comparison InMotion V11 vs KingSong S18 - Suspension EUC Comparison

[z3n]

I made a comparison sheet based on data provided by both InMotion and KingSong. Hope it helps and please CMIIW. Cheers guys! 

Latest update: April 21st, 2020.

[mrelwood]

Great job, @z3n!

I do want to remind though that power rating, range, climb angle or even top speed are not directly comparable between manufacturers or even between wheel models.

Until confirmed by unbiased reviewers, I would also retract from taking the suspension travel and pedal height values too literally at this point, since I think slight scepticism may be warranted based on what we’ve seen so far.

[z3n]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Great job, @z3n!

I do want to remind though that power rating, range, climb angle or even top speed are not directly comparable between manufacturers or even between wheel models.

Until confirmed by unbiased reviewers, I would also retract from taking the suspension travel and pedal height values too literally at this point, since I think slight scepticism may be warranted based on what we’ve seen so far.

Agreed. But unfortunately for now we are left with only these specs provided by the manufacturers.

[mike_bike_kite]

Great data but I have a few comments if you want your table to be used for comparisons:

• Front light should be measured in the the same units (Lux to Lumens means nothing)
• Stating that the V11 has direct suspension as a feature while the S18 doesn't implies that direct suspension is better (it's not or at least it's only used on retro motorcycles these days)
• Stating that the spings travel 70mm on one wheel and 57mm on the other is disingenuous - it's the wheels suspension travel that riders should be more interested in which is apparently 70mm on one and 100mm on the other.
• The IP rating is just the manufactures guess. I'm sure the V11 will be better because of the enclosed design but the value given is fairly meaningless.
• The watch my be just vapour ware.
• I'd leave the distances out on both wheels until someone trusted has tried them.
• Size of the wheel would be good to know as both seem much larger than other wheels.
• Price would be particularly interesting to show.

[OneLeg]

I am not sure a 60 cell Unicycle for off0roading cuts it specially paired up with 2200W motor....

Overall I feel the V11 is wins expect it is heavy, not sure it matters when you get over 20kg.

 

It would be interesting to know what is the voltage of the motors of both units... they are not necessarily 72V, especially the S18

Edited April 21, 2020 by OneLeg

[z3n]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• Front light should be measured in the the same units (Lux to Lumens means nothing)

InMotion provided the number in Lux while KingSong in Lumens. We can't have the same measurement without knowing the area and radius of their calculation.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• Stating that the V11 has direct suspension as a feature while the S18 doesn't implies that direct suspension is better (it's not or at least it's only used on retro motorcycles these days)

There is no indication nor statement that direct suspension is better. Just showing the fact that V11 and S18 use different method for applying their dampening result, as officially provided by both manufacturers.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• Stating that the spings travel 70mm on one wheel and 57mm on the other is disingenuous - it's the wheels suspension travel that riders should be more interested in which is apparently 70mm on one and 100mm on the other.

Again, these numbers are officially provided by the manufacturers. That's why I put 2 sections for these, Suspension Travel and Dampening Travel.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• The IP rating is just the manufactures guess. I'm sure the V11 will be better because of the enclosed design but the value given is fairly meaningless.

Agreed. The IP Rating is purely based on the info provided by the manufacturers, at least what they claimed to have. InMotion claimed one, while KingSong didn't. (Please CMIIW).

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• The watch my be just vapour ware.

Dunno. Let's just wait and see then. 

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• I'd leave the distances out on both wheels until someone trusted has tried them.

Too many variables involved here, rider weight, riding environment, riding style, riding speed etc. That's why there is an "Up To" in the sheet. 

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• Size of the wheel would be good to know as both seem much larger than other wheels.

Good point. I will update it again when I get the official statement from them.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

• Price would be particularly interesting to show.

Different regions have their own retail prices (different taxes etc). I'm afraid you would get shocked to know the prices in a third-world country like where I am. 

1 hour ago, OneLeg said:

I am not sure a 60 cell Unicycle for off0roading cuts it specially paired up with 2200W motor....

Overall I feel the V11 is wins expect it is heavy, not sure it matters when you get over 20kg.

 

It would be interesting to know what is the voltage of the motors of both units... they are not necessarily 72V, especially the S18

I am kinda hesitant as well since 20S3P doesn't look enough but who knows maybe it is when you actually ride one.

27 kg is heavy, but I have a Z10 and I am used to it. So no big deal for me here. 

