Cut off & lost confidence

[Sugarat]

Hi All, 

  I've been a huge EUC fan ever since I got my InMotion V5F+ about 2.5 years ago.  I've done almost a thousand miles on it and love it to bits.  

BUT..  A few months ago I was on my way home from work on the wheel. I was just overtaking a pedestrian on the pavement when out of nowhere, it cut off on me. No warning sounds, no time to react, it just died, for the first time ever. I did a faceplant straight into the pavement and almost broke my arm. I ended up in hospital the next day but thankfully after about a week, the pain died away and I could use my arm again.  It was a close call. 

To this day I am unsure what caused the problem. There was a light rain which I thought may have tricked it into shutting down, but after some tests it doesn't seem to turn off when the wheel is in motion, so it can't have been a bit of water on top of the wheel.  I suspect maybe the battery was cold, as it had been outside for a while. 

I have run 'Diagnostics' in the app, and everything passes.  But now, I have lost confidence to use the Unicycle.  What if it does it on me again and I break my arm this time? That is something I cannot afford..  Was it a one off, or is something faulty, and will it do it again? 

For me, this now seems like a big risk. But I do miss using the unicycle terribly.  What does one do in such a situation??  Is there a wheel out there that has additional circuitry to protect against cut offs? I'm not sure what to do now. 

Cheers

[RockyTop]

There are many factors that come into play. The V5f is a small, low powered, low speed wheel. Over time the batteries get weaker on an already low power wheel. In many cases we don't know how old the batteries were before we bought the wheel. Many cut outs occur while passing. We just don't realize how much power from the wheel that we just requested while already up to speed. I do not know  how much you weigh, but weight does make a difference. As you mentioned, temperature is a big factor. 

I suggest that it is time to buy a bigger battery wheel. The minimum sized battery that I will buy is about 840 watt.

 

[Sugarat]

Hi there.  This Inmotion Unicycle has a battery of 480wh I believe, so it seemed pretty chunky for my first wheel. I bought it brand new.  Wow, you wouldn't buy anything less than 840! That must give an enormous range.   The strange thing was that I didn't ask for a lot of power from the wheel, I just leaned forward a bit to overtake the pedestrian and it died.  

It's true, the only way to find out is to ride it with the battery warm and see if it throws me at the pavement again. I shall have to order more protective clothing I guess.

The quandry now is whether I spend a lot of money getting a wheel with bigger batteries when ultimately, any one of them may develop a fault and throw me off. So it's all a risk. 

 

 

[FreeRide]

Unfortunately as is often mentioned on this forum and others, you always have to be prepared for a fault. The electronics, software, and battery are critical for operation and your safety is totally dependent on that.  I work in these areas so I can tell you, do not trust your life to the level of engineering in an EUC. 

Unfortunately it is impossible to say what caused the cut out or if it was truly a cut out with is easy to confuse with other issues.  However Lithium Ion batteries are able to produce less power in low temperatures, so that could be a factor.  It is important to know what the temperature of the wheel/batteries really was, how long had you been riding before the crash, did you notice any sluggishness when you started off, what do you think your battery level was when you started.  After couple of years of use it is hard to know what the state of your battery is.  There is not much headroom on that battery pack.  Had you noticed you range decreasing? What is your charging protocol, and usage (how many miles)?  

It can be a tough thing to come back from, so you have to build up confidence again, but never think it will never happen again.

[onizukagto]

Oh I know this! Beginner myself, I've been riding my V5F for about 6 or 7 months now. First time it cut out on me was like 2 months ago. I was going down a slight incline and I leaned a bit too much with my right foot and suddenly... bam! I was body sliding and stopped shy of skidding onto the road.

Luckily I was wearing wrist guards, knew pads, helmet and riding jacket.  

Came away with a skinned elbow and a bruised left shoulder.

But yeah, after that I lost a bit of confidence, i didn't really blame the wheel and i was riding it close to 25km/h. The scary thing was that there really wasn't any warning, it tilted back for a few seconds before it cut off. 

I've hit the tilt back frequently but it always gave me time to react, that time it was far to short. 

if I had to guess why it like that, it's probably what Rockytop said, battery degraded. I've got almost 1050km... Actually tire trend aren't that great either now that I think about it

I don't push the unit so much now, I had to start slow and build up my trust in the unit where I can ride it around 20km/h now. 
I get to work slower, but I feel a bit more safer but also a lot more frustrated because that speed isn't what I'm comfortable with.

