King Song S18 Discussion

[Planemo]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

If GW boss already blames KS from stealing the Inmotion technology, I would expect there to be more similarities. Do we know that the V11 definitely has a fixed link mechanism, or could the covers be hiding just a smaller linkage system than what's on the S18?

True, I dont know for sure but the early vid of the stripped down V11 suggested it to be nothing more complex than a vertically mounted direct acting suspension.

Not saying this is bad (especially when compared to NO suspension) but linkages are used for a reason. Its also how my MTB gets 5" wheel travel from a 2" shock stroke (which is a Fox Float as well, and I rate highly).

[WI_Hedgehog]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Speakers, OK. But ring lights take up needed space? No, I can't agree with that.

Some space, yes. More to the point, structural integrity, price, and reliability are affected.

It might be that with the new design they're trying to eliminate all unnecessary complexity and focus on only the "necessary." If so, I think that's smart, because it keeps the cost down on the introduction model, is hopefully more reliable, and people get good value for their money. (Plus, if there's a major design revision there's less to revise.)

Is the new app the one in the video?

(And that S18 suspension travel looks like 5 cm, counting only the shock. Shock & tire looks like 10cm max.)

Edited April 8, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[mrelwood]

 

8 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Is this huge news or am I reading it wrong?  I thought KS always limited at like 70%?

Nope, 18XL starts throttling when 30% (or was it 25%?) of battery is remaining, 16X starts at 30-50% depending on the firmware version (I lost track).

Inmotion V10F does start throttling very early though, perhaps at 70% battery remaining. But that is expected to drastically change for the V11.

[mike_bike_kite]

13 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Is this huge news or am I reading it wrong?  I thought KS always limited at like 70%?  Maybe this is a translation error and they mean it limits once 30% is spent (meaning when the battery is at 70%)?

It depends on which KS wheel. The 16X starts to gradually throttle at 50% while the 18XL only starts throttling at 25%. I believe my own wheel, a 16S, starts throttling when the battery reaches 30%. This thread might make interesting reading.

[EDIT] don't you hate it when others type faster than you 

Edited April 8, 2020 by mike_bike_kite

[.....]

36 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

One thing I'm not so keen on is the name of the wheel. All their other wheels are the wheel diameter followed by a letter that sort of signifies the type. Unfortunately they already have 18S. I just think S18 looks odd. Do we refer to it as the KSS18?

SKS18 ftw... say it a few times, it grows on you with a bang!  So similar in spec as my 18L that doesnt throttle until 30% remaining or something like that. I would assume the sks18 will be 50kmh until 30% remains, also. I regularly cruise mine down to low and it stays at 50kmh. Sometimes i think it sags and throttles me, but then on rebound later it doesnt. At any rate, the throttling and speed of the 18L seems about right. I dont try to climb 30percent grades at 35% battery at 50kmh tho, so i cant comment on what buffer im running at 50kmh at 35% on a street. Its enough so far.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Brandin J. Mercer]

33 minutes ago, xorbe said:

For us "casual users" (short trips, mostly smooth paths) ... is it too soon to ask about 16x2 with humble suspension?  Tesla is such a great all-rounder machine.  (Er, just quoting for context, open-ended question not directed to you Marty.)

So my roommate uses a paved bike trail to go to work and currently uses the 1.95 inch tire the v8 comes with, and he greatly prefers the 3 inch tire on my 16x.  And I have to agree with him and Marty 3 inch tires are really the only way to go!

[Marty Backe]

44 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

Some space, yes. More to the point, structural integrity, price, and reliability are affected.

It might be that with the new design they're trying to eliminate all unnecessary complexity and focus on only the "necessary." If so, I think that's smart, because it keeps the cost down on the introduction model, is hopefully more reliable, and people get good value for their money. (Plus, if there's a major design revision there's less to revise.)

Is the new app the one in the video?

(And that S18 suspension travel looks like 5 cm, counting only the shock. Shock & tire looks like 10cm max.)

I've read that the actually range of travel is 90mm

[WI_Hedgehog]

That is Kuji Rolls, you can tell by his shoes.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[WI_Hedgehog]

13 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've read that the actually range of travel is 90mm

I read 90mm & 100mm of suspension travel, but saw about 5cm of shock travel in the KS video (which maxed it out), and the tire has something like 5cm max. compression before hitting the rim, so a total suspension travel (since the tire is part of the suspension) of about 10cm.

[Phong Vu]

52 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

SKS18 ftw... say it a few times, it grows on you with a bang!  So similar in spec as my 18L that doesnt throttle until 30% remaining or something like that.

I think I read somewhere, people mentioned that 18l, xl is throttle at 50% for the new 2200W motor, which is this one in S18?

