generations of EUCs down the road.

I'm an engineer, so I know what kind of long term approaches are required here.

When I talk about failure points, I'm thinking at a much finer granularity than "the control board". The specific failure points (electrical components) need to be identified and some of them eliminated, until they get to the point where there's just one (ideally).

Edited July 14, 2020 by Jon Stern

[Shield]

I'd prefer the Sherman to be the master of speed rather than the master of power or even worse master of neither. 

[HippoPig]

4 minutes ago, Shield said:

I'd prefer the Sherman to be the master of speed rather than the master of power or even worse master of neither. 

To be honest I’m perfectly happy with how my MSX 84v performs on hills etc.

 

I don’t think it’s going to be any worse than that in the real world. It doesn’t feel like it.

[jimjam.nyc]

18 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Then Jason needs to push Veteran for a fat-man friendly torque version of the Sherman, like I said earlier, not change the wheel as designed.  I know plenty of NYC riders pre-ordered this wheel from eWheels, and I'm sure he'd hate to lose those. 

 I am sure nobody wants to lose pre-orders at all.. So therefore it may be worth it to try and solve some issues.. Nobody knows if it will sacrifice what the NYC crew likes about this wheel. Its just speculation at this point. 

what would be the difference if they fixed some of this stuff, and expected the people wanting more top-speed to buy a "extra speed" model.. Vs the heavier people having to buy a "fat" model as you put it? The only difference i see.. is you get what you wanted.. vs someone else.. 

I am not sure this wheel was only made for the NYC riding crew.. That maybe your group of people who pre-ordered it... but there is a possibility that there is a large number of pre-orders from other places in the country/world that would like some things a certain way too.. It is not so simple sometimes. 

All this being said.. Maybe they are testing a different board in the wheel to create a SKU with some different characteristics.. Nobody said they were changing anything.. They just said a new board was being sent out to test some different things.. 

 

 

[DjPanJan]

I watch @Marty Backe video premiere full lenght great content this is what i think about:

Please no alibi excuses it doesn't matter that it's EUC on top speed so what! So he has to beep overheat and stop that's all this test does.

This pre-production piece failed and failed to protect it is a pure fail. It is not a shame not to go out this overheat hill but to cover the EUC before it bakes.

So with false alibi pseudo arguments you won't achieve anything, an intensive implementation of overheat protection is simply necessary.

Inmotion V10F will overload if overloaded please get out and will force you to stop. Even if Sherman had to do this better than burn out!

I fully take into account that it is a pre-production piece and it may be a unique case.

[Ben Kim]

3 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

 I am sure nobody wants to lose pre-orders at all.. So therefore it may be worth it to try and solve some issues.. Nobody knows if it will sacrifice what the NYC crew likes about this wheel. Its just speculation at this point. 

what would be the difference if they fixed some of this stuff, and expected the people wanting more top-speed to buy a "extra speed" model.. Vs the heavier people having to buy a "fat" model as you put it? The only difference i see.. is you get what you wanted.. vs someone else.. 

I am not sure this wheel was only made for the NYC riding crew.. That maybe your group of people who pre-ordered it... but there is a possibility that there is a large number of pre-orders from other places in the country/world that would like some things a certain way too.. It is not so simple sometimes. 

All this being said.. Maybe they are testing a different board in the wheel to create a SKU with some different characteristics.. Nobody said they were changing anything.. They just said a new board was being sent out to test some different things.. 

 

 

That's why there is choice in the EUC market.  By trying to appease everyone, you appease nobody which is an even worse result.  

Edited July 14, 2020 by Ben Kim

[jimjam.nyc]

10 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

That's why there is choice in the EUC market.  By trying to appease everyone, you appease nobody which is an even worse result.  

I don't disagree.. But i can't argue against trying to fix possible issues in pre-production. 

This wasn't the first stress test the wheel sort of failed.. I use the word failed not as meaning a total failure.. but it would be bad if veteran didnt look to try and avoid these things happening on production wheels.. Weather it be on a hill somewhere.. or on the busy streets of NY hitting a pothole. 

 

[FreeRide]

 

[AtlasP]

4 hours ago, eve said:

I dont care if climbs a steep hill or not. I just want it to start beeping/tilt back instead of blowing up.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

You're correct that the Sherman isn't optimized for this kind of high torque condition. The question should be, what happens to the wheel when ridden outside its design envelope?