I will update it again when I have confirmation about the motors voltage. 

[mike_bike_kite]

I don't have any skin in the game. My last wheel was Inmotion and my current wheel is Kingsong. I think the V11 is a lovely looking wheel but what bothers me are the weird numbers and units that Inmotion is using to try and demonstrate their wheel is better. It just makes me very suspicious. Your table in some areas perpetuates that weirdness. 

[RockyTop]

I keep hearing that the S18 has an open system that makes it less water resistant. And, the closed shell On the V11 will keep things dryer. 
I just don’t see that. Each of the KingSong’s components is sealed. You have several boxes, each with a component in it. I agree that because of the wires needing to travel from one box to another, each box has an opening that has to be sealed but that is not difficult. If water does get in, it is limited to that component. That is a good thing. On the other hand, the closed system is only sealed until you drop the wheel once cranking the shell and then water gets to all of the components at once. I am heavily in favor of the open modular system. 
 

As far as repairing or maintaining the suspension, It sure seems easier to work on the S18. You can buy the exact shock on Amazon for $89 or upgrade to FOX for $400

AND when it comes to battery size......... ..   

well? The batteries are still bigger that the Z10 , V10 and Tesla 

Edited April 21, 2020 by RockyTop

[.....]

11 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I keep hearing that the S18 has an open system that makes it less water resistant. And, the closed shell On the V11 will keep things dryer. 
I just don’t see that. Each of the KingSong’s components is sealed. You have several boxes, each with a component in it. I agree that because of the wires needing to travel from one box to another, each box has an opening that has to be sealed but that is not difficult. If water does get in, it is limited to that component. That is a good thing. On the other hand, the closed system is only sealed until you drop the wheel once cranking the shell and then water gets to all of the components at once. I am heavily in favor of the open modular system. 
 

As far as repairing or maintaining the suspension, It sure seems easier to work on the S18. You can buy the exact shock on Amazon for $89 or upgrade to FOX for $400

AND when it comes to battery size......... ..   

well? The batteries are still bigger that the Z10 , V10 and Tesla 

Careful, you are making too much sense and going to piss off the 'v11 is superior' crowd. I'm reserving judgement, but it seems the die has been cast for most.  Pros and cons to both an open and closed design. A semi' closed design would trap water and you wouldnt even know it, should any work its way in. An open design wouldnt trap water and allows evaporation and cleaning.  Of course a completely sealed design doesnt get ANY water in it, but we know how well 'completely sealed' works on a lot of chinese products over time. I like the idea of being able to easily inspect parts that are MADE to wear out, like suspensions and all the bushings/friction surfaces contained within.

Edited April 21, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[jonm42]

2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You can buy the exact shock on Amazon for $89 or upgrade to FOX for $400

What about the Fox makes it >4x better? Unless its the MBZ syndrome for the name recognition?

[.....]

1 hour ago, jonm42 said:

What about the Fox makes it >4x better? Unless its the MBZ syndrome for the name recognition?

Good luck getting a solid answer on that. I would HOPE that 'fox' has tighter quality control and better materials(dont forget accountability, ethics, insurance and customer service). Of course maybe not. I do know that a LOT of the price is due to brand name and their marketing costs. The fox is probably better for longevity, but this is just guessing. I'd be more willing to bet that its not 4.5x's better. For most casual users, I bet the stock shock would perform okay. If you have to ask how much, you aint the type they are marketing for.  I'd be most concerned about it if i was your typical heavy american that is doulbe the weight of the typical chinese. Only time will tell us if the heavier users and lighter users BOTH get to properly utilize the same shock. Hooray for the skinny people, suspensions always seem to like us! In the end, I am pretty sure I'll upgrade a shock even if it costs a lot(AFTER I hose it down to check water resistance , i aint scared). Expensive suspension is nothing new in this house.  For those that don't know, investing in suspension is NOT linear. You will spend a SHIT TON of money to get little gains. I'd bet its crossing the point of diminishing returns by a mile, once you put $400 suspension on a euc. We already know what QC and quality to expect of the plastics and electronics. You have MUCH to learn yet, if you think that price is a linear indication of quality. In the world of suspension, $400 is usually just the tax I pay when it comes time to upgrade. I can't wait until the market is willing to pay enough for this stuff, that we can get actual quality thru and thru, not this corner cutting market the euc world is currently in. If i find the shock is the actual limiting factor (i doubt it), tis nothing for me to have a custom shock made at probably more than half the cost of the entire euc

@jonm42 You quoted me on that and I didnt say that. No big deal, but I honestly don't know exact costs of either.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You can buy the exact shock on Amazon for $89 or upgrade to FOX for $400

Edited April 21, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[RockyTop]

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'll upgrade a shock even if it costs a lot.

