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George Iliev

From a Segway-Ninebot One S2 to Kingsong 16X

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Just now, buell47 said:

I don't believe the 1.4 Control Board is bad, probably my board was broken from beginning and got more worse later. 

So you're telling me it's OK to roll back to the 1.4 board if it had no issues?

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

So you're telling me it's OK to roll back to the 1.4 board if it had no issues?

What does roll back mean, which version do you have now? V1.4 or V1.5?

If you have 1.5 I would not put in 1.4.

V1.5 has slight changes/improvements. I can't say if my enormous differences are also between a new 1.4 and 1.5, because it is possible that my original V1.4 (1st. batch) board always had a fault.

Edited by buell47

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22 minutes ago, buell47 said:

What does roll back mean, which version do you have now? V1.4 or V1.5?

If you have 1.5 I would not put in 1.4.

V1.5 has slight changes/improvements. I can't say if my enormous differences are also between a new 1.4 and 1.5, because it is possible that my original V1.4 (1st. batch) board always had a fault.

My dealer has a 1.4 (first batch) that the wheel came in with. He said there hasn't been any issues with it what-so-ever, as this was his personal wheel. Never the less, before I bought it, I asked him to change the control board to the newest one (1.5), as I've read somewhere that first batch boards had some kind of issues. So he changed it, and shipped me the wheel, and bipiy-bopity-poof - Now I've got issues with the 1.5 (new) board. So I've discussed it with my dealer, and he said he'll contact KS to exchange the board, as that one is clearly malfunctioning, and we're talking now should I roll back to 1.4 until the new 1.5 ships, or should we directly swap the two new boards. 

PS.: Also, apparently, my current board has the 1.08 firmware... IDK if that has anything to do with it. 

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@George Iliev

I hope your wife lets you keep writing your diary? Very well written and fantastic humor! :thumbup:

I hope your wife does not get jealous when I follow you?  :wub::roflmao::cheers:

Believe me, you'll love your wheel after you get used to it, but maybe not while carrying!  :efee612b4b:

 

45 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

So he changed it, and shipped me the wheel, and bipiy-bopity-poof - Now I've got issues with the 1.5 (new) board. 

The standard question...has your dealer made the Bluetooth patch and also calibrated it correctly? 

 

50 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

So I've discussed it with my dealer, and he said he'll contact KS to exchange the board, as that one is clearly malfunctioning, and we're talking now should I roll back to 1.4 until the new 1.5 ships, or should we directly swap the two new boards.

If you have no work with that and your dealer does, why not? I'd still put in the new 1.5 later though. The glued side pads do not become more beautiful from constant disassembly. :(

My recommendation is always the same before a defective control board is suspected. Bluetooth patch and a precise calibration. If there are still problems replace the board. If it's so bad that you can't ride, then all you can do is roll back to 1.4 and wait for 1.5. Then do the same again. 

 

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13 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I hope your wife lets you keep writing your diary? Very well written and fantastic humor! :thumbup:

I hope your wife does not get jealous when I follow you?  :wub::roflmao::cheers:

  She'll be overridden with aggression and jealousy, but that's only going to happen if she ever pays any attention to me and my personal interests again, which, most likely won't really happen. As I said, married, two kids (well one and almost two, read further;), and thus we have plenty of reasons to just stare at the walls like vegetables in the brief moments our life gives us a second or two time off. Don't get me wrong - we love each other like nothing else in the whole wide world, it's just a tough shit with a 2 y.o. bashing the hell out of our home, and another one on the way ( 8 months pregnant, the second tasmanian devil is on his way ), bashing the hell of her internally... What could I say. Livin' the dream. 

19 minutes ago, buell47 said:

The standard question...has your dealer made the Bluetooth patch and also calibrated it correctly? 

Nope, he didn't patch it - KingSong said it's not needed. He has calibrated it, and when I got it and felt the problem, I've made another calibration, and I've used a bubble level to do it.