[Rywokast]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Out of the 17 wheels that I've owned, only 3 required me to remove a tire for repairs. But I agree that it would be nice if working on the tire was not a nightmare. I continue to hope that I never have to replace the Z10 tire.

youre lucky as hell.. ive had to change 8 tubes lol

[Rywokast]

36 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

I think I read somewhere, people mentioned that 18l, xl is throttle at 50% for the new 2200W motor, which is this one in S18?

original 2000W is throttled at 25%, new 2200W is throttled at 50%, however this is directly controlled by firmware, can be changed any time and you can patch different firmware to change this.. its only throttled once you go to firmware 2.X which coupled with the new motor gives the 18L a good deal more torque and off the line speed, so they start throttling earlier rather than letting users potentially faceplant themselves.. however especially with that smaller battery compared to the 18XL i believe it would be throttling earlier than 25%, like the 16X.. but who knows this is a brand new wheel.. 16X top speed is already sketchy af and this is an 18" wheel so maybe theyll meet in the middle 35%

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rywokast

[xorbe]

35 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I read 90mm & 100mm of suspension travel, but saw about 5cm of shock travel in the KS video (which maxed it out), and the tire has something like 5cm max. compression before hitting the rim, so a total suspension travel (since the tire is part of the suspension) of about 10cm.

No way, they will be crucified if they try to count tire flex as suspension.  Every wheel on earth will suddenly claim to have a suspension.  (I mean, technically they do, but it's not what people expect.)

[Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 So similar in spec as my 18L that doesnt throttle until 30% remaining or something like that. I would assume the sks18 will be 50kmh until 30% remains, also. I regularly cruise mine down to low and it stays at 50kmh.

I drive old KS18XL and 16X, and bought MSP. 18XL keeps 45km/h up to 50% battery level. It never reached 50km/h because it measures wrong speed. Wrong speed also for 18L, so you never drove at 50km/h unless you are below 60kg :). Speed reduction in 16X starts at 70% battery level, when you only consummed 30% with secure firmware 1.07, otherwise you may experience faceplant (v 1.05). In this thread they showed similar electronics for 16X and s18, so I am sure that speed reduction starts really soon, as for 16X. S18 has even less battery than 16X, which is ugly. The motor has higher power than old 18XL, so forget your assumption of keeping speed up to 30% battery level. KingSong should use 100V to avoid the voltage drop bug that limits performance in 16X and S18. Otherwise, the should keep the old motor, but it is not good for steep hills (less torque, bad heat dissipation also, it overheats). My conclusion, they keep wrong design. 

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said:

I drive old KS18XL and 16X, and bought MSP. 18XL keeps 45km/h up to 50% battery level. It never reached 50km/h because it measures wrong speed. Wrong speed also for 18L, so you never drove at 50km/h unless you are below 60kg :). Speed reduction in 16X starts at 70% battery level, when you only consummed 30% with secure firmware 1.07, otherwise you may experience faceplant (v 1.05). In this thread they showed similar electronics for 16X and s18, so I am sure that speed reduction starts really soon, as for 16X. S18 has even less battery than 16X, which is ugly. The motor has higher power than old 18XL, so forget your assumption of keeping speed up to 30% battery level. KingSong should use 100V to avoid the voltage drop bug that limits performance in 16X and S18. Otherwise, the should keep the old motor, but it is not good for steep hills (less torque, bad heat dissipation also, it overheats). My conclusion, they keep wrong design. 

is it not 100V? that would surprise me since everyone else is doing that now.. hmm maybe thats why i never understood people saying that KS lies so much about real speed.. i mean i have ridden a lot of wheels and KS wheels feel to be going the speed that they are saying the same as any other wheel ive ridden.. but at 54 kg maybe thats why it feels that way to me.. also i have to push really hard basically be doing it intentionally to feel any pushback from KS wheels and ive always heard from other people KS has crazy tiltback.. i have felt tiltback one time on my 16S lol and i have over 10k km on a 16S

[Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina]

16 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

original 2000W is throttled at 25%, new 2200W is throttled at 50%, however this is directly controlled by firmware, can be changed any time and you can patch different firmware to change this.. its only throttled once you go to firmware 2.X which coupled with the new motor gives the 18L a good deal more torque and off the line speed, so they start throttling earlier rather than letting users potentially faceplant themselves.. however especially with that smaller battery compared to the 18XL i believe it would be throttling earlier than 25%, like the 16X.. but who knows this is a brand new wheel.. 16X top speed is already sketchy af and this is an 18" wheel so maybe theyll meet in the middle 35%

Agreed until last sentence. The new motor drinks lots of power and gives plenty of torque. The 16X inch tire with nearly 18 inch outer diameter had difficulties to supply required energy. So I do not expect with less battery capacity and same voltage a better performance of  S18 than 16X.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

is it not 100V?

It's 84V.

