MSS vs MSP

[HippoPig]

1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said:

Interesting.

After watching Wrong Way!'s video now for the 3rd time at 7:30 he does say the MSS has a motor of "around 2300W of nominal power". He then goes on to say they also upgrade the "MBS (or power supply)" and says it makes it even more torquy than the MSP.

Guess we'll have to wait and see some more comparison videos to see if Wrong Way!'s claims of being both "more torquy" and "having a higher top speed" are born out by other reviewers.

It will be interesting to see if EucService really have cracked the holy grail of increasing both –and doing so with a (slightly) lower rated motor. I for one an intrigued.

I was on the fence about the MSP, I don’t want to even have to worry about listening for beeps.

 

I ordered the MSS today (1800).

[HippoPig]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It's simply a different electric motor.

For more information, please see: https://www.motioncontroltips.com/torque-equation/

TL;DR: If you want the wheel to spin faster, you must either put a higher-voltage battery, or change the motor to a lower-torque design.
(That's a simplification, but practically correct.)
 

 

It’s late and I’m not electrical, but  what happens if you use a motor with lower resistance in the motor coils? (From linked equation)

could that maintain (or increase) torque levels whilst achieving a higher rotational speed?

[RagingGrandpa]

5 minutes ago, HippoPig said:

use a motor with lower resistance in the motor coils

But how do you propose lowering resistance?
Copper is heavy, bulky, and expensive. Silver prohibitively expensive.

(There's nothing good about resistance, we always want to minimize it... but this must be balanced with other criteria, foremost: size, cost)

[HippoPig]

Just now, RagingGrandpa said:

But how do you propose lowering resistance?
Copper is heavy, bulky, and expensive. Silver prohibitively expensive.

(There's nothing good about resistance, we always want to minimize it... but this must be balanced with other criteria, foremost: size, cost)

Honestly the only thing I can think is that it’s a more expensive motor, due to lower resistance components (somehow?).

Gotway are mass market producer and they’ll need to find a balance between top speed, torque and price.

maybe the 2500W uses particularly cheap copper, or arranged differently (or something?) allowing for the torque but sacrificing top speed to keep cost down.

[RagingGrandpa]

It's a product, built to a price... thank god for that, because I would not be a participant if these were $5k+ machines.

If you permit more cost and complexity, of course more performance is possible.

The attractive answer has always been 'voltage' - Gotway pioneered 24s, and has investigated 30s... maybe we'll see it some day.

But the EUC's we have today are really good. I get my MSP and you get your MSS and everyone's happy and can still afford rent

Edited April 24, 2020 by RagingGrandpa

[Rafal]

2 minutes ago, HippoPig said:

maybe the 2500W uses particularly cheap copper, or arranged differently (or something?) allowing for the torque but sacrificing top speed to keep cost down

Some basic staff about electric motors. 

1. The speed of the motor depends on his kv. Same motor can by rewind to different speed. So motor with 10kv for given 1 V will rotate 10 times per minute. 

So that is why 100V wheel is faster then 84V wheel with the motor with the same speed.(kv)

2. The torque deppends on the amperage, and amperage deppends on the controller used .So one controller with 20 Amps will give you less torque than 30A controller of course with motor with same kv.

3. Nominal power of the motor is just nominal power. For example motor rated for 2500W that means for example 100Volts x 25Amps. Peak 4000W is 100V x 40A. 

For electric motor you can push as many amps and volts as you want. So for same motor you can give 150Volts and 60 Amps and you will push 9000Watts. But motor can overheat and burn. So nominal only says that manufacturer rated the motor to work continuously with those power without failure. 

So for 84V MSX and 100V MSX, the motor power will be different. If 84v has peak power of 4000Watts/84Volts=47.62Amps then 100V will have peak power of 47.62Amps x x100Volts = 4762Watts. 

 

 

 

 

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

3 hours ago, johnyz89 said:

Wrongway said that is hardly visible even when its dark so i wouldnt count on it so much.

He now rectified and said it's very visible (at night, of course) 

[xorbe]

Surely the MSP Speed is just MSP shell MSX guts.  I seriously doubt a single euc vendor had a custom motor wound.  It's more likely that with a bigger battery, they might have secured a custom firmware from Gotway that drives a little harder.  I know scooter vendors request different caps on firmwares.

Edited April 30, 2020 by xorbe

[ugoaps]

7 minutes ago, xorbe said:

Surely the MSP Speed is just MSP shell MSX guts.  I seriously doubt a single euc vendor had a custom motor wound.  It's more likely that with a bigger battery, they might have secured a custom firmware from Gotway that drives a little harder.  I know scooter vendors request different caps on firmwares.

 

The 2250wh battery is optional, the basic MSS includes the original 1800wh MSP battery, and its maximum speed is the same as that of the 2250wh version. The only difference is the range

[HippoPig]

9 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It's a product, built to a price... thank god for that, because I would not be a participant if these were $5k+ machines.