I think mentally I realised it's not the unit's fault, its me growing out from 15 to 20kn/h riding speed.

So I'm just waiting to see what's my next unit should be that will let me cruise at 25 to 30km/h.

The new "beginner/intermediate" suspension wheel from inmotion and kingsong that seems get the veteran bristling, looks perfect..... Haha

[mrelwood]

Getting a tilt-back regularly on any wheel is not something that should be ignored. On a small battery low powered wheel it’s supposed to tell you that your riding habits do not match the wheel’s abilities. I’m sorry you had to learn this the hard way. I agree with @RockyTop in that the riding styles in general have changed during the last few years in a way that a small battery low power wheel simply can’t achieve.

 My own riding style has gotten pretty aggressive during the 11k km I’ve ridden my MSX. I’m well aware that getting a wheel with a noticeably smaller battery or smaller power would be the end of me.

CCR and Tina Turner said it so well: It’s the BIG wheels that keep on turning! 

[RockyTop]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

CCR and Tina Turner said it so well: It’s the BIG wheels that keep on turning! 

 Thank You!!!!       I never would have made that connection.  I just always pictured Tina on a river boat smoking pot (proud marry) while watching the paddle wheel (big wheel) turn. I never could figure out whether the reference to "rolling down the river" was 1) drifting down the river in a boat with wheels. OR   2) Rolling a joint while drifting down the river. 

Now it just mean ridding my EUC beside the river. 

[someguy152]

21 hours ago, Sugarat said:

I shall have to order more protective clothing I guess

were ur wrist guards flexmeters?

Edited April 19, 2020 by someguy152
question answered

[Sugarat]

On 4/18/2020 at 7:15 PM, FreeRide said:

Unfortunately as is often mentioned on this forum and others, you always have to be prepared for a fault. The electronics, software, and battery are critical for operation and your safety is totally dependent on that.  I work in these areas so I can tell you, do not trust your life to the level of engineering in an EUC. 

Unfortunately it is impossible to say what caused the cut out or if it was truly a cut out with is easy to confuse with other issues.  However Lithium Ion batteries are able to produce less power in low temperatures, so that could be a factor.  It is important to know what the temperature of the wheel/batteries really was, how long had you been riding before the crash, did you notice any sluggishness when you started off, what do you think your battery level was when you started.  After couple of years of use it is hard to know what the state of your battery is.  There is not much headroom on that battery pack.  Had you noticed you range decreasing? What is your charging protocol, and usage (how many miles)?  

It can be a tough thing to come back from, so you have to build up confidence again, but never think it will never happen again.

Freeride - thanks for that.  It's true, very difficult to know what may have caused the cut off.  Although I'd ridden for about 5 minutes beforehand, my hunch is that the batteries were cold and for whatever reason, the Li-Ion just couldn't supply the juice.

That's golden advise - always be prepared for a fault.  If I resume my wheeling, I shall order decent protective gear including a full face helmet.  You don't know how nasty these things can be until you're thrown at the concrete.  

Thanks

[Sugarat]

18 hours ago, onizukagto said:

Oh I know this! Beginner myself, I've been riding my V5F for about 6 or 7 months now. First time it cut out on me was like 2 months ago. I was going down a slight incline and I leaned a bit too much with my right foot and suddenly... bam! I was body sliding and stopped shy of skidding onto the road.

Luckily I was wearing wrist guards, knew pads, helmet and riding jacket.  

Came away with a skinned elbow and a bruised left shoulder.

But yeah, after that I lost a bit of confidence, i didn't really blame the wheel and i was riding it close to 25km/h. The scary thing was that there really wasn't any warning, it tilted back for a few seconds before it cut off. 

I've hit the tilt back frequently but it always gave me time to react, that time it was far to short. 

if I had to guess why it like that, it's probably what Rockytop said, battery degraded. I've got almost 1050km... Actually tire trend aren't that great either now that I think about it

I don't push the unit so much now, I had to start slow and build up my trust in the unit where I can ride it around 20km/h now. 
I get to work slower, but I feel a bit more safer but also a lot more frustrated because that speed isn't what I'm comfortable with.

I think mentally I realised it's not the unit's fault, its me growing out from 15 to 20kn/h riding speed.

So I'm just waiting to see what's my next unit should be that will let me cruise at 25 to 30km/h.

The new "beginner/intermediate" suspension wheel from inmotion and kingsong that seems get the veteran bristling, looks perfect..... Haha

Funny thing is, I'm a gentle rider - in fact, I've never had a single tilt back on the V5F. I didn't even know it could! I thought it would just beep at you if it's getting upset. 

