What next after KS-16X?

[NunoF]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The MSP and MSX 84v will beep at you at around 32 MPH. That is just a tiny bit faster than the 16X.
If you hit 31 MPH on the 16X you will get soft tilt back. If you push it harder you will get a 4 beep alarm and then hard tilt back.
If you hit 32 MPH on the MSX 84v you will get 5 beeps. You can push all the way to maybe 37-38 MPH with it beeping all the time (and you not hearing it) and at some point it will no longer be able to hold you upright and start dipping forward.

The only way to go forward is with a 100V wheel.
Nikola+
MSX 100v
Monster 100v

31 MPH is where the fun starts. It is nice to have the buffer so you can push towards 40 MPH.
If you want torque you can downgrade the FW on your 16X to 1.05.

So here is your answer:

Look at the drop down / option. They have a fast version with the 2000w motor.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msx-pro-100v-1800wh-battery-2500w-motor/

And good price as well.

 

Thank you for your perspective!

You said "The only way to go forward is with a 100V wheel."

The MSP is a 100V wheel regardless of which motor (2000W or 2500W), your comment seemed to imply that it wasn't.

-------

The MSX 100V is no longer available at eWheels. 

Yes, I was aware of the 2000W as I had mentioned in a previous post. I considered the 2000W option on the MSP, but with everything considered, I ended up going with the  2500W motor for more torque for off-roading and climbing steep hills. I don't mind the shorter range, I'll use my KS16X or the Monster for long rides.

As for max speed, I agree with you that the MSP 2000W would be the best option, but I'm still fairly new to EUCs, so while I'll love having the safety margin at 30mph (I should have that on the 2500W as well) it is perhaps a little too early to have a speed demon and be tempted to reach 40 mph, I have 3 kids (one of which was born last week...) and I want to be around for them a few more years

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The MSP and MSX 84v will beep at you at around 32 MPH. That is just a tiny bit faster than the 16X.

The 16X is said to be having quite an exaggerated speed reading. I think it was 18% that was mentioned. GW has been said to be precise with the speed and distance readings. That would make the difference much larger, as the actual top speed of the 16X would then be just 42km/h, 26mph.

I hope I remember the percentage wrong.

[NunoF]

33 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The 16X is said to be having quite an exaggerated speed reading. I think it was 18% that was mentioned. GW has been said to be precise with the speed and distance readings. That would make the difference much larger, as the actual top speed of the 16X would then be just 42km/h, 26mph.

I hope I remember the percentage wrong.

I use a Garmin GPS watch to track my ground speed (same watch I use in my tri-bike during my triathlon races) and the GPS watch tends to indicate a speed 2-3 Km/h slower than that indicated by Darknessbot when riding around 30-35 km/h, I will pay more attention and see if the gap increases at higher speeds. 

I doubt that the max speed is just 42 km/h, after thousands of miles on the bike  I developed a speed sense and I am (subjectively...) sure I have experienced faster than 42 km/h on the 16X. I have every reason to believe my garmin GPS is reasonably accurate (when on a stable stretch ) since my speeds are consistent with the race times.

So like you, I also hope that the % you quote above is wrong 

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The 16X is said to be having quite an exaggerated speed reading. I think it was 18% that was mentioned. GW has been said to be precise with the speed and distance readings. That would make the difference much larger, as the actual top speed of the 16X would then be just 42km/h, 26mph.

I hope I remember the percentage wrong.

Some might have that others don't. And yet we have discussed wheel rotation speed calculation and gps speed. unless you are riding in a straight line that you know how far is, there are no telling whic is more acurate. When I compare my KS16X it seems to be a 5% differance. But I have yet to test this between road distance posts. In the cuntry side we have while poles with 100m apart with distance to nearest town/city. 

My KS18L was a bit higher. but in the end it matter less I will get from A to B still. I simply don't get why people are so obsessed with a few kmh more.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Unventor

[Mike Sacristan]

Haha I would definitely be lagging behind the others if that was the case. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Haha I would definitely be lagging behind the others if that was the case. 