If you permit more cost and complexity, of course more performance is possible.

The attractive answer has always been 'voltage' - Gotway pioneered 24s, and has investigated 30s... maybe we'll see it some day.

But the EUC's we have today are really good. I get my MSP and you get your MSS and everyone's happy and can still afford rent

They will hopefully both be great machines.

 

honestly - I’m a little nervous ordering the MSS over the MSP. 
 

If we weren’t in lockdown still, I’d have possibly gone for the MSP, but figured if I have to wait anyway, it’s worth a try 😬

[Slartibartfast]

11 hours ago, ugoaps said:

There is a lot of confusion regarding this wheel. First it was said that it was an MSP with an MSX engine. This experiment has already been done by phantoms ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4ZDSJo1DU0&t=144s

But the truth is that the MSP engine is not that of the MSX, Daniel Kot of EUCService has said it on facebook and other channels. It is a 2300w motor different from any Gotway. This together with a modification of the MBS is what turns MSP into MSS. All of this is detailed in the WrongWay review. However, Daniel Kot is reluctant to give many details about the modifications, and it is normal that this is the case, he wants to protect his business.

The maximum speed is noticeably higher than that of MSP, but it is not sure that the torque is higher. Adam from WrongWay in his review, as well as Daniel Kot from EUCService on facebook say that MSS has higher torque than MSP, but the data does not guarantee it safely:

WrongWay's Adam measures a 4.8-second MSS torque of 0-50km / h -> https://youtu.be/WMc4SBaqYp0?t=358

But, Kuji Rolls measures a MSP torque of 2.33 seconds from 0-50km / h -> https://youtu.be/QMQpDH_IXhU?t=363

Thus, it could be said that MSP has almost twice the torque of MSS. But also, Adam measures the MSP torque, and the result is about 7 seconds, more than double the Kuji measurement to the same wheel -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx0W1svSYrQ&t=

Therefore, the influence of the rider's technique is important, and there is still no reliable comparison. The truth is that many of us find it hard to believe that an MSP is capable of having more speed and more torque, replacing the motor with a other less powerful 200w motor.

Thank you @ugoaps, that was exactly the the kind of information I was after.

It's a shame Daniel Kot is not willing to let us know the details of the product he's pushing. It definitely leaves me feeling a little uneasy.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Slartibartfast

[HippoPig]

28 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Thank you @ugoaps, that was exactly the the kind of information I was after.

It's a shame Daniel Kot is not willing to let us know the details of the product he's pushing. It definitely leaves me feeling a little uneasy.

Kuji is using power pads in his test of the MSP FYI - Adam doesn’t have any on for either review.

Their weight could also differ wildly (though they’re both trim guys).

I get the comparison but I don’t think we can draw any conclusions from it.

[Slartibartfast]

1 hour ago, HippoPig said:

I get the comparison but I don’t think we can draw any conclusions from it.

Well, yes. That's basically the problem.

[HippoPig]

43 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Well, yes. That's basically the problem.

When mine arrives I’ll provide some more vague details

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, ugoaps said:

Adam from WrongWay in his review, as well as Daniel Kot from EUCService on facebook say that MSS has higher torque than MSP

One of the most important EUC related things I’ve learned in the last 12 months, is that some people either confuse or deliberately abbreviate “feeling of torque” to “torque” (a measurement in mechanical physics).

After learning this it all started to make a whole lot more sense. Now whenever I read “torque” I know that I can just as well skip the rest of the text.

 Same goes for EUC acceleration. As @ugoaps mentioned on the previous page, the fastest acceleration times vary wildly even between extremely experienced and skilled riders, who are as professional as an EUC rider can be. 

Quote

Therefore, the influence of the rider's technique is important, and there is still no reliable comparison.

Nor will there ever be, except from any single rider’s subjective perspective. Which can never mean that you or I would necessarily arrive in the same result.

 

 MSP and MSS are the two most powerful wheels at the moment. I don’t think anyone will overlean either of them below 30mph, unless the battery is totally empty.

Edited April 25, 2020 by mrelwood

[Sebrios]

20 hours ago, xorbe said:

I seriously doubt a single euc vendor had a custom motor wound

this is exactly what I think aswell.

for me, they just included more batteries, so the 80% edge is further (faster speed)

that, with the combination of the msx (2000W) motor, is nuts

[mrelwood]

Adding battery doesn’t increase the top speed.

Daniel (off EUCservice, the creator of the MSS) talked a bit about the MSS in a live chat a week or two ago, and he did say that the motor has not been previously used by GotWay, and I think there were modifications done to the firmware as well.

 I’m unclear whether there is a MSP Speed version that is separate of the EUCservice MSS (Msuper Sport). In pretty sure that I saw some Aliexpress sellers having a 2000W MSP “Speed” version, that would’ve been with the 100V MSX motor.