Yes the new wheels with suspension looks pretty sweet.   My problem is that I've lost a bit of confidence, and the 'solution' seems to be to go and spend a huge amount of money on these next level wheels with huge batteries.. They 'ain't cheap!

 

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Sugarat said:

...  You don't know how nasty these things can be until you're thrown at the concrete.  

...

Isn't that the truth. One can imaging it, but man hitting the pavement is a different level of knowing.

So glad you are OK though, and yes, probably something with a bigger battery is a good idea, weather and situations where a couple of things happen at once and the battery/motor just can't handle it.  The suspension wheels are very exciting, can't wait to hear the real reports, I'm tempted to pre-order, but I don't need another wheel so I'm going to wait for the reviews.  They are top dollar, but not top range which I would like.  I think KingSong is busy working on a higher capacity model right now    The IM I think is probably good enough for their typical customer base, and I'd consider it if the reports are really great.  

I think you could get something much less expensive, even a V8F would be good step up, or the V10F, since you are a gentle rider.

Edited April 19, 2020 by FreeRide

[alcatraz]

I had a cutout too but it was a high speed cutout. It still felt like the machine betrayed me because I had done thousands of km on it at that speed and power output. After contemplating the reason, in the end I had to give in to the possibility that I pushed it too far.

The way I try to deal with safety now is I do my OWN power margin assessment. I don't rely on the manufacturer to do it for me. I do a pickup speed test and if it says there 44km/h I set at max speed for 25km/h even though it's a 30km/h machine. Because I need that margin.

I also have a new euc thats a bit more powerful. That does 67km/h and I know I can do 45km/h on that with MY margin, but I'm happy to ride it like I feel like to at around 30-35km/h.

Maybe this sort of thinking helps you to set some limits to keep the thing from cutting out. It's not perfect but it's something. You can still get a cutout from overleaning but the high speed ones are usually the most body harming ones.

[Meserias]

you just surpassed that V5F ....
just buy new wheel with more headroom for your present skill and body weight.

my KS18XL has plenty of available power witch I rarely use
(but sometime I use it every bit of it.....never cut-off on me)

Edited April 24, 2020 by Meserias

[Sugarat]

You are right in that I have surpassed the V5F+.. I definitely need a better wheel.  I'm liking the look of the Gotway MSX, so we shall see.

I would like to hope that the V5F is still a good and reliable wheel though.  At the moment I will put my cut off down to the fact that I had left the wheel outside on a cold day, so the battery was too cold to be safely ridden. I was going very slow when it cut out, so it's not like I exceeded usual speed, but the battery was no doubt frozen. 

 

[LorenW]

2 hours ago, Sugarat said:

You are right in that I have surpassed the V5F+.. I definitely need a better wheel.  I'm liking the look of the Gotway MSX, so we shall see.

I would like to hope that the V5F is still a good and reliable wheel though.  At the moment I will put my cut off down to the fact that I had left the wheel outside on a cold day, so the battery was too cold to be safely ridden. I was going very slow when it cut out, so it's not like I exceeded usual speed, but the battery was no doubt frozen. 

 

I would agree that you likely have exceeded the limits of the V5F+, I have owned that wheel for a while and have had many others at this point, the most powerful being my Nikola+.

I weigh 210lbs and it is very easy for me to exceed to power of the V5F+ if I ask too much of it, including stopping too fast. Great care needs to be taken over bumps and with quick acceleration or deceleration.

If you are very very careful, you should not run into issues, but this is not a wheel that you can push too hard.

The Nikola+? I can give that all I have and it doesn't bat an eye. But I also rarely go above 25-28mph... I like to never get too close to the limits of a wheel... Especially as a "heavier" rider. Better to have more power than you need or ask for.

There are many wheels that you can choose from which will be solid and dependable performers. Time for an upgrade! 😁

[Camenbert]

I have more experience on ebike, there batteries dies often at 3 yo, so 2.5 years + cold can be a reason.

Can you say Sugarat how you charge the wheel, as soon as you're home, or just before leaving ?

[Tryptych]

This really sucks, I can only imagine how I would feel.  The only comfort I can offer is to insult your wheel: the V5F is one of the weakest wheels you could ride, it's a toy compared to some of the others out there.  Get rid of it. Time for you to upgrade your wheel and your protective gear, then you can ride at 50% of what the wheel is capable of and not have to worry.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Tryptych

[MetricUSA]

You had the wheel for 2.5 years, I don't know how many kilometers you have on it but the batteries are getting old...the more you ride it the more wear...the more you need to stay on your toes...just saying... Some day you will have to retire that battery, when it does die... With that battery do you get about 20 km distance???