I guess I know the next instruction: Do the patch. 
Anticipating that obvious answer... : Where do I find the patch, and do I need 5 year course @ Hogwarts and a Mandarin language degree to do it, or is it straight-forward? Mind that I'm pretty well versed in technology and software, being previously occupied in lightweight programming, web and network development etc. 

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24 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

She'll be overridden with aggression and jealousy, but that's only going to happen if she ever pays any attention to me and my personal interests again, which, most likely won't really happen. As I said, married, two kids (well one and almost two, read further;), and thus we have plenty of reasons to just stare at the walls like vegetables in the brief moments our life gives us a second or two time off. Don't get me wrong - we love each other like nothing else in the whole wide world, it's just a tough shit with a 2 y.o. bashing the hell out of our home, and another one on the way ( 8 months pregnant, the second tasmanian devil is on his way ), bashing the hell of her internally... What could I say. Livin' the dream. 

:roflmao:

25 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

KingSong said it's not needed.

Ask 3 different people at KS and you'll get 4 different answers. :D

I asked KS last year after I received the new Control Board V1.5 if I have to do the Bluetooth patch and the answer was: we are not sure since when the patch is not necessary anymore. Please run the patch

 

32 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

guess I know the next instruction: Do the patch. 

It's an easy try. Nothing to lose. 

33 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

Where do I find the patch

 

Watch vid at 6:15 and read the stuff in the other thread:

 

 

40 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

and do I need 5 year course @ Hogwarts and a Mandarin language degree to do it, or is it straight-forward? Mind that I'm pretty well versed in technology and software, being previously occupied in lightweight programming, web and network development etc. 

It could help, but not really necessary :laughbounce2:

 

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Sounds like you are improving on the wheel. :thumbup:

The 16X pedals do tilt differently than the 18XL, MSX, Nikola, Ninebot Z10, Ninebot One E+, etc.
Just as they all tilt differently.

In the softer pedal modes the pedals tilt and assist in braking, turning, accelerating and climbing. This can be a little disconcerting as we are being tilted in 3D space.
I find the 16X intuitive and the MSX confusing, before it was the other way around.

If you are getting random tilts one thing that I noticed that provoked it was listening to music at lower than 50% battery.
Try to see if the behaviour is repeatable.
These days I have Bluetooth on but I do not connect to the speaker. This keeps the wheel quiet upon starting so I don't get the "BLUETOOTH IS ON!" voice.

The 16X has a bit of a gyro feel to it compared to the V8 for instance. The gyro is easily defeatable by shifting more weight onto the inside pedal when turning.
This is counter-intuitive compared to other wheels except the Z10.

The 16X compared to other wheels also reacts a lot less to input from the calves/legs on the shell during turns. So I stay away from the sides or lightly graze them and shift from foot to foot. Not having anterior pelvic tilt while riding also helps to maintain a good centered position.

Give it time! It truly is relearning to ride. I suffered through the first 2000km on my MSX. And now I am suffering on the MSX again after riding the 16X for 7000km.

All my friends hated it in the beginning and they love it now. It is the smallest feeling of the large wheels.

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Posted (edited)

I also have the 16x it truly is my favourite wheel, I weigh about 200 lbs and have my tyre set to 30 psi , I ride hard mode it doesn't dip as much when accelerating and braking and turns, the 16x like Mike said has a gyroscope feeling meaning you will slightly try and fight it cause it wants to stay upright , just give it time it will come naturally, thx for the read don't start messing with to many settings or thinking your wheel is broke before you've give some hours just start at 30psi ,softer will be a bit more forgiving to start with then increase as you start understanding the wheel if needed 👍 keep it on hard mode for now then let us know if it still dips,, soft mode makes it more sway more and feel like it's dipping

Edited by stephen

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17 minutes ago, stephen said:

soft mode makes it more sway more and feel like it's dipping

I can't agree to that. I feel absolutely no dipping in soft mode with board V1.5. 

If you feel it, then maybe there are really differences between V1.4 (which you probably have) and V1.5. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, buell47 said:

I can't agree to that. I feel absolutely no dipping in soft mode with board V1.5. 