[BoseHeadphones]

23 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 I’m unclear whether there is a MSP Speed version that is separate of the EUCservice MSS (Msuper Sport). In pretty sure that I saw some Aliexpress sellers having a 2000W MSP “Speed” version, that would’ve been with the 100V MSX motor.

eWheels is taking preorders for a MSP high-speed variant with a 2000w motor:

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msx-pro-100v-1800wh-battery-2500w-motor/

I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of my MSP today, but hearing the MSS has higher top speed with no compromises to low-end acceleration leaves me a bit of buyer's remorse. I suspect that the MSS does have lower torque and reviewers haven't hit the limit of either wheel yet because both wheels are tremendously powerful. I await and salute the brave soul that manages to overlean one from a dig.

I had a similar feeling of missing out when I bought an 84v Nikola right as the 100v came out, but that feeling went away as soon as I started riding. I suspect it'll be the same cure this time .

[Patton250]

I just pre-ordered the MSP 2500W version. I’m really looking forward to some more reviews on it from you guys. I know eWheels has already sold 50 of them.

[Dan Hillary]

On 4/26/2020 at 2:58 PM, BoseHeadphones said:

eWheels is taking preorders for a MSP high-speed variant with a 2000w motor:

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msx-pro-100v-1800wh-battery-2500w-motor/

I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of my MSP today, but hearing the MSS has higher top speed with no compromises to low-end acceleration leaves me a bit of buyer's remorse. I suspect that the MSS does have lower torque and reviewers haven't hit the limit of either wheel yet because both wheels are tremendously powerful. I await and salute the brave soul that manages to overlean one from a dig.

I had a similar feeling of missing out when I bought an 84v Nikola right as the 100v came out, but that feeling went away as soon as I started riding. I suspect it'll be the same cure this time .

I suspect the eWheels MSS will sacrifice a lot of torque for its top speed. The only reason the MSS that EUCService (the one reviewed by Wrong Way) can have the best of both worlds is because it's an entirely new motor that we haven't seen before.

The confusion comes from the fact that they're both being called the same name.

[Patton250]

50 minutes ago, Dan Hillary said:

I suspect the eWheels MSS will sacrifice a lot of torque for its top speed. The only reason the MSS that EUCService (the one reviewed by Wrong Way) can have the best of both worlds is because it's an entirely new motor that we haven't seen before.

The confusion comes from the fact that they're both being called the same name.

I’m assuming and I could be wrong that the 2500W motor will have much more torque and acceleration then the 2000W motor. You guys are saying the 2000 W motor will not sacrifice anything to get a higher speed? How does that make any sense?

[BoseHeadphones]

44 minutes ago, Dan Hillary said:

I suspect the eWheels MSS will sacrifice a lot of torque for its top speed. The only reason the MSS that EUCService (the one reviewed by Wrong Way) can have the best of both worlds is because it's an entirely new motor that we haven't seen before.

The confusion comes from the fact that they're both being called the same name.

I hesitated to call the eWheels version the MSS because I've primarily seen the EUCService variant using that abbreviation.

I'm aware the EUCService is using a non-Gotway motor, but I'm skeptical of a third-party mod allows the MSP to hit 100v MSX speeds without any loss of torque. If that's the case Gotway should be grabbing up those 2300w motors and just selling an MSuper Ultimate instead of offering two options with compromises!

I'm equally aware I'm trying to avoid buyers remorse with my 2 day old MSP, but if the MSS really does have the best of both worlds it'd be an incredible performance package. I'm loving how my MSP rides, the only thing I may regret in the future is running into the 80% beeps too much.

1 minute ago, Patton250 said:

I’m assuming and I could be wrong that the 2500W motor will have much more torque and acceleration then the 2000W motor. You guys are saying the 2000 W motor will not sacrifice anything to get a higher speed? How does that make any sense?

The eWheels variant swaps out the stock 2500w MSP motor with a 2000w (MSX?) motor . I don't think there are any manufacturer MSPs with that swap in the wild, Fantomas did the swap himself. It probably sacrifices low-end torque for that top-speed, but I haven't seen any impressions from Fantomas on if that was even noticeable while riding.

The MSS from EUCService is a different 2300w motor that's not part of any of Gotway's current offerings. So it's a wildcard: in the Wrong Way review the MSS had enough torque to climb up same 40 degree hill he took the MSP on, and it was still able to hit 75 kph without cutting out on him (I don't remember if it was even beeping at that speed).

Reviewers need to start going up some 50 degree hills to start finding the limits of these wheels . I'm not feeling that brave!

[RagingGrandpa]

14 hours ago, Patton250 said:

the 2500W motor will have <> more torque and acceleration then the 2000W motor.

Yes. I think the difference is about 15%, and you don't need that extra torque unless you're using the wheel with custom pads and in exceptional circumstances.

[Patton250]

12 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Yes. I think the difference is about 15%, and you don't need that extra torque unless you're using the wheel with custom pads and in exceptional circumstances.

I don’t know what custom pads are

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

I don’t know what custom pads are

Here's one example that seems to be quite popular right now.