What next after KS-16X?

[NunoF]

I am a beginner, only learned 6 weeks ago, and decided to buy two wheels to start with, a KS-14D that I used as my learning wheel (and still love to ride it), and a KS-16X that became my daily commuter and play wheel. I have since logged approx. 200 miles on the KS-16X and absolutely love it. Nevertheless, I find myself too many times comfortably riding at 40-45 km/h which is a little too close to the limit for the KS-16X for my taste (I have really nice flat wide roads where I live) . I want to buy a bigger and faster wheel. It will obviously be a Gotway,  I have narrowed down my options to 3 wheels: MSX 84V, MS Pro (2000 W motor)  or MS Pro (2500 W motor). I am inclined for a 100 V wheel, which puts the MSX 84V in third place, and my preferred for now is the MS Pro 2000 W (for higher speed and better range compared to the more powerful 2500 W motor version). Coming from a (2200 W Motor) KS-16X, do you guys think I will feel the loss of power to a 2000 W motor?, or will the bigger wheel offset that difference, since bigger wheels should be more efficient. I would welcome your advice , especially if you also have/had a KS-16X and a MSX/MS Pro.

Edited April 20, 2020 by NunoF

[UniVehje]

38 minutes ago, NunoF said:

Coming from a (2200 W Motor) KS-16X, do you guys think I will feel the loss of power to a 2000 W motor?

I don't have that setup to compare but the answer will still be most likely no. These motors cannot be compared the same way IC engines can. That rating is just what they can do continuously without over heating. Peak power is what you feel. And to be more precise, you will mostly feel wheel size and algorithm. It is rare to feel the limits of the motor power on those wheels. You have to try some crazy inclines to do that. You would feel more sluggish acceleration on the bigger wheel no matter the watt rating. And increasing voltage doesn't increase the feeling of power, it can only affect top RPM and thus higher top speed. If you go for a 100V MSX or MSP, the biggest difference is the tire and ability to remove safety features and thus reach higher speeds closer to the edge. Of course at 100v they can safely run on higher RPM, so it's not a big problem. You will feel like it reacts slower and you will need to use bigger movements to command the wheel. The increased power will be a benefit only if you were  running out of it before. 

[DjPanJan]

What next after KS-16X? 

Coming from a (2200 W Motor) KS-16X, do you guys think I will feel the loss of power to a 2000 W motor? / No

 I have since logged approx. 200 miles on the KS-16X and absolutely love it. / not enouch ride 1000+ miles to get into deeper. Belive me you first big crash waiting me hapend after 1300Km 

I think like you i ougrow V10F i understand all is weak for me etc. etc. Then crash coming and back me to reality and return respect from EUC.

200 miles you know how ride backwards , one leg , on mud ,on sand , how jump curb ,how emergency brake, ride slowly 2-3 miles speed ,now you know what i think. 

W8 with purchase.

MSP / MSPS MSX is not direct compare to 16X . MSP/X/S is bigger "cruiser" is not universal like EUC like 16X. U-Stride test range MSP if you ride hard and fast is 21 miles you fine with this?   

Maybee sell 14D and take Nikola 100V you not write you weight if you are fat take MSP no compromise. MSPS is MSP and old MSX 100V motor is not tested nobody know how this hybrid overheat or what problems can apear.

For me personaly buy MSP i have 16X too and want switch my old V10F test/tell us. MSP vs 16X range on low speed under 25mph. Climbing abilities how nimble is compared MSP/16X .

How bad/good is MSP handle compared to 16X.  How bad good is MSP pedals vs 16X pedals. What next after KS-16X?  is hard to answer is based only on you preference not many racional solutions. Ks16X is almost perfect for me except tragic waterproofing.

 

[NunoF]

Thank you! I forgot to mention in my original post that I saw a wheel (MSS - MSuper Sport) in a video (link below) by the YouTuber WrongWay, that seems to be a modified MSPro with more power and range compared to the MS Pro. But I can’t find this wheel here in the US. Does anyone know if this wheel will be available in the US soon? On the eucservice.com they seem to also ship to the US. Anyone with experience ordering from Europe? Sorry too many scattered questions in one post. 

 

[NunoF]

16 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

not enouch ride 1000+ miles to get into deeper

Totally agree, and didn’t mean to say that 200 miles is anything much, was just to explain that I am a beginner ! I want to keep and continue to ride both the KS14D and KS16X, I’m fortunate and lucky to not have to sell them to buy another wheel or wheels , I just look forward to experiencing the feel of different wheels, and as I said in my original post, I want a bigger safety margin at the higher speeds. I’m also a hang-glider Pilot and general aviation pilot  (25 years , more than 3000hrs logged, was in national team, ..., not bragging, almost killed myself several times in avoidable accidents ) and know well enough that these things are inherently dangerous and it’s just a question of when my first crash will be, but after becoming a father of two kids and a third on the way, I want to continue to enjoy flying, and now EUCs, but manage risk with bigger safety  margins, thus the point about the next wheel is, higher speed with higher safety margin (bigger wheel, higher voltage, higher cut-off). Thanks again, your thoughts and advice were very useful.