If you feel it, then maybe there are really differences between V1.4 (which you probably have) and V1.5. 

I don't feel it I'm just trying to help and if George does feel like it's dipping ,,try hard mode,, it might be just the sensation in soft mode he's experiencing I don't have a problem in any mode but they do feel different and act different

Edited by stephen

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Do it right away when calibrating.
Put the phone with bubble app crosswise on the pedal and if you don't have a straight stand (not you, I mean for the 16X :rolleyes:) then lean it against the wall (I hope the walls are reasonably straight in your historic building? :D). But make sure it is as straight as possible. Don't hold it and don't wobble when calibrating.

Good luck!

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, George Iliev said:

@buell47 have you noticed strange pedal dips? I still can't put my finger on exactly when, but it seems that on small incline, or after entering/exiting a corner, the wheel feels like it's 1-2 degrees dipping forward... It's pretty unnerving.

@George Iliev so today I did a bit of testing, I upgraded my firmware to 1.08, after a calibration I went for a ride and YES my pedals dipped forward ever so slightly when riding (and forward feels uncomfortable especially if you hit a bump)I tested a few times then come home and did another calibration , (presice which I don't usually bother to much) and yes same outcome , weird forward tilting not sudden but soon as I accelerate faster, came home installed version 1.05 for a change as I've been on 1.07 for ages  and it didn't tilt forward same as 1.07 doesn't ,, I'll probably go back to 1.07 as it seems the best,, so before you crack up get an iPhone and try 1.07 firmware and let us know how it goes 👍👍 hope this helps

Did you say your on 1.08???

Screenshot-20200416-142634-com-kingsong-

Edited by stephen

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Posted (edited)

Unbelievable! WTF? :furious:

Thanks for saving me the trouble. :efefc8626c:

I was about to borrow a iPhone from my friend and update it to 1.0.8 Well, I'll let that go. :efee612b4b:

Edited by buell47

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26 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Unbelievable! WTF? :furious:

Thanks for saving me the trouble. :efefc8626c:

I was about to borrow a iPhone from my friend and update it to 1.0.8 Well, I'll let that go. :efee612b4b:

It's ok you can downgrade again after 😁

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2 hours ago, buell47 said:

Do it right away when calibrating.
Put the phone with bubble app crosswise on the pedal and if you don't have a straight stand (not you, I mean for the 16X :rolleyes:) then lean it against the wall (I hope the walls are reasonably straight in your historic building? :D). But make sure it is as straight as possible. Don't hold it and don't wobble when calibrating.

Good luck!

U'd be surprised, but we have not a single 90 degree angle in the whole place, and the walls are a poem for the high seas. 

1 hour ago, stephen said:

@George Iliev so today I did a bit of testing, I upgraded my firmware to 1.08, after a calibration I went for a ride and YES my pedals dipped forward ever so slightly when riding (and forward feels uncomfortable especially if you hit a bump)I tested a few times then come home and did another calibration , (presice which I don't usually bother to much) and yes same outcome , weird forward tilting not sudden but soon as I accelerate faster, came home installed version 1.05 for a change as I've been on 1.07 for ages  and it didn't tilt forward same as 1.07 doesn't ,, I'll probably go back to 1.07 as it seems the best,, so before you crack up get an iPhone and try 1.07 firmware and let us know how it goes 👍👍 hope this helps

Did you say your on 1.08???

Dudes, update from an hour ago:

A little info: 
Yes, firmware's 1.08 currently
wheel is set to "soft" mode ... i think.
Today I installed the bluetooth patch as @buell47 suggested.
Did a calibration with bubble level, on top of the housing, with X and Y reading 0.00/+-0.02. I did hold it between my feet to keep it from wobbling while pressing the on/off button, so that's not exactly how you suggested, but I think it was pretty stable. 