I already have several of the Fox shock on my mountain bikes. I will just .....   Hey!!  My wife would never know the difference!! I will swap with her bicycle.   ......       They are different colors.  Never mind! She notices colors. Any way, I will swap out with MY mountain bike to see if there is a difference. 

[.....]

4 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I already have several of the Fox shock on my mountain bikes. I will just .....   Hey!!  My wife would never know the difference!! I will swap with her bicycle.   ......       They are different colors.  Never mind! She notices colors. Any way, I will swap out with MY mountain bike to see if there is a difference. 

Hell yes! You sir could be the guinea pig that saves me thousands! I'll send you a can of paint, she won't notice. You better swap around and let us know, YOU would become a VERY valuable resource for your troubles. Just the fact that you wont need to buy a shock (therefor clouding judgement to justify the expense), put you in the lead for being believable. Top it off with the fact that you KNOW what to expect and are versed in the world of BIG COST for small gains. I wonder.... are we seeing the same moonshine still?

Edited April 21, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[jonm42]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You have MUCH to learn yet, if you think that price is a linear indication of quality

Nope. Thats not a problem for me. I've modded most of the cars I've owned, from a Camaro to an RS3. I understand that concept thoroughly  .

 

(And @ShanesPlanet, apologies for the nested quote reference.)

Edited April 21, 2020 by jonm42

[.....]

https://youtu.be/Je6hzDILAJs?t=50

I REALLY enjoyed the video at 50seconds.. I was wondering if a preloaded 'hop' was possible. I use this technique so much on bikes its ridiculous. Im eagerly awaiting the same ability to be shown on the v11. I have little doubt it is almost the same, but i havent seen it yet. Tbh, i havent been keeping up with the v11 release vids very well. My bias began after watching both wheels revealed. Im fancy myself an old kid, and the look of the sk18 caters to that. Of course, my strength is that of an old man, so the weight mattered too. I REALLY wanted my next wheel to be a LOONG range wheel, but range isnt a magic item. Neother the v11 of sks18 is a range monster, so focusing on how poorly they both do in that aspect is redundant.  Adding more bulk and batteries is NOT an advancement in tech. I will wait to see if battery tech changes, before I cater to range, at the cost of weight. I guess if range mattered and weight didnt, I could always mod a wheel and add tons of batteries. Of course, I wouldnt start with a wheel that sacrifices build quality, if i were assuming aftermarket mods were in its future.

[OneLeg]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Careful, you are making too much sense and going to piss off the 'v11 is superior' crowd. I'm reserving judgement, but it seems the die has been cast for most.  Pros and cons to both an open and closed design. A semi' closed design would trap water and you wouldnt even know it, should any work its way in. An open design wouldnt trap water and allows evaporation and cleaning.  Of course a completely sealed design doesnt get ANY water in it, but we know how well 'completely sealed' works on a lot of chinese products over time. I like the idea of being able to easily inspect parts that are MADE to wear out, like suspensions and all the bushings/friction surfaces contained within.

IP55 is not bad rating, I think only the V5 and the V11 have that rating from Inmotion products. There rest at IP54.  Most other vendors don't claim IP ratings, IPS has claims their products are IP68 (I think), which I very much doubt.

I have ridden a V5 for 2 hours in a "Amber storm warning", basically a monsoon, I didn't even bother covering.... it was fine.

IP55 But that means that V11 will be hard to dismantle and work with.  Still if Inmotion says it is IP55, it is real.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by OneLeg

[mrelwood]

 

9 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'd bet its crossing the point of diminishing returns by a mile, once you put $400 suspension on a euc. We already know what QC and quality to expect of the plastics and electronics.

My wild and uneducated guess is that the shock itself is not the most limiting factor in the first place. Again just a guess, but it’s just might be that the linkage bearings and the vertical sliding components would benefit more from an upgrade. Unless they manage to do that for the production model already.

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Neother the v11 of sks18 is a range monster

Inmotion just announced that they are switching to LG cells which provide a total capacity of 1500Wh. It’s no longer more than 54Wh short of the long reigned king of range, the 18XL, so depending on how they decide to go with the throttling and low voltage limit, it could have the properties to be an actual long range wheel even by today’s standards.