PS - my weight is 75 Kg

Edited April 20, 2020 by NunoF
Add relevant content

[DjPanJan]

75Kg  im 119 Kg (full geared)🐷🐷🐷

Money money money what if something fail you be send MSS to Poland from  San Francisco Bay Area expect 150 dolars postage and 50 days ship delivery. Next 50 days back to you.

Yes you can purchase withou warranty this is solution. 2400 dolars no waranty  ritch man .

Air delivery expensive and battery problem. Ship is slow. This no have simply solution. Eucservice MSS work this way you order  MSP directly from gotway they modded to MSS you pay for job and parts. After this eucservice send to you adress.  Everithing shiping money is from you walet.

Good luck and many happy miles.  👍

[Chriull]

13 minutes ago, NunoF said:

I want a bigger safety margin at the higher speeds.

The main value you are looking for is the "lift cut off speed". No idea were to get this numbers reliable as they are dependend of actual battery voltage.

So if it is given for a wheel e.g. at 70 km/h and the wheel had 95V battery voltage it will be ~74 km/h at 100,8V (full battery) or ~58 km/h at 79.2V (empty battery).

The second value important for this approach would be the "steepness" of the max torque over speed limit line(1). This steepness is determined by the motor coil resistance and internal battery resistance. (So the bigger the battery pack the better!)

Advertised motor wattage (in most cases) does not give _any_ clue to determine the "safety margin at higher speeds".

So imho the best approach is to compare lift cut off speeds. For this calculate this speed for max battery voltage v_lift_cut_off_max_battery_voltage = v_measured_lift_cut_off/U_measured_battery * U_max_battery to get an comparable value.

And get the biggest battery pack version available.

(1) https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?tab=comments#comment-107721

 

[NunoF]

19 hours ago, Chriull said:

The main value you are looking for is the "lift cut off speed". No idea were to get this numbers reliable as they are dependend of actual battery voltage.

So if it is given for a wheel e.g. at 70 km/h and the wheel had 95V battery voltage it will be ~74 km/h at 100,8V (full battery) or ~58 km/h at 79.2V (empty battery).

The second value important for this approach would be the "steepness" of the max torque over speed limit line(1). This steepness is determined by the motor coil resistance and internal battery resistance. (So the bigger the battery pack the better!)

Advertised motor wattage (in most cases) does not give _any_ clue to determine the "safety margin at higher speeds".

So imho the best approach is to compare lift cut off speeds. For this calculate this speed for max battery voltage v_lift_cut_off_max_battery_voltage = v_measured_lift_cut_off/U_measured_battery * U_max_battery to get an comparable value.

And get the biggest battery pack version available.

(1) https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?tab=comments#comment-107721

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer and great information! I learned a lot and will be looking for that info. Also great link on the anatomy of an overlean.

[mrelwood]

The naming of the models may be a bit confusing due to some of them not being official factory models. MSS is the MSP with a 100V 2000W MSX motor, the one you mentioned in the first post.

 Can’t really offer insights on which one to get though. I weigh 100kg and ride the 84V MSX, and I would definitely benefit from the MSP, since I can overlean the MSX when jumping/pushing for an explosive standing acceleration for steep off-road obstacles. But at 75kgs I don’t think I would even have the same issue.

What i do know though is that with the MSP you could damn sure climb up a tree with your weight!

[Afeez Kay]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The naming of the models may be a bit confusing due to some of them not being official factory models. MSS is the MSP with a 100V 2000W MSX motor, the one you mentioned in the first post.

 Can’t really offer insights on which one to get though. I weigh 100kg and ride the 84V MSX, and I would definitely benefit from the MSP, since I can overlean the MSX when jumping/pushing for an explosive standing acceleration for steep off-road obstacles. But at 75kgs I don’t think I would even have the same issue.

What i do know though is that with the MSP you could damn sure climb up a tree with your weight!

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

MSS is the MSP with a 100V 2000W MSX motor,

Not quite accurate. MSS is a MSP with a completely different motor to any motor used by Gotway. Plus it has addition Samsung batteries. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Afeez Kay said:

 

Not quite accurate. MSS is a MSP with a completely different motor to any motor used by Gotway. Plus it has addition Samsung batteries. 

