From a Segway-Ninebot One S2 to Kingsong 16X

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

If I remember correctly, it was the same with me at the beginning, sometimes it worked, sometimes not. Now it works every time if I don't pull too far before I let go of the button. I once sprayed the rail and the locks with Teflon spray and that helped. But I can't imagine that this spray still works half year later. Maybe everything is still very new and crooked in the beginning and needs time to wear out?  

Edited May 13, 2020 by buell47

[George Iliev]

Great. I need to wear out components in order for them to work as expected in the first place. That's "planning for the future" manufacturing for ya.

If I had to put all my experience into one sentence until now, it'll go something like: " I love that wheel, and hate that it's made in China."
If KingSong told their specs to Ninebot, and let their design team handle the bodywork, QA and software that would be a MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN.

Edit: It feels like I'm riding a really nice wheel's working prototype...

Edited May 13, 2020 by George Iliev

[bcarp]

Thanks for the writeup. I have also moved from an S2 to the 16X a couple of months ago & have found the same as you with the nimbleness of the S2 now a distant memory. The 16X just can't accelerate, decelerate or turn as fast as the S2. I would feel comfortable riding the S2 in crowds (but have never done it & would never do it), but would never contemplate any such thing with the 16X; it's just too unwieldy.

I ride my tyre pressure at 40psi. I weight about 80kg & I found that lowering the pressure meant I was hitting the rim during off-roading, which is where I do most of my riding.

I think you have a faulty trolley handle. I have found no such problems with mine. Just when lifting it up, make sure you get a beep from the machine to say that the wheel has deactivated before lifting the machine off the ground. I agree that the cut-off is not as quick & reliable as the S2, though.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I am always amazed about the high tire pressures with which most people ride offroad.

After 20psi at 80kg (with full gear) and bent rim I increased to 29psi. For me, however, the tire loses any advantage and so I have now settled at 25psi. So far the rim has not suffered any further damage and I am quickly on my way through the forest which is covered with thick roots and stones. Of course you have to counteract actively and not ride stiffly over the roots and stones. 

But 40psi @80kg...never, unless offroad means a flat gravel road. 

[bcarp]

21 hours ago, buell47 said:

But 40psi @80kg...never, unless offroad means a flat gravel road. 

No. Off-road means very off-road. I wonder whether there is a cultural difference as well. We Australians have traditionally found that Americans like their cars squishy (suspension & tyre settings) while Australians like like our cars much more firm. Does this carry through to how we expect the EUC to feel too? (And yes, I can see you’re in Germany.)

[George Iliev]

6 hours ago, bcarp said:

No. Off-road means very off-road. I wonder whether there is a cultural difference as well. We Australians have traditionally found that Americans like their cars squishy (suspension & tyre settings) while Australians like like our cars much more firm. Does this carry through to how we expect the EUC to feel too? (And yes, I can see you’re in Germany.)

I tried riding with tyre @ 40psi, but to be honest, the wheel seemed almost unrideable on uneven terrain such as poorly paved stone-cut road - Wheel jumped and hopped getting airborne almost every other bigger chunk of stone, and felt like I was riding on a knife's edge... I'm a bit fat also, so u'd think rider weight should actually help counter that but no dice...

[Phong Vu]

@George Iliev
Is it really that bad? The build quality I mean  

I really consider to buy 16X, waiting for the new 2020 batch.

Never own a ninebot before, but I had a V8 and enjoy it, both durability and build quality.
So, is it either Ninebot is really good (based on your impression), or Kingsong really bad (compare to Inmotion)

[WI_Hedgehog]

On 4/13/2020 at 8:22 AM, George Iliev said:

First impressions - blindfolded and clueless, I'd still know this was manufactured in China. Comparing it to the ninebot experience, it's almost eye-watering: the original King Song app feels like a cheap knockoff of the Ninebot OEM one, the manual is written with Google translate (at best) and the wheel is beeping like crazy when one is trying to set it up with the oem app. Menus, settings, led modes, all of it, is also translated by the same clueless algorithm, which gave birth to the sad sad manual.