Results:

Went out for a ride and to do some chores, and to my best experience I think the "floating" is gone. There is like a really subtle forward tilt while riding, but IDK if that's from the soft mode, as I haven't experimented with the other settings yet. What I'm saying to be noted, is that the device is now rideable and pretty enjoyable to say the least. I wasn't frightened a single time today, and I did like a 10 km ride, and, to test calibration, went down and up trough some pretty steep hills, and it acted beautifully, predictable and repeatable. There might be some subtle movements, but I don't know if they're actually there, or it's just me imagining and matrixing a needle in a haystack, that isn't actually there, and I'll need a lot of riding to be absolutely cardinal about that statement. 

To stay true to the title of my thread, I need to add here, that such a subtle mishaps and pedal dips (only forward though, the 16x does it both ways) were noticeable on the ninebot S2 also, when entering a corner somewhat aggressively, and trying to accelerate inside the bend. Then it seemed to dip the pedals further forward, and it was a bit unnerving, but once you grasp the concept it was controllable. Not nice, but controllable, because it was repeatable, thus - possible to learn to expect it. Pretty sure it was a firmware overlook due to low quantity (and possibly quality) of testing before release. Always kept it up to date, and although it seemed to be better every next update, they never fixed it while I was using it. 

All that being said, I talked to my dealer, and he still doesn't trust the control board. He told me there was a similar issue with another client, where the wheel wouldn't hold calibration for more than 16(ish) hours, after which, looses it, and starts floating again. He told me to monitor it now, and if the problem is gone for 48+ hours that I'm on the safe side, but I'm not to hurry being happy about it. 

I'll keep you posted, and I'll possibly do a bit of more detailed writeup of the ride today, but that'll be later in the evening, as my work is trying to bite me in the ass, and I need to play catch-up for a while. 

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Yes! I am very angry and disappointed in you. :furious: How can you leave me alone so long in these difficult times? :crying:Are your wife and 1 (2) children more important to you than writing here? :eff04a58a6:

 

:roflmao:

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hahahahahahahahahh that was epic!!! :P 

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Dudududes. 

I was thinking of posting here first, but started another thread, because thought it might be helpful to other lost and data-hungry soul. 

I was looking for suggested settings for the EUC world app (ex-wheellog) specifically for the 16x. I've included a simple list, which chan be copied and filled by the next guy (or gal, feminists don't hate), so in the end, we will have some nicely arranged data, from which we might be able to extrapolate some objective conclusions about safe amperage/current alarms and/or voltage-related alarms depending on rider weight, etc. 

Please have a look, and fill it, so I can ruthlessly copy your settings for myself and skip the pavement-biting-face-scraping part while trying to guesstimate them personally :D

Thanks mates ;)

Oh, and ps: 

On 4/18/2020 at 5:12 PM, buell47 said:

Yes! I am very angry and disappointed in you. :furious: How can you leave me alone so long in these difficult times? :crying:Are your wife and 1 (2) children more important to you than writing here? :eff04a58a6:

Errrm, I don't know how to answer that, because my wife might read this some day, and I'd be fucked. In which case, I'll just leave this here: Love you honey! ;* kisses to the kids <3 

Just kidding. Yep, they are more important. Don't take it personally tho, I consider them more important than my life also, so the forum's no biggie ... 

 

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Posted (edited)

Time for a write-up.

First of all, I have a son now, and I guess I have the whole Family Starter Pack, even with the expansion (boy and a girl). Rejoice :D

Now, on more pressing matters: 
I've ridden the 16x for about 100 km's (not a really long distance), but split between 43+ trips in total. So - a lot of trips, small distances. 

Wheel starts to grow on me, but it's one heavy ass mofo. By no means NOWHERE NEAR as nimble as the S2, clumsy on tight boardwalks when you're trying to get on/off it, near other people, etc. It might be just me yet, but I was able to do that on a dime with the S2, which is not the case with the KS16x.

Something curious here - It happened to me three times already: When I try to get on it (I'm right footed, so right foot is on wheel, left on ground), I closed my left pedal with my off-foot, which resulted in a really clumsy getting off it again :D. 