Really?! They truly sourced another 2000W 100V motor for the MSS? Do we know any specs on how it differs from the MSX motor? Free air speed, magnet width, max torque, etc?

[Unventor]

@NunoF you are in a dilemma that many that have the KS16X. It is a great wheel in almost all aspects except 2. 1) weatherproofing, and 2) top speed. 

There is not really anything that matches the behaviour of KS16X and that have a much higher top speed. Also if you want to got fast I would recommend that you need to look at a 18" solution. This means normal that torque does down and weight is high. So it it will feel slow of the starting line. As for speed there is only one brand to consider and that is GW. 

Top speed and maks range do not real mach up well either since wind resistance increases a lot as you go faster, which drains the battery.

Should you really buy a new wheel for a few mph more or wait for a technology change that changes the screen? It is a hard question. I can only say I had 2 accidents at 30kmh and 25kmh and it hurts even if you are geared up. The faster you go the more energy you have to face and less time to prepare. 

So in future we might even see GW no going faster but riding safer. It seems safe and comfort are the new trends.

Personally if you are to go faster than 45kmh I would use a mc. 

[Afeez Kay]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Really?! They truly sourced another 2000W 100V motor for the MSS? Do we know any specs on how it differs from the MSX motor? Free air speed, magnet width, max torque, etc?

Watch this: 

This wheel is only available on eucservice.com and erides.co.uk

Edited April 21, 2020 by Afeez Kay

[NunoF]

6 hours ago, Unventor said:

@NunoF you are in a dilemma that many that have the KS16X. It is a great wheel in almost all aspects except 2. 1) weatherproofing, and 2) top speed. 

There is not really anything that matches the behaviour of KS16X and that have a much higher top speed. Also if you want to got fast I would recommend that you need to look at a 18" solution. This means normal that torque does down and weight is high. So it it will feel slow of the starting line. As for speed there is only one brand to consider and that is GW. 

Top speed and maks range do not real mach up well either since wind resistance increases a lot as you go faster, which drains the battery.

Should you really buy a new wheel for a few mph more or wait for a technology change that changes the screen? It is a hard question. I can only say I had 2 accidents at 30kmh and 25kmh and it hurts even if you are geared up. The faster you go the more energy you have to face and less time to prepare. 

So in future we might even see GW no going faster but riding safer. It seems safe and comfort are the new trends.

Personally if you are to go faster than 45kmh I would use a mc. 

Thanks, appreciate your insights and experience. Regarding your comment "Personally if you are to go faster than 45kmh I would use a mc." , I don't really want to go much faster than 45Km/h, but want to have a bigger safety margin at that speed, in the KS16X 45 km/h feels too close to the cutoff when other factors like slope, wind, bumps,  together with battery charge left could push you over the voltage limit and have a cut-off. I agree that technology should soon evolve to more safety and comfort while keeping top speed where it already is, I'd go for that. 

[mrelwood]

22 hours ago, NunoF said:

want to have a bigger safety margin at that speed, in the KS16X 45 km/h feels too close to the cutoff

The top riding speed is not the cutoff speed though, on any wheel. All other wheels but GW are limited by software, and the actual safety buffer size varies. You can test the actual cutoff speed by lifting the wheel up in the air and letting it speed up to maximum. For example 18XL and 16X are both limited to 50km/h, but they have different free air speeds. If you hit a bump at 50km/h, the wheels will still do their best in trying to balance and keep you upright, all the way up to the free air speed. They do tilt you back immediately though.

[UniVehje]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

For example 18XL and 16X are both limited to 50km/h, but they have different free air speeds

Do you happen to know what they are and how do they compare to others? It would be interesting to know what would a theoretical top speed be on Kingsongs if the mandatory tilt back were removed. 
edit: I could easily test mine, but I worked 12 hours and opened a 🍺 already. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by UniVehje

[NunoF]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 For example 18XL and 16X are both limited to 50km/h, but they have different free air speeds. If you hit a bump at 50km/h, the wheels will still do their best in trying to balance and keep you upright, all the way up to the free air speed. They do tilt you back immediately though.

Thank you @mrelwood, very valuable info. How can we know/measure the "free air speed" for each wheel? 

[NunoF]

10 hours ago, UniVehje said:

"I could easily test mine, but I worked 12 hours and opened a 🍺 already. "

Wise man @UniVehje! In aviation we say there are either Old Pilots or Bold Pilots, there are no Old Bold Pilots..., probably applies to EUCs as well...

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, NunoF said:

Thank you @mrelwood, very valuable info. How can we know/measure the "free air speed" for each wheel? 