Edited May 10, 2020 by MetricUSA

[PatrickD]

Sugarat,

How cold was it outside (to better judge just how cold the batteries were) and what was the battery voltage at the time?  Just trying to get more information to consider the situation.

Thanks!

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, Tryptych said:

This really sucks, I can only imagine how I would feel.  The only comfort I can offer is to insult your wheel: the V5F is one of the weakest wheels you could ride, it's a toy compared to some of the others out there.  Get rid of it. Time for you to upgrade your wheel and your protective gear, then you can ride at 50% of what the wheel is capable of and not have to worry.

 

ouch. This actually hurts since just last week my V5F threw me off after ascending a sloped kerb ramp, luckily i wasn't going fast and jumped off on to my feet. V5F tumbled and wobbled away before hitting a side wall of the road i was going along. 
It dented the rim and knocked the tire off, i can see a flat patch on the tire where it hit the edge of the "kerb slope" . Guess its the end of the V5F after 1137km.
Was hoping to hold out until the V11 came out, but i guess fate said i need a V10F and not go for first batch of anything. 

Anyway, goodbye "toy", hello V10F.

[alcatraz]

2 hours ago, onizukagto said:

ouch. This actually hurts since just last week my V5F threw me off after ascending a sloped kerb ramp, luckily i wasn't going fast and jumped off on to my feet. V5F tumbled and wobbled away before hitting a side wall of the road i was going along. 
It dented the rim and knocked the tire off, i can see a flat patch on the tire where it hit the edge of the "kerb slope" . Guess its the end of the V5F after 1137km.
Was hoping to hold out until the V11 came out, but i guess fate said i need a V10F and not go for first batch of anything. 

Anyway, goodbye "toy", hello V10F.

I got a used tesla and it being a high speed narrow tire wheel the rim looked like crap. I got it cheap so fine, I'll attempt to work it out.

Anyway, I took the tire off and just hammered the rim back into true. Radial untrue can't really be fixed but lateral true can be achieved. If you do this just support the rim so the hammer blow doesn't have to over stress the motor/bearings/axle.

You could attempt to just center the tire the way the rim is now. Spin it by hand, notice any low or high spots, deflate and repositon and inflate. Repeat until it's centered.

Edited May 11, 2020 by alcatraz

[onizukagto]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

I got a used tesla and it being a high speed narrow tire wheel the rim looked like crap. I got it cheap so fine, I'll attempt to work it out.

Anyway, I took the tire off and just hammered the rim back into true. Radial untrue can't really be fixed but lateral true can be achieved. If you do this just support the rim so the hammer blow doesn't have to over stress the motor/bearings/axle.

You could attempt to just center the tire the way the rim is now. Spin it by hand, notice any low or high spots, deflate and repositon and inflate. Repeat until it's centered.

Thanks for the tip! I am fond of the V5F and plan to fix it up. However it gave me a good excuse to wing it pass the missus and upgrade to a V10F.  

So when the kid get a little bit older (maybe 1 or 2yrs old?), i'll find some time to fix it up and use it as a spare wheel or let the little man practice on it or what. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by onizukagto

[alcatraz]

Ok cool.

If you can get an adjustable wrench to grab the rim then use that to true the rim. I couldn't on the tesla so I had to resort to knocking it back.

Aluminium isn't supposed to be bent (it cracks) but if you're left with no options then it's worth a try.

[Tryptych]

On 5/10/2020 at 10:21 PM, onizukagto said:

Was hoping to hold out until the V11 came out, but i guess fate said i need a V10F and not go for first batch of anything. 

Anyway, goodbye "toy", hello V10F.

That's a big upgrade! Make sure you upgrade your protective gear as well, be careful with the new speed, and Congrats!

[Silk]

Hey man don’t worry too much about a bruise ego in front of pedestrians happens to all of us. Talk about bruise ego! I was riding my wheel like a bat out of hell leaning hard, scraping pedal, jumping curves and sh*t showboating like a monkey in heat when he see’s banana! My wheels seems to be more prone to stuttering after a jump. I have an idea about the low power situation however it’s been happen more frequently on a full charge. And going over bumps I’ve loss total confidence to even pick up a little air as it would stutter and I’m going down. SEE YA LATER MR.EGO!!!