If the others are riding KS, all of their speed readings are exaggerated. If they are riding GW, they don’t have a top speed limit anyway.

I think a recent EUC World update added an option to engage an 18% correction for KS wheels. Seems that the amount of the exaggeration depends on the firmware version being used, but it seems clear that every KS wheel exaggerated the speed quite notably.

 To me there is a quite a big difference wether I’m riding at 46 or 50km/h. 42km/h even much more so. It isn’t “just a few km/h” or “just a tiny bit”.

[Mike Sacristan]

I haven't done speed comparison between my 16X and MSX or Petras Tesla for a while but I will do it again later this week.
I will post my findings in a new thread so we don't OT this one to death.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I haven't done speed comparison between my 16X and MSX or Petras Tesla for a while but I will do it again later this week.
I will post my findings in a new thread so we don't OT this one to death.

Does it matter?

But I think a new thread is a good idea. 

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

Does it matter?

But I think a new thread is a good idea. 

Of course it matters. I don't understand why you are asking that question? 

[NunoF]

So the answer to "What next after KS-16X" was a V3 100V GW Monster which arrived today (the MSP is only coming Late May/beginning June).

Went out for two rides with it ( a 20 km, and a 51 Km)  for a total of 71 km today, and so far I like it (don't love it yet...), here is my first day/first ride(s) experience (remember, I am a beginner, learned 2 months ago, with only 500 Km on a KS16X so far) :

Range: I charged the battery fully prior to the second ride, and after 51 Km the battery is at 46%. Average speed was 24.5 kph (Max 45 kmph) and spent most of the time between 15-35 Kph in a busy City itinerary, lots of stop signs, traffic lights, and some climbing uphill in a very windy day (20-30 km/h winds, both head and tail winds about 50%/50%). I don't know exactly my riding weight, but I estimated it to be about  (85-90 Kg). This is a very similar range (down to 50-45% battery) that I would get with my KS-16X. Difference was that with the Monster I felt much more confident pushing against the strong head-winds and keeping 30-35 km/h ). 

Riding Experience: Someone said in a Youtube review (I think it was Wrongway) that it feels like a Cadillac on the road, and that's pretty accurate. I really felt the weight and the inertia of the wheel, it's very stable and makes you want to go faster, bumps and holes are felt hard (not sure what tire pressure I have) but the wheel remains very stable. 

On the negative side, I felt more lateral wobbles at intermediate speeds than I was expecting, but there's a chance this particular wheel may have a problem, when I look down at the tire threads they wobble slightly left and right appearing to indicate that the wheel/tire is itself wobbling about the axis. I videotaped in slow motion and I'm going to send the footage to Jason/eWheels for them to say what they think. I definitely don't see that on my KS16X, the wheel is absolutely steady.

Finally, also as Wrongway mentioned in his review, the pedals dip quite a bit when turning, even in Hard mode, but it doesn't bother me at all, I actually like it. I was a bit suprised by how tilted the pedals are compared to the KS16X, I know that is known for the MSP, but I wasn't expecting it on the V3 Monster, it feels more tiring that the relatively flat stance on the KS16X, and it creates new pressure/pain points on the inside of my legs, also due to the bigger body of the wheel.

Waiting for the night to come to go test the new famous headlights...

[.....]

@NunoF check the tire at the beads on the rim. Maybe its just something missed and can be simply remedied by seating/re-seating again. It should be easy to see if it is IN FACT the tire or rim.  Man that was a quick jump from newbie to a monster! Very cool indeed, thanks for the update.

Edited May 6, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

On 5/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, mrelwood said:

The 16X is said to be having quite an exaggerated speed reading. I think it was 18% that was mentioned. GW has been said to be precise with the speed and distance readings. That would make the difference much larger, as the actual top speed of the 16X would then be just 42km/h, 26mph.

I hope I remember the percentage wrong.

 

On 5/4/2020 at 3:53 AM, NunoF said:

I use a Garmin GPS watch to track my ground speed (same watch I use in my tri-bike during my triathlon races) and the GPS watch tends to indicate a speed 2-3 Km/h slower than that indicated by Darknessbot when riding around 30-35 km/h, I will pay more attention and see if the gap increases at higher speeds. .