[LanghamP]

22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

those that don't know, investing in suspension is NOT linear. You will spend a SHIT TON of money to get little gains.

I've refurbished forks and rears, where you just take the shock apart and change the oil, and maybe replace some of the rubber o-rings. Some of these shocks are quite complicated with how the oil flows through them, but they are all very easy to service and take apart.

Basically, the old-fashioned "tube with washer with four holes drilled in them" don't exist anymore. Instead, you usually get a pyramid stack of washers along with a blow-off valve that leads to a different set of washers. Thus you have your high and low speed compression and rebound as presumably all this magic separates high and low speed dampening. I didn't try to figure it all out, but I'd guess once you bought a shock that looked like that, and the materials were precise and durable, then there's no need to buy anything more expensive.

I'd also guess a simple four hole oil-dampened shock is useless, just garbage, because it will completely lock over on big bumps as the oil can't get through the holes fast enough to allow the spring to compress.

Miguel DuHamel and Mick Doohan both mentioned the spring rate was the most important factor in a shock and that oil dampening was best left to its smallest amount. When the AMA allowed other riders to claim factory shocks, they were astonished to find most shocks didn't even have a compression circuit, lending credence that a skilled rider on a spring with no dampening whatsoever is the fastest way around a track.

Fox shocks allow rigid to no oil, and everything in between with easy spring changes. $400? I think you do get your money's worth.

[.....]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I've refurbished forks and rears, where you just take the shock apart and change the oil, and maybe replace some of the rubber o-rings. Some of these shocks are quite complicated with how the oil flows through them, but they are all very easy to service and take apart.

Basically, the old-fashioned "tube with washer with four holes drilled in them" don't exist anymore. Instead, you usually get a pyramid stack of washers along with a blow-off valve that leads to a different set of washers. Thus you have your high and low speed compression and rebound as presumably all this magic separates high and low speed dampening. I didn't try to figure it all out, but I'd guess once you bought a shock that looked like that, and the materials were precise and durable, then there's no need to buy anything more expensive.

I'd also guess a simple four hole oil-dampened shock is useless, just garbage, because it will completely lock over on big bumps as the oil can't get through the holes fast enough to allow the spring to compress.

Miguel DuHamel and Mick Doohan both mentioned the spring rate was the most important factor in a shock and that oil dampening was best left to its smallest amount. When the AMA allowed other riders to claim factory shocks, they were astonished to find most shocks didn't even have a compression circuit, lending credence that a skilled rider on a spring with no dampening whatsoever is the fastest way around a track.

Fox shocks allow rigid to no oil, and everything in between with easy spring changes. $400? I think you do get your money's worth.

I guess its all a matter of perspective. I've rebuilt many shocks, had to go thru shim stacks, had custom valves made. Its all relative.  Some would suspect that $400 to modify the action of 3" of travel is NOT getting your money's worth. Then of course, some think that $140 per inch is a great way to spend $400.  Obviously rider skill is the biggest difference.  I've yet to hear if the sks18 is using springs in the rear guide tubes. From the way Jack was avoiding answering my repeated question about it, I would suspect that NO, there is no spring assist. It really is too bad, as spring rates are another layer of adjustments and springs arent too complex.  You are preaching to the choir Langham, Ive got more shocks and springs around here, than vehicles. Altho, I don't have any of these mediocre air shocks. I'd imagine the theory behind those is both similar, simpler and cheaper.

[Planemo]

9 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I've refurbished forks and rears, where you just take the shock apart and change the oil, and maybe replace some of the rubber o-rings. Some of these shocks are quite complicated with how the oil flows through them, but they are all very easy to service and take apart.

I've rebuilt Fox MTB shocks a few times, and yes they are pretty easy, the only issue is recharging the nitrogen chamber which can be a right pain without the right equipment (and a nitrogen supply of course). The simple way is to remove the original non-tamper (haha) nitrogen plug and convert it to run a Schrader valve and simply pump with a fork pump to the required 250~300psi. Works fine, but does need doing every year or so depending on use. I have converted both my sons and my own Fox Floats this way. If I was to end up with an EUC equivalent I would deffo do the same.

[Planemo]

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 It really is too bad, as spring rates are another layer of adjustments and springs arent too complex. 