[Rywokast]

Just now, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said:

Agreed until last sentence. The new motor drinks lots of power and gives plenty of torque. The 16X inch tire with nearly 18 inch outer diameter had difficulties to supply required energy. So I do not expect with less battery capacity and same voltage a better performance of  S18 than 16X.

yes but also a 16" tire requires more rotations to be going an equivalent speed.. i havent heard of any issues with the 2200W motor on the 18XL?

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's 84V.

oh i didnt see where they listed the specs anywhere but the teaser pics with fake range xD lame

[Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina]

6 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

yes but also a 16" tire requires more rotations to be going an equivalent speed.. i havent heard of any issues with the 2200W motor on the 18XL?

Obviously, the mosfets and supplied current are less demanding in 18XL 2200W than 16X. You climb easily with 16X where 18XL cannot. Lastly, the outer diameter of 16X and 18XL are nearly the same, requiring same rotation speeds for same linear velocity.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

youre lucky as hell.. ive had to change 8 tubes lol

Remind me never to ride with you 

[.....]

36 minutes ago, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said:

I drive old KS18XL and 16X, and bought MSP. 18XL keeps 45km/h up to 50% battery level. It never reached 50km/h because it measures wrong speed. Wrong speed also for 18L, so you never drove at 50km/h unless you are below 60kg :). Speed reduction in 16X starts at 70% battery level, when you only consummed 30% with secure firmware 1.07, otherwise you may experience faceplant (v 1.05). In this thread they showed similar electronics for 16X and s18, so I am sure that speed reduction starts really soon, as for 16X. S18 has even less battery than 16X, which is ugly. The motor has higher power than old 18XL, so forget your assumption of keeping speed up to 30% battery level. KingSong should use 100V to avoid the voltage drop bug that limits performance in 16X and S18. Otherwise, the should keep the old motor, but it is not good for steep hills (less torque, bad heat dissipation also, it overheats). My conclusion, they keep wrong design. 

funny, I weigh almost exactly 60kg.  I know ks inflates the actual speeds, so I have never REALLY hit past 31mph(maybe 32 momentarily if i push hard at 30). However, on my 18L with factory motor and factory batteries with firmware 2.0, i routinely ride tiltback at eucw reported 31mph/50mkh(i have a few tours that show this and a video that shows telemetry during a ride doing it). I notice throttling WELL after 50%. I typically ride mine down to near 30% (as reported by eucw) and begin to hit throttling (28mph?) somewhere around 25-30%(end of my hour long video tour shows the throttling speed and battery state). Now maybe im not REALLY going 31mph,but i easily ride at a reported 31mph (per app ) for nearly ALL my rides. I very rarely go lower than 30%. I do this with bluetooth blasting 100% too. I didnt realize that the newer motor and the 18XL are throttling earlier. Hmm, i need to look into this more, as I just assumed it would be less throttling or at least equal to that of the older 18L. I REALLY need some answers for the sks18, as I may have wrongfully assumed it would be as good or better specs in speed and range ability as the (now dated) 18L. Makes me rethink if i should entertain a crossgrade to the 18xl even. Sorry about the thread derail... so much for assumptions...

wasnt the guy on the game 'metroid' named samus? I think the sks18 is modeled after his head...

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

Remind me never to ride with you 

lmao, i dont know what the hell i do.. just bad luck... i have never once had a pierced tire.. either splits at the seam, or mysteriously wearing out i havent found something in my tire or tube ever

[Phong Vu]

7 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

is it not 100V? that would surprise me since everyone else is doing that now.. 

Could I ask if I missed some wheels?
I think only Gotway wheels are 100V now?

Seeing that both Kingsong and Inmotion are not going with 100V wheels, maybe they know a thing or two about the safety (possibly) reasons?

I could be wrong, but it seems Gotway also leading the reported battery explosion cases? <--- just by all the posts that I've read around, not by any report.

[Rywokast]

9 minutes ago, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said:

Obviously, the mosfets and supplied current are less demanding in 18XL 2200W than 16X. You climb easily with 16X where 18XL cannot. Lastly, the outer diameter of 16X and 18XL are nearly the same, requiring same rotation speeds for same linear velocity.

i havent seem them side by side i assumed the 18XL was much bigger..

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rywokast

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

Could I ask if I missed some wheels?
I think only Gotway wheels are 100V now?

Seeing that both Kingsong and Inmotion are not going with 100V wheels, maybe they know a thing or two about the safety (possibly) reasons?

I could be wrong, but it seems Gotway also leading the reported battery explosion cases? <--- just by all the posts that I've read around, not by any report.

i must have been dreaming... why did i think this whole time the V11 was going to be 100V lol... maybe that was a rumor or something, now its not so strange that KS wont be 100V.. but yea, why not? O.o