So like you, I also hope that the % you quote above is wrong 

My tests at different speeds also only showed a deviation of 2-3 km/h.

But with a CST-C1488 tire that has the same diameter as the original CX321 (1st batch).

The current Chao Yang H-5167 tire is about 8mm smaller in circumference as far as I can tell. That would mean 1 km/h less.

But that would mean only 3-4 km/h, far away from 18%.

[Chriull]

36 minutes ago, buell47 said:

 

My tests at different speeds also only showed a deviation of 2-3 km/h.

But with a CST-C1488 tire that has the same diameter as the original CX321 (1st batch).

The current Chao Yang H-5167 tire is about 8mm smaller in circumference as far as I can tell. That would mean 1 km/h less.

But that would mean only 3-4 km/h, far away from 18%.

This 18% were a number from @Seba's data pool for KS18L/XL.

I could not remember any number like this "published" for the 16x.

I tested it with a log for my 16S and came to about 11% for speed, 2% for distance.

No carving involved, but also not only straight tracks driven. Have to repeat this once again - have a nice 10 km straight track nearby. To see if there is some (and how much) intrinsic, systematic fault in comparing wheel speed with gps speed for random logs.

Just strange that distance and speed have different deviations...

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

19 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Just strange that distance and speed have different deviations...

Really? You of all people don't understand this? All right, I'll explain it to you.
The difference in distance is the random technical reason, the speed was intentionally changed in the firmware and the distance was forgotten to be faked.

This inconsistent behavior is a perfect fit for KS, isn't it?

Edited May 6, 2020 by buell47

[Chriull]

3 minutes ago, buell47 said:

You of all people don't understand this? All right, I'll explain it to you.

The difference in distance is the random technical reason, the speed was intentionally changed in the firmware and the distance was forgotten to be faked. 

 

... +1

Seems I try to hard to believe in mankind beeing good 

[Seba]

57 minutes ago, Chriull said:

This 18% were a number from @Seba's data pool for KS18L/XL.

I could not remember any number like this "published" for the 16x.

As I tested KS-16X with CX321, there was about 7 % of speed inflation.

[NunoF]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

@NunoF check the tire at the beads on the rim. Maybe its just something missed and can be simply remedied by seating/re-seating again. It should be easy to see if it is IN FACT the tire or rim.  Man that was a quick jump from newbie to a monster! Very cool indeed, thanks for the update.

Thank You/You're welcome @ShanesPlanet! The tire seems to be well seated on the rim. But I have limited mechanical skills myself so I may be missing something. I sent eWheels the slow motion footage of the tire spinning with the slight wobbling noticeable when viewed from above.  I'm hoping eWheels can help.

[.....]

@Nunoput the wheel on its side while powered off. Take a pencil or stick and hold it close to the side of the tire towards the tread on the sidewall. Try to brace your hand so the stick doesnt move.  Spin the wheel and note if the tire gets closer and further with each rotation. This is called checking lateral 'runout'. The amount of total movement is runout. Same thing in auto industry when setting up differentials. Expect to see some.  Now do the same thing with the stick aimed at the side of the rim where it meets the tire. Is it more/less/same as what you saw before? The differences in these for runout, would be a calculation of the TIRE runout(less a negligible amount, due to sidewall height vs rim height  from the center of the wheel).  The runout at the rim would be the rim runout. The total runout at the tire is.. total runout. While doing this, also visualize a point on the tire and try to note if it seems to hop or look higher where it meets the rim.  It wont hurt to put a little water with dish soap where the tire meets the rim(little groove area, and air it up to max psi. You can also let ALL the air out and do this THEN air back to max. Technically I cant tell you to overinflate it, but rumors say you can go much more but shield your eyes just in case.  ANyhow, ALL of this will help assist you in checking runout on a rim, runout on a tire and if the tire has hop to it. At least this kind of testing is near free, especially if you have plenty of soap/water and an air pump. The water solution is simply to help the rim bead seat. Dont use so much it fills the tire. Think of it as lubing something when you dont want to use  so much as to mess up the sheets . My 18L arrived improperly seated. Its common and not a big deal IF you 'fix' it. Usually its hard to miss as your wheel hops when you ride, coinciding with the spot of the tire that isnt seated fully. Easy to miss by just glancing at it tho. Most tires do have a minimal amount of 'acceptable' hop/runout, but it should be very slight.  If it seems excessive rim runout, its likely a bent rim. I assume these spin on an axle bearing. Dont quote me on it, but I'd think a bent axle would present itself as a statically offset problem. A 'loose' axle could appear as runout, but you could easily provoke this by grabbing the wheel (turned OFF) and just pulling the rim side to side. If its loose, youll feel it move. Dont let it bite your fingers!  Good luck, hopefully my novel didnt bore or mislead anyone. Keep us posted!

