"Veteran" New brand of high performance EUC's

[onizukagto]

6 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Riding the beeps, looking down filming the display, and no protection!

Potential Darwin Award winner there.

Very true,
But at least we have video proof of the potential top speed over head of the veteran. 

I personally, thank him for his sacrifice. 

[onizukagto]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hkeuc/permalink/3086043594785047/

wow. the veteran must be shipping them out already, finding more videos on facebook.

[Mango]

They got shipped out to customers last week. Mine is coming by boat so another few weeks. This is the longest wait ever I have experienced. 

[Ben Kim]

2 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

Riding the beeps, looking down filming the display, and no protection!

Potential Darwin Award winner there.

this wheel is the first one where you can push 40, hold it and not worry about cutout. The headroom it has to the former speed king MSX 100V is quite significant. 

[Jon Stern]

44 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

this wheel is the first one where you can push 40, hold it and not worry about cutout. The headroom it has to the former speed king MSX 100V is quite significant. 

That doesn't prevent potholes, distracted drivers, early firmware bugs, glue on MOSFETs, cold solder joints, or a multitude of other potential failure modes. These wheels don't even go through robust reliability testing before production (and robust reliability testing isn't just alpha testing, it includes highly accelerated life testing).

Even if the risk is low, there's a real potential at these speeds to end up with permanent brain damage. People don't intuitively understand that the kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity.

[Ben Kim]

1 minute ago, Jon Stern said:

That doesn't prevent potholes, distracted drivers, early firmware bugs, glue on MOSFETs, cold solder joints, or a multitude of other potential failure modes. These wheels don't even go through robust reliability testing before production (and robust reliability testing isn't just alpha testing, it includes highly accelerated life testing).

Even if the risk is low, there's a real potential at these speeds to end up with permanent brain damage. People don't intuitively understand that the kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity.

I’ve cut out at 42 mph, I’m very well aware of the risks getting into high speed crashes. 

This wheel is merely a tool to accomplish one’s riding goals, the actual decision-making is up to the owner. 

[Mango]

That’s true. A doubling in speed requires quadrupling of braking distance. For example at 30km/h with a stopping distance of 6 metres, doubling speed to 60km/h will need a stopping distance of 24 metres! Not many riders know this.

 

When I get my Veteran, and if I think I will be going faster than 40km/h I will definitely be wearing full motorcycle gear, ie cowhide leather motorcycle jacket, gloves, helmets and kevlar riding pants geared for motorcycle use.

[Jon Stern]

5 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

I’ve cut out at 42 mph, I’m very well aware of the risks getting into high speed crashes. 

This wheel is merely a tool to accomplish one’s riding goals, the actual decision-making is up to the owner. 

Yes, the decision making is up to the rider. But recognizing that human beings are idiots and people are absolutely terrible at assessing risks, I also get to decide whether or not to speak out and advise people to wear protection at these speeds.

[Jon Stern]

I'll also point out that while the rider gets to make decisions on whether to wear a helmet or not, the family members who would have to look after them when they can't even wipe their own ass and feed themselves, probably won't have much freedom to choose.

[Ben Kim]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

That’s true. A doubling in speed requires quadrupling of braking distance. For example at 30km/h with a stopping distance of 6 metres, doubling speed to 60km/h will need a stopping distance of 24 metres! Not many riders know this.

 

When I get my Veteran, and if I think I will be going faster than 40km/h I will definitely be wearing full motorcycle gear, ie cowhide leather motorcycle jacket, gloves, helmets and kevlar riding pants geared for motorcycle use.

You hit the nail on the head. I know where I can speed, and how to gear up for a specific situation. I am not going 50 mph through Manhattan, but I will have no issues doing so on an empty road with no blind side dangers (e.g. service road on a highway)

The fastest I’ve gone was 43 mph on any EUC, so pushing 50 is going to be no mans land for me, but i’ll be making sure to minimize risk when attempting such speeds. 

PS: The guard rails make an excellent tethering point for an airbag vest, along with a strap for enhanced braking. (I’ve put a lot of thought into mitigating risk). 

[Ben Kim]

4 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I'll also point out that while the rider gets to make decisions on whether to wear a helmet or not, the family members who would have to look after them when they can't even wipe their own ass and feed themselves, probably won't have much freedom to choose.

