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I downgraded my firmware to 1.05 and switched to the Chao Yang


Mike Sacristan

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I downgraded as well and am a bit heavier than you. Have the CY tire.   So much more fun than 1.07.  Power response is amazing.   Def better for trail riding.   I don't go over 46 kmh so don't worry about cut outs.   Looking forward to 1.08 to see if it bridges the gap between 1.05 and 1.07

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3 hours ago, Wgm said:

I downgraded as well and am a bit heavier than you. Have the CY tire.   So much more fun than 1.07.  Power response is amazing.   Def better for trail riding.   I don't go over 46 kmh so don't worry about cut outs.   Looking forward to 1.08 to see if it bridges the gap between 1.05 and 1.07

Indeed. Everything after 1.05 was to save people from themselves haha. :roflmao:

Kingsong did an amazing job making this wheel feel like a small wheel. I rode the hell out of 1.05 for the first few thousand km. Today I pushed harder than normal... I will suit up and push even harder and see where and when it says no.

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I am looking forward to your YouTube video and your impressions of the Chao Yang.

My 16X came with the Chao Yang and I appreciate the way it maneuvers easily. But it think my tire had a defect from day 1. It feels like it has a soft spot, perhaps something wrong with the nylon plies. Every revolution of the wheel gives me a little dip in height with a slight wobble. It is nothing major, but after riding the Monster and 18XL that had perfectly smooth feeling tires, it makes me want to put a new tire on the 16X. I like the way the CST C-1488 feels that came on the 18XL, and should be on the MSP. It feels firm yet still absorbs the small bumps. When I feel like it, I'll put the CST on the 16X.

 

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22 hours ago, Scottie said:

I am looking forward to your YouTube video and your impressions of the Chao Yang.

My 16X came with the Chao Yang and I appreciate the way it maneuvers easily. But it think my tire had a defect from day 1. It feels like it has a soft spot, perhaps something wrong with the nylon plies. Every revolution of the wheel gives me a little dip in height with a slight wobble. It is nothing major, but after riding the Monster and 18XL that had perfectly smooth feeling tires, it makes me want to put a new tire on the 16X. I like the way the CST C-1488 feels that came on the 18XL, and should be on the MSP. It feels firm yet still absorbs the small bumps. When I feel like it, I'll put the CST on the 16X.

 

I believe the bump/dip has to do with the tube. The tube valve stops the tyre from going in properly.
Some people have twisted the valve, others have milled the valve opening in the rim to give it more space.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks @Mike Sacristan!

The info you provided is very useful, especially on battery drain and speed throttling. 65V is under 15% battery right? 35 km/h is very decent, and those are pretty much the same figure I was getting on 2.02:

photo-2020-05-01-22-28-18.jpg

BTW, what's the issue with skateparks? If it isn't braking hard enough on 1.05, I don't want to know what it would be like on 1.07 or 2.02...

Pedal-dipping a GW? Blasphemy! Please, EUC Gods, don't let this thread turn into a shitstorm! :roflmao:

I was able to get a 20 km ride in yesterday with about 5 km worth of very rutted off-roading. I have to say the braking on 1.05 makes going down steep inclines much, much easier than on 1.07 or 2.02. On flat but very rutted paths (a lot of slow-speed manoeuvring and near-standstill acceleration) it behaves fine but feels like off-roading on my 18XL (heavier, requiring more effort),  while especially with 2.02, it felt much nimbler. It climbed the hill with no problem whatsoever, so overall, low-end torque seems to require more effort but it's still there. My general impression is that it's worse at standstill, up to above 10-15 km/h, while above that, it accelerates like a bat out of hell.

I'm kind of on the fence about off-roading: I think that, overall, I like 2.02 the best FW for off-roading, the low-end torque makes gnarly crawling-speed sections much more painless, but on steep downhills, it feels like the wheel is constantly trying to get away from you, while 1.05 respond miles better in terms of deceleration. 1.07 is very close to 2.02, the only difference being that acceleration isn't quite as good/smooth/effortless, and braking seems to be worse.

For on-road...1.05 blows all other FWs out of the water, hands down. Near-zero traffic, empty roads all to myself... I just went nuts for the remaining 15 km on-road, I think that's the most fun I've ever had riding on asphalt. WOW was that fun! I hot-dogged the hell out of the wheel, to the point my battery dropped from 78% (76.7V) to 55% (73.3V) in 14 km... :whistling:

Too bad we can't change FW on the fly, choosing different torque-delivery algorithms for on-road and off-road. All the same, I think I'm going to stay on 1.05 for a while... :D

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3 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Thanks @Mike Sacristan!

