Jump to content

King Song S18 Discussion


Phong Vu

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

..... the suspension will be SS instead of Al alloy. If true, .....

It will not be SS as they have said, and can be seen in several videos and pictures, it is a coated steel.  There is no question of truth, it has been done and shown. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Again, my query is the same. Where how is that number stating factually? Also didn't the V11 also have some final production changes as well with one of them being the upping of 2000w motor to 2200w? Do we also have the factual weight of the V11's final production unit?

Not trying to up 1 or down the other but I'd like to know where the numbers being thrown out are coming from as all. Thanks

edit: Anyhoos to the S18 afficiandos, I wouldn't lose sleep over this even if its factually true. I checked into the S18 update & I believe they said the bottom house of the quad tubes hold the wheel to the suspension will be SS instead of Al alloy. If true, then the additional weight wouldn't much matter as its sprung mass ie. the tube housing isn't directly attached to the moving wheel itself. I would be slightly disappointed if it were unsprung mass.

SS would be stronger than Al alloy so I'm kosher with that.

Ad S18 - for example this official thread. 

As for the V11 power upping, if I remember it is a firmware optimisation, perhaps in combination with the changed battery cells to higher quality, so the wight didn't really change.  And here we can be sure as first production batch of V11 is already ridden on by their happy new owners. :-) (Also, there is an "inmotion official" section as well where you can see the changes. Same as with KS.)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cool! Thanks for the update on the new coated Steel slide housing instead of Al alloy. Bcos of the open frame design, anything to strengthen & protect the wheel is good news. As far as weight, there's no mention of the increase in the S11 Final Product Changes page nor are they any mentioned of exact weight of the V11 either.

My only concern is if the unsprung weight changes as that is what effects the wheel's inherent handling & responsiveness characteristics. Suspension setup can easily negate the extra coupla kilos if its sprung mass. Regardless this S18 is going to be THE BEST suspended wheel on the market for now at least. Ofcos I could always be wrong but nothing will come close once its correctly setup.

edit: Opps I meant the BEST HANDLING SUSPENDED wheel on the market for now assuming its properly setup ofcos.

Edited by Scottie888
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The V11 weight has been announced as 27 kg since the introduction, and none of the upgrades add any weight. So far Duf is the only one I’ve heard of weighing the production version, and it was 27 point something in kg.

18 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Regardless this S18 is going to be THE BEST suspended wheel on the market for now at least.

It will probably be the wheel with the best suspension, but the best wheel with suspension is up to each use case. So far I think all reviewers who have tried both demo units have acclaimed the V11 as the better complete package.

Edited by mrelwood
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it's been confirmed over a month ago that the weight would go from 22 to 25 kg (increase of 6.6 lbs), I remember reading it on this thread. 

But tbh I don't think it should matter as much as if the wheel really fits your use case (think offroad jumping and Chooch). The experienced biker will choose to ride a dirt bike only for a very specific purpose, and your average dirt bike is ~200 lbs. Of course, you could argue relative weight is still important as dual sports motorbikes average ~300 lbs. But then again, if you're not at Chooch's level, the more appropriate comparison might be to a 30 lb enduro mountainbike :lol:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It will probably be the wheel with the best suspension, but the best wheel with suspension is up to each use case. So far I think all reviewers who have tried both demo units have acclaimed the V11 as the better complete package.

Thats what I said, the best handling suspended wheel on the market for now (I edit it on at the bottom cos I knew some will point that out). Also on 1 of my prior posts, I already mentioned & granted that the V11 is the better all round wheel just for the added range if nothing else.

I also believe on my very 1st few posts on this thread, I mentioned I bought this S18 for a very specific purpose - as a pure offroad machine. My alternative to a MTB to challenge the technical gnarly stuff, the jumps, the climbs, the downhill, the bike parks & anywhere that a MTB goes. Its my weekend afternoon toy. 

If I need an allround machine, personally I wouldn't have picked this S18 if for nothing else, the less than acceptable range (for me). I already have a Tesla V2 1480 for those duties & its a fun workhorse as a city ride wheel.