These posts absolutely nail it.

The issue isn't that it "didn't make it" or "cut out", the issue is that it simultaneously 1) gave no alarms/warnings and 2) fscking fried!

There should be quite a decent margin between "alarm/warning" and "close enough to combustion", and you shouldn't be *able* to get to the latter without first crossing/encountering the former. (Not with the out of the box configuration, unless the user themself chose to turn off the alarms which is then on them.)

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by AtlasP

[Boogieman]

I am relly looking forward to Sherman v2 2021.
But for sure there are things to fix on a 3K € wheel, a few MUSTS:
- No solder blobs or rust in motor internals

Source: https://ecodrift.ru/2020/07/05/razbiraem-veteran-sherman-iz-pervoj-postavki-mnogo-udivitelnyh-otkrytij/

2. Wider pedals. they are even slimmer than the Tesla Pedals that are slim allready for "normal feet in EU / USA".

3. No frying boards - tiltback or decrease power if "fry limit" is close. Its not a wheel meant to die on doing 75km/h or fall of a cliff doing hills. That wont do any good to EUC community (or the user), At theese speeds its not common sense ONLY, there needs to be some kind of fail safe for the general people. If some Young crazy riders wanna ride the beep, go ahead, but dont hurt others in the process and dont say that the wheel is good enough when its not.

4. Better clearance (for tubing at least)

Wants:
4. No solid wired for hall sensors as this is a recipe for failure after x nr of vibrations (I know GW does have this too, but why copy a bad feature?)

5. Better insulation for motor cables (the good stuff with fibre glass as on the Tesla v.1.2 and other wheels too im sure

6. Separate the cables from factory - cable manage. How hard can it be

7. Properly sealed LCD (Speedy feet couldn't turn off wheel after going in  rain (as expected when capilary forces draws water into the LCD and button
Source: 

8. Add fastening points for shell in pedal hangers higher up by extending pedal hangers behind the trolley (to reduce stress on plastic chassis at a crash) as those GW mounting points around wheel axle isn't even enough for a comparingly light GW wheel. My19 Kg Tesla even have cracks here,

9. Probably forgot someting, but I hope they will sort above out at least for v2

Edited July 15, 2020 by Boogieman

[HippoPig]

Production internals for anyone interested.

 

will be doing more of a strip down later as my trolley handle is doing my head in

[travsformation]

20 hours ago, Chriull said:

Yeah - they even start burning at standstill

And I thought GWs burning up was an issue worth worrying about. Give me a modded GW over a Lambo any day of the week! (or give me the Lambo so I can sell it to buy EUCs with) 

[HippoPig]

Other side and a bad photo of the board.

[onizukagto]

On 7/15/2020 at 3:52 PM, HippoPig said:

Production internals for anyone interested.

 

will be doing more of a strip down later as my trolley handle is doing my head in

Hand on a minute, is that a fuse box in the top right corner? I remember seeing that on the pre-production version. 

Is that veterans solution to prevent board burn out? 

 

Can anyone verify this? 

Edited July 16, 2020 by onizukagto
Auto correct sucks

[Will R]

Yes it is a fuse. It was on the 1st batch model ecodrift tore down so I'm assuming it is found on all production wheels. As for preventing the melting issues, I'm assuming they will send one to @Marty Backe with his new boards if so. I know veteran have said to the group buy I'm in the new firmware will address this melting issue, so it will be interesting to wait and see what happens.

[Chriull]

3 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

Hand on a minute, is that a fuse box in the top right corner? I remember seeing that on the pre-production version. 

Is that veterans solution to prevent board burn out? 

 

Can anyone verify this? 

They have one fuse after the battery (presumably this box) as short circuit protection.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Will R said:

Yes it is a fuse. It was on the 1st batch model ecodrift tore down so I'm assuming it is found on all production wheels. As for preventing the melting issues, I'm assuming they will send one to @Marty Backe with his new boards if so. I know veteran have said to the group buy I'm in the new firmware will address this melting issue, so it will be interesting to wait and see what happens.

I just added some documentation in my Sherman thread that explains what Veteran has changed to fix the problem. A new board is on its way to me.