The info you provided is very useful, especially on battery drain and speed throttling. 65V is under 15% battery right? 35 km/h is very decent, and those are pretty much the same figure I was getting on 2.02:

photo-2020-05-01-22-28-18.jpg

Correct! Same V and % according to Darknessbot.

3 minutes ago, travsformation said:

BTW, what's the issue with skateparks? If it isn't braking hard enough on 1.05, I don't want to know what it would be like on 1.07 or 2.02...

At 13:10 in the clip when I go down. The hardest mode on FW 1.05 is still squishy with the pedals having more range of motion than the softest 1.07 mode. When going down and trying to brake the wheel I over lean backwards because of the squish. I should just practice more. Oh wait.. I did yesterday. Oh wait... I fell on my ass the other day. Like I said... I should just practice more though. 

 

3 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Pedal-dipping a GW? Blasphemy! Please, EUC Gods, don't let this thread turn into a shitstorm! :roflmao:

Haha. From a stand still. 100v no less. People have done this on the MSX as well.

3 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I was able to get a 20 km ride in yesterday with about 5 km worth of very rutted off-roading. I have to say the braking on 1.05 makes going down steep inclines much, much easier than on 1.07 or 2.02. On flat but very rutted paths (a lot of slow-speed manoeuvring and near-standstill acceleration) it behaves fine but feels like off-roading on my 18XL (heavier, requiring more effort),  while especially with 2.02, it felt much nimbler. It climbed the hill with no problem whatsoever, so overall, low-end torque seems to require more effort but it's still there. My general impression is that it's worse at standstill, up to above 10-15 km/h, while above that, it accelerates like a bat out of hell.

I'm kind of on the fence about off-roading: I think that, overall, I like 2.02 the best FW for off-roading, the low-end torque makes gnarly crawling-speed sections much more painless, but on steep downhills, it feels like the wheel is constantly trying to get away from you, while 1.05 respond miles better in terms of deceleration. 1.07 is very close to 2.02, the only difference being that acceleration isn't quite as good/smooth/effortless, and braking seems to be worse.

For on-road...1.05 blows all other FWs out of the water, hands down. Near-zero traffic, empty roads all to myself... I just went nuts for the remaining 15 km on-road, I think that's the most fun I've ever had riding on asphalt. WOW was that fun! I hot-dogged the hell out of the wheel, to the point my battery dropped from 78% (76.7V) to 55% (73.3V) in 14 km... :whistling:

Too bad we can't change FW on the fly, choosing different torque-delivery algorithms for on-road and off-road. All the same, I think I'm going to stay on 1.05 for a while... :D

The wheel getting away from here is how I generally feel about the 16X haha. Especially going down "steep" hills around 20 degrees.
At standstill my first batch 16X gives me some very handy squish and zip that I can use to torque over roots and rocks. So it sounds like we are getting some different behaviour there.

Yeah it would be something if we could just change FW on the fly!
OFF-ROAD MODE!
STREET MODE!

etc.

Thanks for sharing your experiences! I will find some hills and swap between FW 1.05 and then FW 2.02. 

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14 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

Caved in and did the downgrade as well. Initially had the same experience as everyone - the output felt raw and much more enjoyable. Brakes hard like a 2000w wheel should. Power at the low end is so much easier to access.

However after some freestyling the old firmware started to show its flaws. I am careful and listen to my wheel but also ride hard. Stair drops, MTB trails and the like are a regular occasion for me. On two drops the pedals actually dipped forward and stayed stuck until i got off and allowed the wheel to straighten out. 

Did you have music on? 
I have only gotten this behaviour when using the bluetooth speakers or being connected to them.
I keep them on, but I do not connect (on my iPhone -> forget device). That way the wheel is silent when I turn it on. No loud voice saying bluetooth is on/off.

14 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

1.05 also seemed much more sensitive to voltage level changes. At 40% battery it was getting really difficult to get the wheel to pendulum and flick into a backwards ride. Never had this problem with my 16x before but did get it on the much more primitive gt16.

According to the notes they improved this in the future FW versions saying that the wheel behaviour was more similar at all times (same riding feel) despite voltage. While at FW 1.05 and low battery the 16X could get a bit of a "boaty" feel.

14 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

The final nail in the coffin for me was that i managed to get a pedal dip at 65% battery at full speed. Was not even trying for it. Actually was feeling carefully to see when the tiltback would kick in when I felt the pedals give way for a split second. Thankfully managed to jerk my body backwards and recover. Kept the rest of my ride strictly below 40kph after that. 