That said, if this S18 had 1500-1800+ah battery, its likely I woulda picked it as my allrounder as well. I've nothing against the V11 'cept maybe it reminds me of my dad's Oldsmobile. Not exactly the look I'm after but thats me. YMMV ofcos.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, B08AH said:

compared to S18 all the wheels are a downgrade in offroad. According to what Chooch says anyway.

I don't give a shit what Chooch says. I'm not living in the woods in the middle of an off-road paradise. I have to ride there and I don't want to do it by car every time. And I don't want to be limited to a 10-kilometer radius around my house.

The tire restrictions of the S18 also don't speak for the Nonplusultra Offroad Wheel.

Seriously, at what battery level (after how many kilometers) can you expect full power without having to worry about the next uphill climb that the tiny 3p battery will run out of power?

For me the S18 does not look like the best offroad wheel of the year. There I see rather the 16X as winner. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

24 minutes ago, buell47 said:

For me the S18 does not look like the best offroad wheel of the year. There I see rather the 16X as winner

I do lots of offroading and urban stuff with my 16x and have to admit even with amazing custom powerpads, it still isn't the best offroader out there. Even the outdated msx beats my 16x in this niche thanks to better clearance and ability to roll over much bigger obstacles without jumping. If we are talking strictly stock wheels and purchasable accessories, then the 16x does not even stand a chance. 

Whenever I was out for ride I would feel the need to jump higher and roll up stairs and have some sort of protection against dented rims during big drops and the s18 is the answer. Whether the sacrifices to all-rounder-ness are worth it are still up for debate.

The 16x is "only" the best at being an all-rounder to me.

Edited by Tinkererboi
Double post - amended
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To check this I have now ordered the MSP. But I assume that it will only satisfy the desire for more speed and that there will be losses on the technical trail riding and hill climbing. 

I would be happy if I'm totally wrong. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I don't give a shit what Chooch says. I'm not living in the woods in the middle of an off-road paradise. I have to ride there and I don't want to do it by car every time. And I don't want to be limited to a 10-kilometer radius around my house.

The tire restrictions of the S18 also don't speak for the Nonplusultra Offroad Wheel.

Seriously, at what battery level (after how many kilometers) can you expect full power without having to worry about the next uphill climb that the tiny 3p battery will run out of power?

For me the S18 does not look like the best offroad wheel of the year. There I see rather the 16X as winner. 

Being a new member here & a rookie wheeler & all, I'm kinda confused. If I'm not mistaken, this is an S18 thread so if one doesn't give a shat about the S18 or what someone (I saw his vids & it was a big reason I bought the S18) on YT says about the S18, I'm confused why you're trolling here & trying to dump on other's who do give a shat.

I coulda bought the MSP (actually its cheaper than the S18) but personally I think it looks like shat. Regardless of what I personally feel, I don't go to the MSP thread & tell everyone how I don't care for it & its worse that dog shat. Where I'm from, that's rude.

I respect your opinions & all but end of the day, they're your opinions. Where I'm from, we have a saying..."opinions are like a#@holes, everybody has one". If you are entitled to one, then please allow others to have theirs too. "nuff said.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, buell47 said:

I don't give a shit what Chooch says. I'm not living in the woods in the middle of an off-road paradise. I have to ride there and I don't want to do it by car every time. And I don't want to be limited to a 10-kilometer radius around my house.

The tire restrictions of the S18 also don't speak for the Nonplusultra Offroad Wheel.

Seriously, at what battery level (after how many kilometers) can you expect full power without having to worry about the next uphill climb that the tiny 3p battery will run out of power?

For me the S18 does not look like the best offroad wheel of the year. There I see rather the 16X as winner. 

If you want to define the battery as the main component of the wheel that makes it the “best off-road wheel is the year” (battery literally being brought up here every day at least once - as if we all don’t know what we are getting into at this point) so be it, but you’ll be one of the only few using that criteria. Suspension is clearly a game changer for off road use, period. If you want to ride off road for hours then buy something else. I can make this claim easily - if the MSP has suspension it would then be the “best off-road wheel of the year” for me bar none. But it doesn’t, and it isn’t. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

If you want to define the battery as the main component of the wheel that makes it the “best off-road wheel is the year” (battery literally being brought up here every day at least once - as if we all don’t know what we are getting into at this point) so be it, but you’ll be one of the only few using that criteria. Suspension is clearly a game changer for off road use, period. If you want to ride off road for hours then buy something else. I can make this claim easily - if the MSP has suspension it would then be the “best off-road wheel of the year” for me bar none. But it doesn’t, and it isn’t. 