Wheel is solid, fits together nicely, has no noticeable gaps, but it "feels" hollow in places, meaning it feels like the plastic is a bit thin, or there's no support behind it... IDK how to explain it, it's just a feeling, although I read around, and my friends tell me it's a pretty sweet and solid wheel, that holds good even in some pretty serious crashes. LEDs are not-so-premium looking in person, and the handlebar, although brilliant in design, feels like something that'll give in sometime in the near future.

Experience-wise for someone coming from a 14" 11 kilo nimble AF wheel, It's on the heavy side, but (to my surprise) manageable for 4 storey historical building (read 4 meters height of a single storey) stairways climb. TBH One of my biggest concerns upgrading my wheel from the Ninebot One S2 to some of the big guys was that I was a bit worried that i won't be able to lug it around, but it's doable I think. Surely it'll get easier with time and training. Keep in mind I'm 220 pounds, and I have a good body strength.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 9:08 AM, George Iliev said:

  So.. LOG N:2 

  Initial impressions:

First thing's first: DUDE, that thing is bulky, and heavy, and clumsy. As I said, I live in a historical building with a really narrow doorway on the ground floor, and we had to step outside like a couple having a really heated word exchange, if you know what I mean. KS went outside, and the door almost slammed me in the face before I could catch up. That bulkiness and clumsiness kinda extends to the ride also. Since the pedals are more than a bit, or even more than a couple of bits higher than the S2, when I'm on it, and I try to readjust a foot position the whole thing doesn't like it. It's like a grumpy donkey not happy about me kicking it in the ribs. Not really trying to throw me off, but swinging a little bit left-to right. Again - I'm pretty sure that I'm the problem (like it's ever theirs in a relationship, am I right guys?), but never the less - it's something to look up to, if you're coming from a small-factor light wheel as I am. 

On the previous end note - the whole setup feels nothing like a small-factor light wheel. The S2, being 11 kilos in weight and 14", 2.125 tire, was really subordinate to my wishes, and kinda read my body-language, and I could turn it around people and obstacles like swinging a featherball racket, and not really thinking about it - it just happened naturally. Kingsong 16X is a totally different story. This thing is like trying to swing an 12-18 kilo kettlebell - You can, but once you do, it takes almost twice the effort to change your mind mid-way. Also, being so heavy and tall and bulky it keeps rattling between your legs, and as a long-married man, two kids, I've forgotten what it is to deal with that violence.

  Build quality of the KS 16X:

The LEDs are horrible. I've disabled them, and I think I would be activating them only @ night if need rises, just to increase other drivers awareness of my presence, because stop lights of  the ks suck IMO, because being so low and narrow, they're easily overlooked. In person, and during daytime they look pretty cheap to me.

 Motor cutoff worked only in like 40% of the time. I have the habit of stepping off the wheel, grabbing it and taking it right off the ground, often even before full stop, if I'm going into a store, up a ladder or climbing a high sidewalk edge. I needed to do that 4 times today, and the handle disabled the motor only one of those times. When trying to replicate it I couldn't figure out why it wasn't cutting off. One time it happened, (the firs one I think) I was shocked that picking it up it didn't chirp, and I heard the wheel spin up. "Please Decelerate". Instant shame from the bystanders. I put it back on the ground and leave a skid mark on the office floor. More shame. Push the handle physically down, try to lift it again - same result. I extend the handle from it's rest, put it back in to "click", and when it did - the cutout worked next time. It was an instant feeling of "Yep. It's Chinese all right.".

On 5/13/2020 at 4:10 PM, George Iliev said:

Pedals are squeaky, and uncomfortable to open with your feet. Even when you do it, they feel cheap, because they "fall" to their open places from a firmly closed position which makes them feel "unsmooth" and "chinese". I'm going to be 3D project/printing a solution to that, that I might be offering to you guys if they turn out good. My mudguard tore half off today from a single contact with a box in the trunk of my car. It was brand brand new, not even a scuff on it. Horrid design, with a horrid weak-point on each side. 