Phew... man... goodbye FW 1.05! That is some scary stuff. Then you have done what was required of you. For your own sanity lol. Good job recovering and being so attentive. 

14 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

Have just swapped back to 2.02.. guess 1.05 is not for me after all. Really loved the more raw feeling but just didn't feel it was safe enough for my kind of riding in the end. 55kg guy here. Might be useful information for the benefit of those considering this downgrade as well.

One data point I did not manage to get but wished I could was if there was any notable differences in battery life between the two. What are your experiences?

Regarding battery life it feels like I am getting better battery usage in FW 1.05. The weather is a couple of degree warmer but still.
I think keeping the pedals extra level costs more battery.. and there might be other factors at play.
I would say at least 10% battery usage though.

Is your 16X a first batch? Do you know which board you have?
Sorry for almost killing you!

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Wow, I never played with all this, it seems to be over complicated..  I never left 1.05 and LOVE this wheel, it’s my favorite go-to errand wheel, that has beautiful agility.
I just don’t try to ride it at 30 mph, it’s as simple as that.

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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

At 13:10 in the clip when I go down. The hardest mode on FW 1.05 is still squishy with the pedals having more range of motion than the softest 1.07 mode. When going down and trying to brake the wheel I over lean backwards because of the squish. I should just practice more. Oh wait.. I did yesterday. Oh wait... I fell on my ass the other day. Like I said... I should just practice more though. 

Strong stuff Mike!:cheers:

49878109597_5abc2ed439_b.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Tinkererboi said:

However after some freestyling the old firmware started to show its flaws. I am careful and listen to my wheel but also ride hard. Stair drops, MTB trails and the like are a regular occasion for me. On two drops the pedals actually dipped forward and stayed stuck until i got off and allowed the wheel to straighten out. 

1.05 also seemed much more sensitive to voltage level changes. At 40% battery it was getting really difficult to get the wheel to pendulum and flick into a backwards ride. Never had this problem with my 16x before but did get it on the much more primitive gt16.

The final nail in the coffin for me was that i managed to get a pedal dip at 65% battery at full speed. Was not even trying for it. Actually was feeling carefully to see when the tiltback would kick in when I felt the pedals give way for a split second. Thankfully managed to jerk my body backwards and recover. Kept the rest of my ride strictly below 40kph after that. 

Yikes, I don't blame you for ditching 1.05. The minute safety issues appear, in my book that takes precedence over fun factor and extra torque!

BTW what batch is your wheel? Do you know what board it has?

Edited by travsformation
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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

At 13:10 in the clip when I go down. The hardest mode on FW 1.05 is still squishy with the pedals having more range of motion than the softest 1.07 mode. When going down and trying to brake the wheel I over lean backwards because of the squish. I should just practice more. Oh wait.. I did yesterday. Oh wait... I fell on my ass the other day. Like I said... I should just practice more though. 

:roflmao:

You're asking for it by subjecting the poor wheel to such abuse...it probably thinks you're an ass, and you know how the saying goes, "An ass for an ass" :efee612b4b:

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The wheel getting away from here is how I generally feel about the 16X haha. Especially going down "steep" hills around 20 degrees.
At standstill my first batch 16X gives me some very handy squish and zip that I can use to torque over roots and rocks. So it sounds like we are getting some different behaviour there.

Yeah it would be something if we could just change FW on the fly!
OFF-ROAD MODE!
STREET MODE!

etc.

For me the wheel not getting away has been quite a revelation! 

Really, thanks for sharing your experience with 1.05, if it hadn't been for your safety record with it, I might not have tried. Then again, @Tinkererboi's experience is a good reminder that when trying any new firmware it's important to be vigilant and mindful. I haven't experienced anything like what he had, but I didn't push the wheel above 45 km/h.  40 km/h is as fast a cruising speed as I feel comfortable with, 45 from time to time, but not often (we'll see...riding fast seems to feel more natural with 1.05, it somehow demands to be ridden fast) :whistling:

But the ol' shoulder injury is still very much in my mind (as it should) whenever I go above 40 km/h or down a rutted hill from hell 

BTW, you forgot "freestyle mode" ;)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Skecys said:

Where are you guys getting these FW from? My KS app says I'm up to date (1.07).

Long story short, KS has no viable app for iOS users, so they've released their SoftTuner app (also know as engineer app) for iOS users, which allows for firmware upgrades, downgrades, beta versions, etc. The app is also available for Android, some of us have received it from our distributors for various reasons (a new FW caused an issue as we wanted to downgrade, etc).