1. Turn off the motor disengage option in wheel settings.

2. Switch to view the speedometer.

3. Lift the wheel up from the ground. Be ready to either: A) keep it in the air for at least 10 seconds, or refinish your floor!

Watch the speedometer as the motor starts running, and take note of the highest speed it reaches before switching off. (Most apps also have a “Max speed” that will record the highest speed automatically.)

 Note that the speed varies based on the battery level, so charge the wheel to 100% first.

 Unfortunately I don’t remember any KS free air speeds, but I’m pretty sure the 18XL was higher than the 16X.

[NunoF]

I started this topic 10 days ago, after all your input, reading threads and watching countless youtube reviews, I think I have finally answered my own question "What next after KS-16X?".

I'm going to order two wheels:

1)  MSP (the 2500W option) as the "fun" wheel, for the torque, off-road, steep climbs. I was really torn between the 2500W VS 2000W, due to the higher speed and range of the 2000W, but 30 mph is fast enough for me, and the 2500W should handle it safely. And for range, 20-30 miles sounds short, but it's more psychological, and it's plenty for my daily work commute,  I'm getting a second wheel for the long runs. I thought about the KS18XL but I'm afraid that would feel "just like a bigger 16X?" and would still be afraid of getting too close to 30 mph.

2) V3 100V Monster as the long range road cruiser.

Thanks for all the input and perspective from everyone!

 

 

[mrelwood]

Quite a pair of wheels you got coming there!

On 5/1/2020 at 7:11 PM, NunoF said:

I thought about the KS18XL but I'm afraid that would feel "just like a bigger 16X?" and would still be afraid of getting too close to 30 mph

To me the 18XL didn’t really feel like the 16X any more than the Nikola does. Very different wheels, and even I wouldn’t hesitate to get up to 30mph with an 18XL. It behaves and handles like a stable 18” wheel that it is.

[Arbolest]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:11 AM, NunoF said:

... 30 mph is fast enough for me, ...

2) V3 100V Monster as the long range road cruiser.

 

If you're interested in a long range cruiser, and 30 mph is fast enough for you, may I ask why you decided not to go with the 84v Monster instead? It should provide you with more range than the 100v version, it should be the same price (or cheaper!) and you don't have to shy away from hitting 30 mph on it...

[NunoF]

12 hours ago, Arbolest said:

 

If you're interested in a long range cruiser, and 30 mph is fast enough for you, may I ask why you decided not to go with the 84v Monster instead? It should provide you with more range than the 100v version, it should be the same price (or cheaper!) and you don't have to shy away from hitting 30 mph on it...

Great question, the 100V has indeed lower range compared to the 84V , but it's still long enough for me. I may only make use of the full range once or twice a year.  And while I did say that 30 mph "is" currently fast enough for me, there is a chance that with time I will feel more comfortable going a little faster, and the 100V does have a slightly higher reported max speed (38 mp for 100V  vs 32 mph for the 84V) giving me a little more room and safety in those low 30s mph, I believe (Am I wrong?) 

[NunoF]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Quite a pair of wheels you got coming there!

To me the 18XL didn’t really feel like the 16X any more than the Nikola does. Very different wheels, and even I wouldn’t hesitate to get up to 30mph with an 18XL. It behaves and handles like a stable 18” wheel that it is.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience with the 18XL, Well, I was trying to "just" buy two new wheels, not three! now I will still have to keep the 18XL in my wish list...man this is an expensive hobby...  ;),  J/K, I was tempted for the 18XL as I love my 16X, but having to pick two new wheels, it felt like the MSP and the Monster would provide me with the greatest range of diversity of performance and different riding feel. Will get the Monster this week and the MSP at the end of the month according to Jason/ewheels. In the meantime I'm riding 20-30 miles a day on my 16X.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

The MSP and MSX 84v will beep at you at around 32 MPH. That is just a tiny bit faster than the 16X.
If you hit 31 MPH on the 16X you will get soft tilt back. If you push it harder you will get a 4 beep alarm and then hard tilt back.
If you hit 32 MPH on the MSX 84v you will get 5 beeps. You can push all the way to maybe 37-38 MPH with it beeping all the time (and you not hearing it) and at some point it will no longer be able to hold you upright and start dipping forward.

The only way to go forward is with a 100V wheel.
Nikola+
MSX 100v
Monster 100v

31 MPH is where the fun starts. It is nice to have the buffer so you can push towards 40 MPH.
If you want torque you can downgrade the FW on your 16X to 1.05.

So here is your answer:

Look at the drop down / option. They have a fast version with the 2000w motor.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msx-pro-100v-1800wh-battery-2500w-motor/

And good price as well.