My current net conclusions - the 16x needs European software developers and better industrial design department, and Europe plastics supplier. My ninebot was LITERALLY built as a tank. It took plunges from 2 meters free-fall to a hard concrete, cutouts with 24-25 kph, rolling for tens of meters after, hitting whatever was there, and never had a SINGLE piece fall or anything more than a moderate (not even big) scuff or dent. KS 16x - fell from a standstill to a decked terrace  - scuffed deeply the faux leather sidepads, and scuffed deeply the plastic next to it, put it inside my trunk and tore the mudguard in half, and hit a door with it, causing a scuff on the front. B****, Please. It's a 2k$ wheel compared to a 5-600$ roomba. Do it right the next time around.

 

King Song: Wayyy a minute....you want stronger wheel wif more plastic, but weigh less? You no take math?
You no like LED? You serious? You joking? We have best LED! Not space ship like Inmotion! You cwazy. Go take math class. (We add more LED...)

Gotway: He thinks their plastic is bad?

Veteran EUC: We build EUC like tank--you buy from us. We make best ECU. (No steh-we-oh. We no add steh-we-oh.) You like more better our wheel.
Uh, no, we no ship yet...no worry, we make good ECU, berry strong. You like.

Inmotion: King Song rip off our suspension idea!

[George Iliev]

6 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

King Song: Wayyy a minute....you want stronger wheel wif more plastic, but weigh less? You no take math?
You no like LED? You serious? You joking? We have best LED! Not space ship like Inmotion! You cwazy. Go take math class. (We add more LED...)

Gotway: He thinks their plastic is bad?

Veteran EUC: We build EUC like tank--you buy from us. We make best ECU. (No steh-we-oh. We no add steh-we-oh.) You like more better our wheel.
Uh, no, we no ship yet...no worry, we make good ECU, berry strong. You like.

Inmotion: King Song rip off our suspension idea!

@WI_Hedgehog, I literally laughed out loud.   
But it's true they'd say it, which kinda makes it also sad.  

On 5/19/2020 at 5:14 AM, Phong Vu said:

Is it really that bad? The build quality I mean  

I really consider to buy 16X, waiting for the new 2020 batch.

Never own a ninebot before, but I had a V8 and enjoy it, both durability and build quality.
So, is it either Ninebot is really good (based on your impression), or Kingsong really bad (compare to Inmotion)

@Phong Vu.... IDK what to tell ya mate. First things first: I've never owned, seen or touched an Inmotion, so I can't comment on that in no way what-so-ever.

And now on the question at hand about the 16x:
Do I love the wheel - Oh, yes I do. Is it A LOT MORE of a wheel than the One S2? You can bet your ass it is. 

Is it as gracious, polished, refined and culturalized as it's European predecessor? OH, GOD NO! 

I've done my best to describe both materials and feeling of the two products in this thread, look for the long posts, but if I've had to summarize in a single sentence or two...:
One S2 feels and reacts (for what it's made*) as a high-grade, high-price European tech product. It feels like holding a new Galaxy device - it's refined, great materials, and oozes classiness and astounding build quality. The design (looking back at it now, 1.5-2 years later) probably looks a bit dated (LEDS especailly) when looked at up close, but while you're riding it, or encountering it on the streets it looks like a thing from the future - minimalistic, pure and... well, classy. Low key, but high-tech and classy. It had the same depth of it's white color as my Audi A5 S-line, which I liked ALOT. They seemed like they were a kit, and when you take it out of the trunk most of the people stared

Now about the Chinese rebel. 
Well, that's it. It is a rebel. It feels like a rebel. Feels like a bully, that spent a couple of years in a correctional facility, never got a good education or the better-high-school-or-college treatment and is not university smart, but IS street smart. It's not a white-collar device. Nothing about it "feels" low-key. It's big, heavy, huffs and puffs, and if I had to imagine both of those devices like people,

 The One S2 would be an average-looking hipster-y 20-something y.o., that has an iPhone, dresses lively and with upper-class shirts and sneakers, lives and works @ some flashy tech-giants office, working off from an expensive office, but is rather cowardly, and has never taken a single risk in his life bigger than not wearing his sunglasses on the morning starbucks-coffee run. 