My general advice is that since each new firmware brings new safety features, the best is to stick with the latest stable release. If you're happy with 1.07 and don't have any issues, I'd stick with it.

 

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I installed the soft tuner app and downgraded to FW105 ,it lasted 1 day  and went back to 107 which has the best overall feel , I'll try 202 next and see if there's differences, I do like the wheel in any firmware 107 just seems right

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2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Is your 16X a first batch? Do you know which board you have?
Sorry for almost killing you!

Welll.. i completely forgot 🤣. Remembered opening it to check the moment it arrived at my doorstep and was relieved to know I got the first batch of trouble-free boards though. Would that be 1.5 board? 

No worries, we are all responsible for our own safety! Had been itching to try the downgrade for ages myself.

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

think keeping the pedals extra level costs more battery.. and there might be other factors at play.
I would say at least 10% battery usage though

Definitely felt that way... too bad I did not have enough time with it to know for sure. 

As for bluetooth music, it was definitely connected throughout the whole ride. Perhaps another safety pointer to note for those who want to enjoy fw1.05 at its full potential - disconnect bluetooth music.

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49 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Long story short, KS has no viable app for iOS users, so they've released their SoftTuner app (also know as engineer app) for iOS users, which allows for firmware upgrades, downgrades, beta versions, etc. The app is also available for Android, some of us have received it from our distributors for various reasons (a new FW caused an issue as we wanted to downgrade, etc).

My general advice is that since each new firmware brings new safety features, the best is to stick with the latest stable release. If you're happy with 1.07 and don't have any issues, I'd stick with it.

 

I see, this is not available to the general user base? I am happy with 1.07 but I still have that "famed" cutout on my mind. I figure newer means better/more refined and worth a try. ;)

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1 hour ago, Skecys said:

I see, this is not available to the general user base?

  Technically, only if you have iOS. But considering that it's available to iOS users, it only makes sense for it to be equally available to Android users. Then again, KS hasn't said as much so I don't know if they/retailers would approve of the app being shared without their consent

1 hour ago, Skecys said:

I am happy with 1.07 but I still have that "famed" cutout on my mind. I figure newer means better/more refined and worth a try. ;)

Cutouts are probably more likely in older versions (1.05, 1.06) than newer ones (1.07 or 2.02). 

2.02 is still in beta, there are no release notes, so to date, there's no objective info on what the changes are--only subjective impressions from the users who have tried it out. If you want to stay informed on 2.02, there's a thread dedicated to the subject :)
 

 

Edited by travsformation
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Firmware 1.05 is not reason about cutouts/overleans. Time show is not FW 1.05  related event. No make urban legends confuse you mind.

 Only objective change is more agresively FAN politics in 1.06 /1.07 FW.  

More documented accidents overleans /cit outs call it hou you want is on FW 1.07 and this is fact! And mainboards after 9.9.19 this mean actual 1.5 "new" mainboard(bluetooth moved ).

All kingson Firmwares is save to use. Time proofed is 1.07 for all KS16X what is created after 9-9-2019 this is day when come mainboard 1.5 serial production.

For ppl who have KS16X created before 9.9.19 is FW 1.05 (stock) optimized very good and have great result and response no instal 1.05 to new ks16x no have sense and no benefit.  

FW 1.05 on board 1.5 is not good results is save ok no problem just 1.07 is beter stick to new board 1.5. 

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42 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

Firmware 1.05 is not reason about cutouts/overleans. Time show is not FW 1.05  related event. No make urban legends confuse you mind.

 Only objective change is more agresively FAN politics in 1.06 /1.07 FW.  

More documented accidents overleans /cit outs call it hou you want is on FW 1.07 and this is fact! And mainboards after 9.9.19 this mean actual 1.5 "new" mainboard(bluetooth moved ).

All kingson Firmwares is save to use. Time proofed is 1.07 for all KS16X what is created after 9-9-2019 this is day when come mainboard 1.5 serial production.

For ppl who have KS16X created before 9.9.19 is FW 1.05 (stock) optimized very good and have great result and response no instal 1.05 to new ks16x no have sense and no benefit.  

FW 1.05 on board 1.5 is not good results is save ok no problem just 1.07 is beter stick to new board 1.5. 

I share the sentiment that nothing is wrong with the firmware, that 1.06 and 1.07 were created rather to protect users from themselves...

But it is true that some things have been refined and improved in later FWs, including safety features. But no amount of FW changes can keep certain people from face-planting... :efee612b4b:

Edited by travsformation
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