I doubt that I'll be receiving any kind of fuse for my wheel. I think that's more for protecting the battery than anything to do with protecting the control board.

[Marty Backe]

On 7/15/2020 at 12:52 AM, HippoPig said:

Production internals for anyone interested.

 

will be doing more of a strip down later as my trolley handle is doing my head in

Of course what you have is "one version" of the production wheel. They are making modifications based on mine and others failures.

Newer production wheels will have different firmware to prevent thermal runaway on the control board and the motor wires will have different insulation.

[HippoPig]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Of course what you have is "one version" of the production wheel. They are making modifications based on mine and others failures.

Newer production wheels will have different firmware to prevent thermal runaway on the control board and the motor wires will have different insulation.

Agreed - I just asked Afeez about the recommendation to alter the motor wire insulation and he hadn’t had any info to that end.

 

They’re intending to provide firmware updates right?

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, HippoPig said:

Agreed - I just asked Afeez about the recommendation to alter the motor wire insulation and he hadn’t had any info to that end.

 

They’re intending to provide firmware updates right?

If you buy a new control board I guess you'll get new firmware. Or potentially if you mail your control board to a dealer that has the ability to load new firmware, you can get an update.

[HippoPig]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If you buy a new control board I guess you'll get new firmware. Or potentially if you mail your control board to a dealer that has the ability to load new firmware, you can get an update.

I had heard they were going to do it via Bluetooth (a new video uploaded today - electric dreams I think) but this point does seem to keep going backward and forward.

[travsformation]

34 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Of course what you have is "one version" of the production wheel. They are making modifications based on mine and others failures.

Newer production wheels will have different firmware to prevent thermal runaway on the control board and the motor wires will have different insulation.

I don't mean to start a fire with this post, so guys, don't get too worked up about this, but this is something we really shouldn't be accepting at this point, from any manufacturer. The differences between prototypes and 1st-batch production wheels are often minor. To have a "1.0 production wheel" start shipping out, then a 1.01 production wheel a week later and a 1.02 version a week after that (hypothetical, but it happens) is ridiculous. How many wheels end up getting sold with issues that are addressed in later versions? At this rate we'll end up with 7 different variants of the same wheel in a month, each correcting only a single issue that was found after the last release... 

Chinese capitalism for ya....

MFs really need to change their approach: if they don't plan on doing extensive reliability testing in-house, testing by known riders/Youtubers should be a part of the pre-production testing process, and take place before mass-production even begins. 

Or maybe we need to change our approach as consumers. Except we can't because we're EUC junkies---and they know it! 

As much as I love EUCs, it's definitely a love-hate relationships with MFs...

[Marty Backe]

32 minutes ago, HippoPig said:

I had heard they were going to do it via Bluetooth (a new video uploaded today - electric dreams I think) but this point does seem to keep going backward and forward.

Yeah, I saw that. Language translation issues. I'm not convinced it'll be via an app (which doesn't exist and probably won't exist). "via bluetooth" refers to how they upgrade the firmware on the board with the "update hardware". The bluetooth module is removed from the board and the "updater" is plugged into the bluetooth connector.

This is how Gotway boards are re-flashed in the field. Only dealers have access to the "updater". I've personally witnessed the process.

[davinche]

1 hour ago, travsformation said:

I don't mean to start a fire with this post, so guys, don't get too worked up about this, but this is something we really shouldn't be accepting at this point, from any manufacturer. The differences between prototypes and 1st-batch production wheels are often minor. To have a "1.0 production wheel" start shipping out, then a 1.01 production wheel a week later and a 1.02 version a week after that (hypothetical, but it happens) is ridiculous. How many wheels end up getting sold with issues that are addressed in later versions? At this rate we'll end up with 7 different variants of the same wheel in a month, each correcting only a single issue that was found after the last release... 

Not just the EUC community: The 3D printing scene suffers from this as well. The 3D printing community is slightly better though since most of the 3D printers run off of some variant of open source firmware. EUC however... we're locked into the closed system.

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, davinche said:

The 3D printing community is slightly better though since most of the 3D printers run off of some variant of open source firmware. 

 

Well that, and because your 3d printer is less likely to burn your house down and/or drop you on your face while going 35 mph. ;-p

Edited July 16, 2020 by AtlasP