You guys should read not only what you want to read. I listed all points. If that's to much to asked, then please ignore my post. :facepalm:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, buell47 said:

..there is no reason why you should feel offended just because I see it with different eyes, because I have different requirements and demands.

I agree totally. Infact it wasn't my post nor did u critique me. Even if anyone did, I've lived long enough to know its my needs, my choice & most importantly, my money so who gives what others think or say. However if anyone wants to donate to my toy collection...my attitudes can have a markedly change😉.

I just felt the person who made the comment on a YTuber's opinion also has a valid opinion similar to anyone everyone here. The YTuber (I don't know him btw) may have an even more valid opinion because he, (unlike me & I'm assuming most here as well) has ridden the lastest beta preproduction model & IMO pushed the S18 much harder than most of the "lazy" reviews I've watched.

Everyone have egos, everyone have feelings & I felt there's no need to crush someone's pov just cos we don't give a shat. It's my personal opinion that we would have a better community if peeps don't walk into a room like a 900lb gorilla. Live & Let Live is not a bad philosophy to have in forums full of keyboard warriors & armchair experts. 

No worries bud. Just like u, I'm giving my $0.02 so no need to feel offended.

Edited by Scottie888
grammatical errors
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

However if anyone wants to donate to my toy collection...my attitudes can have a markedly change😉.

Exactly that's the point why I give a sh..., even in the case he is saying the truth. :cheers:

When I watch videos from such YouTubers, it's only because I want to look at the product. Thankfully the sound can be switched off. :efee612b4b:

Edited by buell47
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t think shock is a simple thing. It’s just like adding shock to make it great. It’s too naive. WRC and F1 have shock both, but the two systems are completely different. The amount of information in it is too much. It’s huge, and it’s not a shock that can be summarized. If some one has advantage, the information in it should be concerned, such as the v11 lighting , how it is great, and what design is contained in it, I dare Certainly not just because the power, its more of a great design. If its just a design favored by public, it will inevitably fail, but if it has an advantage, then how does it do this? the most interesting thing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sen Zhan said:

I don’t think shock is a simple thing. It’s just like adding shock to make it great. It’s too naive. WRC and F1 have shock both, but the two systems are completely different. The amount of information in it is too much. It’s huge, and it’s not a shock that can be summarized. If some one has advantage, the information in it should be concerned, such as the v11 lighting , how it is great, and what design is contained in it, I dare Certainly not just because the power, its more of a great design. If its just a design favored by public, it will inevitably fail, but if it has an advantage, then how does it do this? the most interesting thing

Actually suspension isn't rocket science & has been around since the medieval times where horse carriages had suspension of some sort, primitive though it maybe. WRC & F1 actually also have similar suspension design philosophy with albeit different implementation for different purposes.

The S18 & V11 however have 2 very opposing suspension design philosophy. Kingsong went with a minimalist unsprung mass concept while Inmotion went the complete opposite direction. To analogize this, picture a person doing kettlebell swings with a 20lbs KB. Anything fore of the gripping hand is unsprung mass & everything aft is sprung mass.

Now here's the crux, how much of difference do u think it'll make if he used a 40lbs KB instead of 20lbs? Now picture this different scenario where the 20lbs is added on to the man's frame instead. As a whole both scenarios will have the overall weight kept the same. Then only difference is where the additional 20lbs weight is placed.

Physics & physiology will dictate that swinging the 40lbs KB will invariably be that much harder, slower, less responsive  & will need an exponential greater force to maintain as he fatigues vs the 20lbs KB. Conversely I'm willing to bet that the man's performance will likely be the same swinging the 20lbs KB with & without the additional 20lbs on his frame.

This is how much of a difference sprung & unsprung weight/mass makes. An additional 20lbs of sprung weight can easily be alleviated &or neutralized with suspension setup while the additional weight on the unsprung mass becomes part & parcel of the wheel's inherent handling, responsive characteristics. In other words, unsprung mass affects everything & even more so when push to the extreme.