Pedals are squeaky, and uncomfortable to open with your feet. Even when you do it, they feel cheap, because they "fall" to their open places from a firmly closed position which makes them feel "unsmooth" and "chinese". I'm going to be 3D project/printing a solution to that, that I might be offering to you guys if they turn out good. 

The battery is literally endless. I don't know what the hype about the firmwares is all about. I was just reading the thread about 2.02 firmware, comparing it to 1.05, but with control board 1.4 while BT module is 1.93285727895X.yZ squared, but transistors are models 8.5 with 1.5 control board hard settings, 1.08 firmware has softer...... WTF?!?!?! I was literally reading it all, and it felt like one of my briefings about the source code development on an AI project I'm currently working on. 

Dudes, we're not engineers, and we only have access to the "ass dyno" - term from cars - i.e. - NO HARD DATA. No dynamometers, no repeatable environment, different riders, etc, etc ... Which brings me to the next question:

I did 40 km on soft mode, 30 km's on medium or riding or whatever it was called, and the last ones - on hard mode, experient <- whatever that means, etc. 
There is LITERALLY ZERO DIFFERENCE between them. The only thing I've noticed (and is quite unnerving) is the fact, that when you push it hard, or lean forward for some seconds, and you're on soft mode, the wheel tends to "lean" a bit forwards "helping you" accelerate (NOT), which tilt doesn't immediately shift backwards when you instantly brake hard, which is HORRID, as your feet are angled towards the front, yet, you're squatting back trying to stop in order not to kill the LSD-infused kid wandering off in the middle of the bike track, while trying to chase a strangely large cockroach with a stick. Put the wheel on hard mode, and that effect is still there, just a lot more negligeable. 

Which brings me to my next point. 
Acceleration is great. Almost awesome, and I presume it would be even cooler with what you guys are using "power pads" or whatever, since without them, the wheel feels a bit "detached" from me, because it's bulky and smooth, and heavy AS FUCK, and you can't reliably or for long, grip it between your legs and force-shift it forwards or, which is more important to me - backwards, making it stop harder (or of course, accelerate). 

Stopping sucks. That said, it needs some clarification: 
The S2 stops on a dime, and when you haul ass backwards, it used to tilt backwards, helping you feel solidly standing on the wheel, and that reaction was INSTANT. I was kinda expecting EVERY POSSIBLE WHEEL out there to be like that, since IT IS AWESOME AS FUCK to feel that secure and naturally standing. 
Not the case here.
Pedals are.... well. Not helpful might be the least invasive thing to say. This kinda breaks the whole "augmentation" feeling, because the wheel doesn't feel as "in tune" with me when breaking as the S2. 

On the other hand... Handling in turns and carving ARE AWESOME. Pedals are scooping just a bit when cornering hard, pedals stay solid and contrary to the turn-angle - awesomely stable feeling, which, wasn't the case with the S2. There were pedal tips, unnatural angles, miscalibrations from small boardwalk jumps... It wasn't so... fast-adapting compared to the 16x.

If I had to describe it as a personality trait, S2 compared to the 16x feels like... The X feels like it wants to be ridden and can take an aggressive ride, and it kinda taunts you here and there to push you, but it's rather not so happy about stopping. It doesn't really like slowing down or stopping, and it feels uncooperative in that area. Sometimes dangerously estranged and detached even. The S2 is more like a pocket-size blissfully obeying pomeranian dog, which is not especially bright or "fitness intelligent", but is really easily scared and stopping and running away are it's specialties. It's going to do what you want it running forwards, but expect a few mishaps here and there, but when it comes to stopping and abandoning ship - It's the expert in that situation.

My mudguard tore half off today from a single contact with a box in the trunk of my car. It was brand brand new, not even a scuff on it. Horrid design, with a horrid weak-point on each side. 