Theres no doubt about it, using good old fashioned springs is the best way of doing it - all the hardcore MTB's are still using spring/oil units but tbh the Fox type air shocks really are very good indeed. Mine and my boys certainly coped OK with the rigours of the downhills in Morzine last year and I'm a big fan of them for cost vs performance vs serviceability.

[LanghamP]

55 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

've rebuilt many shocks, had to go thru shim stacks, had custom valves made.

My concern is oil viscosity. I've changed oil out of forks when the temperature varied. One drips out very slowly while the other flowed out. On the same day mind you.

If the thickness of oil varies so greatly, then does oil dampening work all that well? 

My opinion of these suspended EUCs is that the suspension functions as a safety blow-off valve; you get one shot at not crashing when you hit a 5 cm tall bump with straight legs.

[.....]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Theres no doubt about it, using good old fashioned springs is the best way of doing it - all the hardcore MTB's are still using spring/oil units but tbh the Fox type air shocks really are very good indeed. Mine and my boys certainly coped OK with the rigours of the downhills in Morzine last year and I'm a big fan of them for cost vs performance vs serviceability.

Thats good to know, thanks! I hope they are a great compromise of price, useability, maintenance and ... SEXY! I just REALLY hope they incorporated springs in those rear guides. Imagine how much easier it would be to dial in a shock for 110lb AND 230lb riders, if you could simply swap a spring. Hell, they wouldnt have to even be oiled or valved, just springs that are set at a linear rate.

22 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

My concern is oil viscosity. I've changed oil out of forks when the temperature varied. One drips out very slowly while the other flowed out. On the same day mind you.

If the thickness of oil varies so greatly, then does oil dampening work all that well? 

My opinion of these suspended EUCs is that the suspension functions as a safety blow-off valve; you get one shot at not crashing when you hit a 5 cm tall bump with straight legs.

I surely hope the suspensions do this and more. I dont ride straight leg and my knees work. If all the compromises of owning a suspension on an euc, only gains me a little smoother ride, or a tiny safety increase, I'll be disappointed. I really hope that in conjunction with my knees and tire, these suspension add a layer of rideability that is noticeably improved. Useable preload, recognizable and repeatable dampening from higher object before bottom out, increased foot control as the wheel won't skip so much. These are some things I HOPE for. Now, i always expect a lot, but if a suspension is worth all the worry and cost and maintenance, it HAS to be a little more useful than merely a 2" bump safety valve. I get your point for sure, and perhaps the suspension will be more a safety thing and less a performance thing. Lots of riders prefer one or the other. It would be even better if it was BOTH, increase of safety and marked increase in offroad or extreme uses.

Thickness of oil matter so much that a LOT of time/money is spent in trial and error. Viscosity changes as it gets contaminated also. Any suspension that requires oil and valving, is maintenance and seal prone. I think you can dial in much better with oil and valving, but it comes at a cost of maintenance of course. I am by NO MEANS a suspension expert, but i do know enough to know that it can be VERY delicate and precise thing that requires maintenance. Of course, the lower your expectations and needs, the less precise it needs. No matter what, it's going to be fun to see something new and have another toy to tinker with. We aint talking tire and paint mods now, NOW its suspension mods and settings.  The nerd in me is drooling!

Edited April 22, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Useable preload, recognizable and repeatable dampening from higher object before bottom out, increased foot control as the wheel won't skip so much. These are some things I HOPE for. Now, i always expect a lot, but if a suspension is worth all the worry and cost and maintenance, it HAS to be a little more useful than merely a 2" bump safety valve.

Not sure about the Inmotion, but the Kingsong spring looks swappable and hence it can be as performance oriented and expensive, or as practical and cheap as you want.

I'd guess you could directly put one of your Fox Shocks in there and it'd work well.

What is interesting is we're essentially swapping the front forks for the rear suspension. The EUC behaves like the front wheel of a bicycle, but the suspension for it is a rear monoshock. Not sure about the In motion but I think it's a double shock?

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

What is interesting is we're essentially swapping the front forks for the rear suspension. The EUC behaves like the front wheel of a bicycle, but the suspension for it is a rear monoshock.

Doesn't really matter tbh. An air shock is an air shock. MTB fronts are often air as well, my Rockshox are. It's just easier for packaging and design to use 2 cylinders for the front rather than one (although it has been done). Can't comment on the Inmotion, I really haven't looked at it. IMO the KS design is far better though, with a proper rising rate linkage acting over a short stroke shock.