I have the luxury of discussing techniques for minimizing damage due to the number of  suicidal riders in NYC (and Fantomas) sharing tons of experience (yes, the ones the rest of planet Earth resent). 

I survived 42 mph with no damage because of one thing: Don’t fight the cutout. Drop to your pads and slide. Good gear and proper jacket/coat are critical. 

Nobody should ride beyond what they’re comfortable with. I am comfortable with those speeds and find the risk no worse than that on a motorcycle and worse than on a fast e-scooter (some of which approach 80 mph). 

[Marty Backe]

41 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I'll also point out that while the rider gets to make decisions on whether to wear a helmet or not, the family members who would have to look after them when they can't even wipe their own ass and feed themselves, probably won't have much freedom to choose.

I've never liked that argument because then basically society gets to choose how we live our life. You're going to injure yourself and then the state will have to take care of you. That's too expensive for society so we won't allow it.

Liberty is my guiding principle in life and everything else takes back seat. Let me be as stupid as I want to be or as you think I am 

[Jon Stern]

32 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've never liked that argument because then basically society gets to choose how we live our life. You're going to injure yourself and then the state will have to take care of you. That's too expensive for society so we won't allow it.

Liberty is my guiding principle in life and everything else takes back seat. Let me be as stupid as I want to be or as you think I am 

We are social animals. I agree with starting with liberty (because going the other way means rights are denied and have to then be fought for), but then check if our actions are selfish and would harm others unduly (a good check is whether we would accept that harm inflicted on us by others).

I'm not calling for mandating what adults do with their own bodies (we have too much of that already). The government does not own us. I am however asking people to listen to the case for caution, and then make their choices; and that people start from the principle that we are absolutely terrible at assessing risk. We get worked up by certain very improbable risks, while ignoring those that are much more likely. This is just down to how our brains work. The only way to avoid this is to consider evidence and look at the statistics, when they are available.

Also "like" or "dislike" for an argument is an aesthetic response, not a logical evaluation.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Jon Stern

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

this wheel is the first one where you can push 40, hold it and not worry about cutout. The headroom it has to the former speed king MSX 100V is quite significant. 

but doesn't the MSX have more torque? so has faster acceleration?  

that's what i saw from some video, when they raced a veteran and msx from standstill

arguably,  isn't that better then having a higher top/average riding speed?

[Chriull]

31 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

but doesn't the MSX have more torque? so has faster acceleration?  

Faster accelleration (more "absolute" torque) does not really have to correlate with the max torque over speed limit of a wheel - eg the headroom/safety/torque margin one has left driving at a certain speed.

Quote

that's what i saw from some video, when they raced a veteran and msx from standstill

One can outperform in acceleration another wheel but still have a lower headroom at higher speeds. Or one wheel can have higher accelerations and higher headroom at higher speeds - depends on the motor and battery combination.

If they have different wheel diameters, that transforms torque, too.

And it looks like veteran has some max torque throtteling - to prevent wires/mosfets from frying too easily at lower speeds.

Also the "riders skills/experience with a wheel" could make a difference in using the capabilities up to the limits.

Maybe performing the drag race with a bit longer distance could have led to another outcome.

There are many details to consider if one wants to compare two wheels in a fair way and get a profound decission what fits better for one personally.

Quote

arguably,  isn't that better then having a higher top/average riding speed?

A higher top speed is normally an indicator for more "headroom" driving at a certain (higher) speed compared to a wheel with lower top speed. Although this higher top speed wheel eventually could have no chance in an acceleration race against this "lower top speed" wheel until this certain (higher) speed.

(Much) more details on this topic can be found at https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do=findComment&comment=107721

 

[ir_fuel]

3 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

I survived 42 mph with no damage because of one thing: Don’t fight the cutout. Drop to your pads and slide. Good gear and proper jacket/coat are critical. 

You forget one thing, and this is the same with motorcycle accidents.

It's not falling that will hurt you (well, it will, but not the most), it's suddenly stopping.

When you fall at 20mph, how far do you go before stopping? Not that far honestly. Now fall and slide at 40+mph. You will need a lot more space before coming to a full stop. If you have the right technique and some luck (although I know there are riders here that dismiss luck and claim they will always be able to fall "safely" because of "technique" ...) you'll slide it or roll it out fine, until you realise there is an obstacle in the way when still going 15mph. Now, what's 15mph? That's not so fast now is it? Until you slide into a curb, a wall, or a car at 15mph and find some part of your body (or your entire body) needing to absorb the slowdown from 15 to nearly zero. That's when the (permanent) damage is done.