I think this is why the S18 gets away with using 1 shock while the V11 needs 2 (someone else can factcheck this but I remember reading it) & even then, the S18 will indubitably do a much better job when correctly setup. The S18 just have a better suspension design concept. Its physics.

Now as to why Kingsong didn't choose to wrap the whole thing with plastic & thereby give themselves greater choice re. placement of electronices & more importantly, power source can only be answer by KS. I suspect it could be aesthetics but I could be wrong. Regardless the S18 has the streetfighter look dialed. Now whether this streetfighter trumps V11's "Its not your Father's Oldmobile" styling remains to be seen. I'm also positive the 400ah battery difference (or lack thereof) may have a lot to say about it as well.

edit: Ofcos all of the above is only based on design philosophy & theory. The execution or implementation also has a lot to do with it. A good design improperly implemented is just as bad, if not likely worse than a bad design properly executed.

Also contrary to popular belief, suspension isn't to make the ride more smoother & comfortable. Suspension's raison d'etre is to maximize contact & hence traction btwn tire & surface. As everyone knows, no contact = no control & control of wheel (bike or whatever) is what every rider strives. Comfort is just a very (very very) nice bonus as a consequence of suspension.

Edited by Scottie888
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suspension does both. It improves comfort and stability. If on one EUC you ride a certain section of trail at 10mph comfortably and 15mph would be pushing the limit of control, you could ride at, for example, 15mph on an EUC with suspension with the same comfort as the non-suspension EUC at 10mph. Or you could find the new limit, at say 20mph for the wheel with suspension, which would be higher than the limit previously.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UniVehje Absolutely, the tire is the single most important element of any rolling form of transport. Without a tire, we can't move & for sure we won't stop - Mechanics 101. But why are we so quick to judgement that the appropriate offroad tire won't fit? Is there proof or just innuendoes, rumors &or otherwise? Ok I'll play this game & say lets assume that a 18x3 offroad tire won't fit. How 'bout a 2.5" wide offroad tire? Yes I can already hear the arguments on the cons of a 2.5" vs 3" but I'm sure there's an argument in reverse as well. So all hope isn't lost & let's just wait til the rice is cooked before we go yea or nay.

Again you're absolutely correct that great suspension does not a great rider make. And I'm not looking to be a competitive MTB'r to shave off secs or even mins. I just wanna do the same trails & similar like they do. And I'll be doing it at my pace & hopefully having fun. Already got a commuter wheel for the boring stuff is alls I'm saying. Maybe the S18 will turn out to be a dud or maybe not but we won't know til we actually try & do it. Alls we're doing now is speculating & postulating. I hope we all can agree on that.

End of the day, we really don't know if having suspension on a unicycle will be the best thing since sliced bread as its never been done before (atleast commercially).  Alls I know is I can't name one single form of motorized transport that does not have suspension but please feel free to correct me on this. If suspension isn't vital for offroading, then no MX bikes will have it nor will any other offroad vehicle. No mfgr will bother to add costs & weight if there' no significant benefit.

At least that's what I see factually in real life.

Edit: FWIW I'm not trying to compete or be a MTB wannabe. It's just that the logistics are already there for MTBs. Why build a new mouse trap when a great one is there for the taking. 

Edited by Scottie888
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

I would claim that a right tire is much more important for off-roading than suspension. 

You might also state that left wing is more important for a bird than the right wing.

They help with different kinds of obstacles, suspension is for bumps, knobby tire is for low traction surfaces. Suspension does not help with traction just as much as tire does not help bumps.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, B08AH said:

They help with different kinds of obstacles, suspension is for bumps, knobby tire is for low traction surfaces. Suspension does not help with traction just as much as tire does not help bumps.

 
 

? ...this is wrong on both counts. Suspension does significantly help with traction by increasing the time when the tire is in contact with the riding surface. And air-inflated tires do significantly help with bumps--in fact they are the primary part of a vehicle that does so, even before any suspension.

Edited by AtlasP
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think @B08AH meant that on a smooth/ideal surface the tire dictates how much traction you have and the suspension determines the size and speed that you can take obstacles. But yes, @AtlasP , the functions for each aren't so simple in many real-world conditions, the tire is expected to dampen the initial impact with an obstacle and how well the suspension can keep the tire in contact with the ground will dictate how fast you can take a bumpy turn, for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...