KS16x on the other hand is a rather broad-shouldered bully, dressed in cheap, worn out and teared in places jeans, with an old rocker leather jacket, making a living off of reselling cars and hand-watches of questionable origins. With fluff dice and a CD hanging on a chain from the rear-view mirror. He'll have a 2-3 y.o. rooted android device, with cracked screen and pirated Cooked ROM installed. If you're the kind of employer that can influence him, he will (do his best to) follow you, and maybe try to be more civilized in order not to embarrass you in public, but will not always succeed in doing so. On the other hand, if you ask him to show you some fun time, oh god you'll have a blast that night. It'll not be especially (or at all) safe, you will feel un-secure, the situation will not (always) be in your control but you'll be grinning (most of the time, that is. In the other times you'll be saying really fast "...oh-shit-oh-shit-oh-shit-oh-shit..."). 

I aimed for a short description but I guess I blew it, didn't I?
Long story short - it's cheap. It has poor engineering design and horrid construction-stress optimization. It has ABSURDLY CRAPPY oem software. It has HORRID documentation, support, manufacturer feedback/documentation (they released a firmware with notes " test test test" <- and that was the whole text, and their firmwares are always looked at with more than a grain of salt, because nobody knows - are they stable? Is it a beta? Nobody knooowss...), etc, etc ....

And I love it.

The one thing that bugs me the most amongst all others is that I don't trust it in rain. A KingSong representative, when asked by me if the wheel is water-resistant or at least - weather resistant, replied, and I quote: "Safe in rain. Maybe not heavy rain not know medium rain where you live home, but rain is safe except some rain. Here a video of how we test riders riding in river with it for short time. [ video is 5 sec long, people making a circle in an feet-finger deep puddle ]. See? Water safe, but don't ride in heavy rain. Heavy, force rain not recommended". 

As I said - it's pretty chinese mate. 

[Phong Vu]

3 hours ago, George Iliev said:

they released a firmware with notes " test test test"

LOL, as a software engineer, I'm literally laughing to tear
=)) sound like some thing a developer would type while testing his own code, even QA team has better input than that =))

So we can confirm QA is not existed at Kingsong?

Anyway, a little surprise, since 16X has been blame for water resistant and high speed cut-off issues.
This is the first time I heard the complains about overall build quality.
Might have a second thought on this... since the Inmotion V11 is only month away.

Also, based on your impression, Inmotion wheels might meet your expectation  

[George Iliev]

4 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

So we can confirm QA is not existed at Kingsong?

Yeah, I think China has a law against QA. Surely it seems that way when viewed from the outside.

4 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

LOL, as a software engineer, I'm literally laughing to tear
=)) sound like some thing a developer would type while testing his own code, even QA team has better input than that =))

Would you imagine, right? - Could you ever imagine such a text even leaked to the general public in accordance to a new firmware of Galaxy S20 Samsung in example? Now can you imagine this firmware being pushed with notifications and the whole shebang - Update to the new flimsyware 2.0.2, patch notes - test test test. Absurd. Cheap. Chinese. 

It's a mockery and disrespect of a (highly) paying, early adopting, small-market customer. And if it continues, or they don't fix that behavior, soon, they will either remain a "custom" company or be non-existent soon (read 5-10 years here).

4 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

Anyway, a little surprise, since 16X has been blame for water resistant and high speed cut-off issues.
This is the first time I heard the complains about overall build quality.

Well... People ride Gotways here, and from what I hear they're made from melted down action mans and wrapped in tomato shipping cellophane. And build quality is not exactly right, as a description. I rant about the materials quality and selection. I rant about the construction design itself - there is not a single place inside the wheel, that has a honeycomb strengthening in it, it has large hollow parts, sidewalls are thin, screws are having their heads flattened after 2-3 unscrews - all of those are possible weak points during a hard fall, and just touching it feels like you're touching the playtoy of a 2-3 year old 20-25-30 years ago. I don't know if you recall the feeling to mind, or if I'm describing it properly, but it reminds me of my childhood, when we had toys inside snacks, and they were made from KingSong, apparently.