Edited May 6, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[NunoF]

13 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

@Nunoput the wheel on its side while powered off. Take a pencil or stick and hold it close to the side of the tire towards the tread on the sidewall. Try to brace your hand so the stick doesnt move.  Spin the wheel and note if the tire gets closer and further with each rotation. This is called checking lateral 'runout'. The amount of total movement is runout. Same thing in auto industry when setting up differentials. Expect to see some.  Now do the same thing with the stick aimed at the side of the rim where it meets the tire. Is it more/less/same as what you saw before? The differences in these for runout, would be a calculation of the TIRE runout(less a negligible amount, due to sidewall height vs rim height  from the center of the wheel).  The runout at the rim would be the rim runout. The total runout at the tire is.. total runout. While doing this, also visualize a point on the tire and try to note if it seems to hop or look higher where it meets the rim.  It wont hurt to put a little water with dish soap where the tire meets the rim(little groove area, and air it up to max psi. You can also let ALL the air out and do this THEN air back to max. Technically I cant tell you to overinflate it, but rumors say you can go much more but shield your eyes just in case.  ANyhow, ALL of this will help assist you in checking runout on a rim, runout on a tire and if the tire has hop to it. At least this kind of testing is near free, especially if you have plenty of soap/water and an air pump. The water solution is simply to help the rim bead seat. Dont use so much it fills the tire. Think of it as lubing something when you dont want to use  so much as to mess up the sheets . My 18L arrived improperly seated. Its common and not a big deal IF you 'fix' it. Usually its hard to miss as your wheel hops when you ride, coinciding with the spot of the tire that isnt seated fully. Easy to miss by just glancing at it tho. Most tires do have a minimal amount of 'acceptable' hop/runout, but it should be very slight.  If it seems excessive rim runout, its likely a bent rim. I assume these spin on an axle bearing. Dont quote me on it, but I'd think a bent axle would present itself as a statically offset problem. A 'loose' axle could appear as runout, but you could easily provoke this by grabbing the wheel (turned OFF) and just pulling the rim side to side. If its loose, youll feel it move. Dont let it bite your fingers!  Good luck, hopefully my novel didnt bore or mislead anyone. Keep us posted!

wow! Thank you very much @ShanesPlanet, , this is truly very helpful information and great troubleshooting guidance. I did exactly as you suggested above, fixing the pencil with duct tape on the body of the Monster to make sure the tip was fixed. Rim runout is about 1mm, total runout (as you say rim + tire) measured on the tire) is about 2mm. Interestingly, the runout appears a lot more than these measured 2mm when I watch the tire threads from above, either riding or when I just hold the wheel up and let it accelerate to max speed until it cuts off. I have even made a video of it (per eWheels request as they have promptly answered my cry for help). Could it be that the threads itself are not even and parallel to the end of the tire and that they induce an illusion of a greater wobble than there is? There is a wobble/runout for a fact, as in certain perspective angles (between the line of camera sight to wheel longitudinal axis) , you can clearly set the camera at an angle to see a gap between the wheel and the body of the EUC appear and disappear. As this is an "angular" distance it's hard to measure because it depends how far the view point is, but again, subjectively it "feels" greater than the objective runout measurements. As part of this process also realized that the edge of the rim was dented apparently by some kind of tool used to replace the tire. Surprising to see this in a new wheel (Hoping it's new..). Also sent the photo to eWheels and I'm waiting for their reply, 

I have also deflated, reseated,  and re-inflated the tire, forgot about using the lube, I mean..., the water/soap  ..., and yes I didn't want to make it to messy as I was doing it in the living room... and then did the runout test again, no obvious difference. 