My current net conclusions - the 16x needs European software developers and better industrial design department, and Europe plastics supplier. My ninebot was LITERALLY built as a tank. It took plunges from 2 meters free-fall to a hard concrete, cutouts with 24-25 kph, rolling for tens of meters after, hitting whatever was there, and never had a SINGLE piece fall or anything more than a moderate (not even big) scuff or dent. KS 16x - fell from a standstill to a decked terrace  - scuffed deeply the faux leather sidepads, and scuffed deeply the plastic next to it, put it inside my trunk and tore the mudguard in half, and hit a door with it, causing a scuff on the front. B****, Please. It's a 2k$ wheel compared to a 5-600$ roomba. Do it right the next time around.

The Ninebot needs 3-4 times bigger battery, and possibly better engine, but not necessarily. For the city commute it's adequate IMHO. 30 kph wouldn't be safe on such a narrow and small tire so... Speed is a-ok, but battery size is a no-go. And a KS trolley handle. Golly is that thing awesome when walking. Horrid quality though, on that element also, and you can feel it wobbling when you're hauling it's fat ass up and down the stairs. 

Edited by George Iliev

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32 minutes ago, George Iliev said:

First of all, I have a son now, and I guess I have the whole Family Starter Pack, even with the expansion (boy and a girl). Rejoice

Congratulations on the birth of your son. :thumbup:

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Posted (edited)

PS: Another thing that BUGS THE FUCK OUT OF ME with the trolley handle: Why the fuck did you make it so cheap, KingSong? I need to extend it only half way in order to be really comfortable with it. When you extend it fully it gets cheesy and wobbly. But no, surrey, you have to extend it all the way up, and only then fold it half way back down, because FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON you are unable to lock it directly in the half way position from fully folded state, because the front nut is misaligned 70% of the cases. Mindblowingly stupid design. As I said - desperate need of a BETTER INDUSTRIAL DESIGN DEPARTMENT

And the KING of all PITAs with this wheel - The cutoff switch. You have to FULLY stop, lightly tap the handle, hear the beep, pick it up. 2-5 seconds lost. 
The Ninebot experience: Haul ass while still moving at walking speed, grab wheel by handle, up the stairs, ZERO times malfunctioned. 

The KS great but yet crappy handle though - sometimes you extend it, and it sits half way. Sometimes you have to go the full 800-fucking-miles to the top-extended position, then fold back. Sometimes you extend the handle, and for some strange reason, it reads the motor off switch, and the motor switches off, when you put it back down it switches on, but is already too leaned forward to balance, so you have to manually lift it to be vertical, at which point IT DOESN'T DISENGAGE THE MOTOR, because it doesn't read the motor-off switch that time around, and the wheel starts to spin, shouting "PLEASE, DECELERATE" in the middle of the bank at which you're keeping millions of euros (< had to try, even I didn't believe it), all of which, you need to do while swinging left and right a huge 1 meter stick of a handle, because YOU HAD TO FULLY EXTEND IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Idiotic, horrid, absurd.
Oh, and remember - You're doing all of that ABSURDLY laughable stuff, and leaving skidmarks on the marble floors, while hearing a PLETHORA of BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP. BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP. Chinese are apparently all deaf. No other logical explanation about that design there. 

Edited by George Iliev

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:roflmao::thumbup: :roflmao:

My gift to you for the birth of your son:

  1. Push the button to pull out the trolley handle.
  2. Pull only a few cm (not more than about 5)
  3. Release the button
  4. Then move on. 

In my case the trolley handle already locks in the middle position when you pull it out. 

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Just now, buell47 said:

:roflmao::thumbup: :roflmao:

My gift to you for the birth of your son:

  1. Push the button to pull out the trolley handle.
  2. Pull only a few cm (not more than about 5)
  3. Release the button
  4. Then move on. 

In my case the trolley handle already locks in the middle position when you pull it out. 

Exactly my usecase. Not the result though. It locks only the back stick nut. The front nut remains floating, and in order to lock it, (it seems like the inner tubes are out of place) you need to fully extend and then fold. 70% of the time what you wrote doesn't work for me. Admittedly, there are 30% cases, which pay out, but that's too low for my satisfaction, or I guess anybody's, if I had to gamble on it.

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