The feeling of the wheel is cheap. It taps hollow, the plastic's transparent at places. The handle is solid itself, but when you pick the wheel up it moves and rattles around ever-so-slightly (*not during ride, so almost unnoticeable), but it's there. And it FEELS CHEAP AS FUCK. The build itself is solid. The wheel is heavy. It's not feeling like it will fall apart. If it's standing 1 meter away from you it will look like a tank. You won't notice anything loose or threatening (besides it's design). That's until you get up close. @buell47 has a guide about dustproofing your 16x and you'll see the gaps he's sealing in order to prevent dust. You'll see the headlamp design. And from what I read, gotway's worse. And I can't imagine how that's possible. The common belief is that KingSong is safe, well-built, and that's why I went with KS16x. If that's the top of the market, I'd steer clear of everything below that. 

[WI_Hedgehog]

If you want safety, Segway->Ninebot->Xiaomi is probably the best built, most refined, safest line of products. Their firmware and hardware, in many regards, is very advanced and stable. (To the point they may force an Over-The-Air update that eventually slows your machine to walking speed. Ninebot has forever lost my business over this, their competition has gained it.) They have fantastic battery management technology, and while their software doesn't report it, one can get per-cell voltages over Bluetooth.

If you look at safety alone, I'd estimate Solowheel->InMotion is a very close second in safety, as they make an incredible amount of really solid products. They're an innovator with the "hugest" amount of product development, greatly under-valued in the EUC world because they don't make the biggest, fastest wheels. The V11 is the most innovative wheel around, with batteries inside the motor housing, making great use of the otherwise unused space. If you think Segway has a great app, you should see InMotion's, because they by far have the best OEM app, and best looking EUC app anywhere. If one looks at the EUC as a complete product, InMotion has everyone else in the EUC market beat.

That means third place goes to Shenzhen King Song Intelligence* Technology Company, Limited. (*Kind of makes you wonder why they want you to side-load their app, doesn't it?) (Full disclosure: I'm a happy King Song owner.) King Song makes reasonably solid products with what I would call "a life expectancy of three years," which seems reasonable given how fast EUCs are evolving. Their slogan should be, "Anything InMotion can do, we can copy. (Except the app, we no copy the app. Where they get their programmers? NASA? They weely, weely smart.)"

Gotway: the briefcase of EUCs. The redneck of manufacturing. No-frills, no cares, no concerns, not even a mud-flap. If it works today it's good enough. Like American car manufacturers, they seem to make their money on replacement parts. They go fast. They break. You break. That's life.

Veteran EUC: Gotway's "former employee's" wet dream. If they really had to leave Gotway to build a Gotway EUC with reliability and style, that says a lot about Gotway. The only reason I even mention Veteran is because Gotway's quality is so bad they don't even put QC stickers on their wheels--not that Gotway might even fake a fleeting thought about quality, but that the sticker might hold them together longer. And that's what most of us want, a well-built fast wheel.

That concludes my opinion on EUC manufacturers, which some will find as valuable as what they paid for it.

Edited May 21, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[George Iliev]

Guess who's back? Back again... 

Back from a 32 kilometer offroad/onroad, gravel, mud, asphalt, hill and downhill ride with the 16x. >> https://euc.world/tour/591741649912250

So...

My KingSong is around 1100-1200 kilometers now, and I have a couple of takeaways from my time with it:

• It still feels like a chinese piece of tech. 
• it's engineering design, quality of materials and wobbliness and chinessnes (if that's a real word) of it make me distrust it in regards to water-proofness, durability and overall reliability. So far no problem with it, It's just a small voice in my head, saying to me: " 不要相信它。是中文。" 
• It's much more nimble, than I previously thought of it, once you get the hang of it. Of course, nowhere near as nimble as the ninebot.
• it's really stable at speed, once you have your balance perfectly at "one with the wheel"
• the Chao Yang tyre is amazing - carving, speed driving (mind you, I never go over 40-42 km/h)
• the mudguard design is horridly, disastrously stupid. On my third one already.
• Getting on and getting off of it still urk me, and I think it's due to the weight and I don't trust it as much as my ninebot one s2 when "starting" on a crowded alley or smth. 

Probably would type more, but it's midnight and I'm tired after making a 30+ km trip. Let's discuss that maybe?