I went out for a spin at lunch time, as the wind hadn't picked up too much yet (freaking sea breeze here is mad strong) and went to the smoothest road I could find. I still feel a minor lateral vibration (not a real wobble like a braking wobble) that today seemed to get better at higher speeds (I cruised between 35-50 km/h for about 15 Km). 

In a way it feels silly to send a wheel back for this minor lateral vibration, it doesn't compromise control, but interferes with the riding experience, I definitely do not feel that in my KS16X at the same speeds.

I'm wondering if I should just try to install a new tire and see if it goes away? I'll have to upgrade my mechanical skills considerably to replace a tire on an EUC...

I'll post relevant updates, especially as I hear back from eWheels on next step(s).

 

[.....]

You cannot use the tread as a good reference for anything but 'tread runout' itself. The way tires are made, tread variances are sometimes common and VERY expensive to avoid. Balancing and laser cutting tires for performance, IS NOT part of the euc price equation. Also, a tire can definitely deform by just being left in one spot under minimal weight for too long. Anyone with soft street tires on a motorcycle, has known this when they forget to jack a bike up off its wheels for the winter and go for a ride. If its as minimal as you say but it seems mostly at the tread area, I would suggest riding it at safe speed for a little bit. Maybe air it up a little more than you normally would. You could also leave the wheel in a slightly warmer "but safe" environment, with the tire stiffly inflated.  Does the rim runout seem to coincide with the markings from the tire change? If ride quality is poor and the rim is bent, I would suspect its simply, the rim is bent. If its a new wheel, you should be happy and if the seller is helping, they may know MUCH more than I possibly could, so let THEM guide you. Ewheels has seen so much more than I ever will. They want you to be happy and dont want to waste money on shipping either. Feel confident knowing youll be taken care of, just be patient. Just remember, they dont build 'em and are also putting out fires they didnt start.  As always, be careful with anything you are unsure of. Keep your dealer in the loop, BEFORE you try something that may void a warranty. You wont find me suggesting to measure or even look closely at a tire during unloaded free spin while powered on. And definitely dont assume I know a damn thing about what im saying.

*fwiw, i noticed quite a bit of rim runout on my near new wheel (KS18L). I just chalked it up to very gracious tolerances for spec on rim balance/straight from factory. In the end, it rides just fine for me. Luck of the draw pretty much.. Same with cheap tires.... roll those dice.

Edited May 6, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[NunoF]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:45 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

"so let THEM guide you. Ewheels has seen so much more than I ever will. They want you to be happy and dont want to waste money on shipping either. Feel confident knowing youll be taken care of, just be patient. Just remember, they dont build 'em and are also putting out fires they didnt start. "

Yes, you are totally right. eWheels has been impeccable, super quick and thorough follow-up. (I don't get any discount by mentioning them here, just happy to praise good service, to be balanced in my feedback though, I wouldn't mind if they would check the wheels for this things that can be spotted in one minute and even gave them a test ride before shipping them over, at least as an option).  I've sent them the videos and they agree there is a very clear wobble. Since there is no obvious budge on the tire after deflating/inflating and reseating it, they decided to send me a new package with a completely new motor, rim, wheel and pedal setup to make the replacement effort as simple as possible to a mechanically challenged customer as myself. I should get the parts Saturday and we will go from there. I'll keep posting.

[NunoF]

On 5/6/2020 at 1:15 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

@Nuno.....Good luck, hopefully my novel didnt bore or mislead anyone. Keep us posted!

Just to close the story of my brand new GW Monster V3-100V that I had just received from eWheels with a laterally wobbling wheel:

eWheels said it wasn't uncommon for some monsters to have a slight runout on those big 22' wheels, it's almost impossible to have a perfect rim/tire.