That's also why for motorcycles there are race tracks with big run offs. As long as you can fall and slide, and you wear your equipment, you should be ok'ish (with some broken bones if you are out of luck), as long as you can slide to a complete stop. 

The faster we make EUC's, the bigger the chance that we run out of room before coming to a complete stop.

[onizukagto]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/565673140760848/permalink/571909816803847/?sfnsn=mo&d=n&vh=i

woooah! people are already doing stunts with the veteran.

 

[zege]

Tishawn made a first impressions video. I am really getting excited about this wheel. 
 

https://youtu.be/p74pI0fHDPo

[ir_fuel]

Just wondering, is it common that some company sends you an (expensive) wheel you can test and one of the things you do with it (as explicitly stated in this video) is try and smash it to pieces to see how it holds up?

[Ben Kim]

4 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Just wondering, is it common that some company sends you an (expensive) wheel you can test and one of the things you do with it (as explicitly stated in this video) is try and smash it to pieces to see how it holds up?

Would you rather find out the hard way after you spend your money? I, for one, am thankful they abused the heck out of that wheel so I don’t have to spend my money wondering. 

[ir_fuel]

I just asked a question.

[mike_bike_kite]

I think Tishawn was just making a joke. The wheel got damaged by the big guy who was trying to see how fast it would go. The same wheel then gets sent to other folk to review. Not sure whether they replaced the front headlamp or just bent it back into shape. 

[jimjam.nyc]

I think the other part of safety people are forgetting.. Is hurting other people. 

I get it.. we all know our abilities, and its up to us to be responsible for ourselves..  I back that 100%.. wear a helmet.. don't wear a helmet.. Do you!

This thing at speed can def do some damage if it loses control. 

Unfortunately the space we use to ride is shared..

I can care less if you break your own face.. But please don't put unnecessary risk on others that are out there... /PSA

This wheel looks pretty awesome.. Its nice to have options and new things other than suspension coming out this year.. If speed was my need, i would def be looking at this wheel a little more seriously.. First impressions look nice, hopefully it holds up over time! 

[Ben Kim]

On 6/29/2020 at 5:17 AM, ir_fuel said:

You forget one thing, and this is the same with motorcycle accidents.

It's not falling that will hurt you (well, it will, but not the most), it's suddenly stopping.

When you fall at 20mph, how far do you go before stopping? Not that far honestly. Now fall and slide at 40+mph. You will need a lot more space before coming to a full stop. If you have the right technique and some luck (although I know there are riders here that dismiss luck and claim they will always be able to fall "safely" because of "technique" ...) you'll slide it or roll it out fine, until you realise there is an obstacle in the way when still going 15mph. Now, what's 15mph? That's not so fast now is it? Until you slide into a curb, a wall, or a car at 15mph and find some part of your body (or your entire body) needing to absorb the slowdown from 15 to nearly zero. That's when the (permanent) damage is done.

That's also why for motorcycles there are race tracks with big run offs. As long as you can fall and slide, and you wear your equipment, you should be ok'ish (with some broken bones if you are out of luck), as long as you can slide to a complete stop. 

The faster we make EUC's, the bigger the chance that we run out of room before coming to a complete stop.

I have yet to see anyone riding 40+ MPH in anything but open road conditions.  Am I missing something here?   I don't see anyone yelling at motorcyclists who weave in and out of traffic at 80-90 MPH yet we are here arguing the merits of 20 MPH vs 40?  Let's not forget the e-scooter guys pushing 50 (soon 60+ MPH) on open road or any cyclist who gets t-boned by a car or hits a pedestrian in NYC (There were 4491 cyclist injuries in our city in 2017, some of you live in townships where your whole population doesn't even reach that number. 

It's amazing how people think so one-dimensional, assuming where they live applies to the most densely populated large city in the country.  By some of your logic, we should have no transportation aside from walking because cars pollute, trains spread disease, and cyclists get killed every day! 

[Mango]

Speedyfeet got his hands on the Veteran. He appears to be really excited about it "like a little kid" and hasn't felt that way about EUCs for several years.