In any case they acknowledged that it appeared to be more pronounced in my case. It seemed a combination of both rim runout and tire runout. Combined the total runout made the wheel wobble and cause an annoying lateral vibration/wobble most noticeable at intermediate speeds.

Jason promptly offered to send me a new wheel/motor package if I was up to the task of replacing it myself, which I did.

With the great help of Drew from eWheels, and a link to a video of eWheels replacing a motor/wheel in a Monster similar to mine.  It only took me about one hour of effort.

The new setup runs very smooth and there is essentially no runout and/or wobble, went out for a spin and it felt like I was hovering over the road, man what a difference!

I also took a good look at the Monster inside (after hearing so much about their famous QC, and I was well impressed with how carefully assembled and neat it was).

 

 

 

[NunoF]

On 5/3/2020 at 3:12 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

The MSP and MSX 84v will beep at you at around 32 MPH. That is just a tiny bit faster than the 16X.
If you hit 31 MPH on the 16X you will get soft tilt back. If you push it harder you will get a 4 beep alarm and then hard tilt back.
If you hit 32 MPH on the MSX 84v you will get 5 beeps. You can push all the way to maybe 37-38 MPH with it beeping all the time (and you not hearing it) and at some point it will no longer be able to hold you upright and start dipping forward.

The only way to go forward is with a 100V wheel.
Nikola+
MSX 100v
Monster 100v

31 MPH is where the fun starts. It is nice to have the buffer so you can push towards 40 MPH.
If you want torque you can downgrade the FW on your 16X to 1.05.

So here is your answer:

Look at the drop down / option. They have a fast version with the 2000w motor.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msx-pro-100v-1800wh-battery-2500w-motor/

And good price as well.

 

Mike thank you so much and sorry for the delayed reply/thank you note from me, BTW I truly enjoy your youtube channel which I subscribe.

 

so I have already received both a new Monster V3/100V and an MSP "high-speed"/2000W, I am very happy with both, and I absolutely love the MSP High-Speed, just came back home from my first 10 mile ride after receiving the wheel this morning, I'll post separately describing first impressions with more detail, but wanted to acknowledge your kind post and spot on suggestions. Max speed (measured by lifting wheel up until it cuts-off) is 61 mph / 98 km/h which is pretty impressive. I am used to my KS16X or even the monster now, and this MSP I just immediately found myself cruising it comfortably between 45-55 km/h which I wouldn't be able to in the KS16X, and felt it had enough torque for me, didn't leave me wishing I had ordered the high torque version. (In fact that's the one I ordered originally, but changed the order to the high speed version).

 

 

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, NunoF said:

Mike thank you so much and sorry for the delayed reply/thank you note from me, BTW I truly enjoy your youtube channel which I subscribe.

 

so I have already received both a new Monster V3/100V and an MSP "high-speed"/2000W, I am very happy with both, and I absolutely love the MSP High-Speed, just came back home from my first 10 mile ride after receiving the wheel this morning, I'll post separately describing first impressions with more detail, but wanted to acknowledge your kind post and spot on suggestions. Max speed (measured by lifting wheel up until it cuts-off) is 61 mph / 98 km/h which is pretty impressive. I am used to my KS16X or even the monster now, and this MSP I just immediately found myself cruising it comfortably between 45-55 km/h which I wouldn't be able to in the KS16X, and felt it had enough torque for me, didn't leave me wishing I had ordered the high torque version. (In fact that's the one I ordered originally, but changed the order to the high speed version).

 

 

Hi! No worries and thanks for letting us know how things worked out! Happy to hear that you are enjoying my vids as well.

I'm glad my post was of help and I am looking forward to reading your impressions. I am sure many others are curious about the MSP High-Speed version.

 

[travsformation]

On 5/4/2020 at 9:47 AM, Unventor said:

In the cuntry side we have while poles with 100m

I've always enjoyed the cuntry side.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Just be thankful I refrained from throwing word play on poles into the mix...