King Song S18 Discussion

[Mark Wilson]

8 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I aim to prove you wrong. It will replace my MSX as a hard core off-road wheel. The YT clips on V11 at steep inclines alone are very assuring. And for example braking power that trumps the S18’s.

 

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

No-one who has ridden the V11 demo unit has called the suspension “mediocre”. Furthermore, the shocks have been upgraded for the production version, to which some reviewers have commented that in some situations the difference to the S18 was nonexistent.

I'm still guessing that the S18 will be better for fast (use Chooch as an example) off-road use or even medium speed with big bumps/jumps. Seems like the V11 (with its better and smoother motor) will do better at slower speeds and hill climbing. Hopefully Chooch will get the final production V11 to test at some point. I'd like to hear his point of view.

[.....]

42 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

When each battery cell reaches 3.3V, GW considers the battery empty and will force the rider off with a tilt-back. At the same time 18XL still shows about 25% battery left, and will let the rider ride at above 40km/h.

 

Not good enough, so you opt for an even worse solution?  I don’t quite see the logic.

I haven’t seen anyone mention about this after riding the V11. This is most probably not an issue, the pedal column should stop the shoe before it can reach the housing.

I aim to prove you wrong. It will replace my MSX as a hard core off-road wheel. The YT clips on V11 at steep inclines alone are very assuring. And for example braking power that trumps the S18’s.

No-one who has ridden the V11 demo unit has called the suspension “mediocre”. Furthermore, the shocks have been upgraded for the production version, to which some reviewers have commented that in some situations the difference to the S18 was nonexistent.

The V11 has the same exact tire (CST C-1488) than the MSP.

Sounds like you haven’t watched many V11 reviews. Evx’s direct comparison for example. KS has a long way to drag the S18 out of the ditch the demo unit is in.

Worth mentioning that almost all V11 specs on the comparison have since been upgraded for the production version. 85mm, 2200W, 55km/h, 2.5A. And neither wheel will have the H-666 tire.

So what you're REALLY saying is... You have spent money on the v11 and EVERYTHING you compare with the s18 at this point, is justification for why you chose what you did? I've spent money on the s18, so I am interpreting most of what we've seen, in a different light. I can however concede that each has its strengths (based on reviews) and weaknesses. I won't bother correcting any of your assumptions with mine, as we are obviously seeing a little bit of 'buyers bias'. Hell, anything I interpret is also bias. I can see how someone would opt for a proven non suspension wheel, over a suspension wheel that they arent excited about. No need to roll the dice and take the chance, if what you win is not quite as much as you want. I can definitely see how a lot of people will pass over this first suspension design and buy something else. Suspension wheels have to compromise on some areas, to accommodate suspension. If a person isnt thrilled over the suspension itself, why make the compromise? Makes sense to wait it out until you see a design that excels in expectations. Im not sure that arguing against every single point that someone else has, does much good. Being the s18 thread, I'm expecting to see mostly bias in that direction anyhow. Until either of us get to ride both back to back, we are merely blowing smoke anyhow. Even then, we may both place different value on different things. I can concede that NEITHER wheel is better than the other in ALL areas. Personally, Im focusing on the suspension. If we want to compare range, I'll just drag out the Sherman. If we want to compare dependability and simplicity, I'll drag out the 18L. I wont even pretend to think that ANY of these wheels, beats the others in all areas.  It all boils down to compromises. DO we want a wheel that does most things very well? DO we want a wheel that lacks in some areas but decimates in others? I know we want it all, but no matter which wheel we buy and how hard we try, it aint going to happen. Inability to accept that each wheel MAY be better than the other in certain areas, undermines our opinions at the very least.

Edited July 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So what you're REALLY saying is...

A bit sensitive are we? Let’s not go down that path again. I referred to reviewers’ opinions and what is now known as the production version upgrades. The S18 was never even on the table for me, so I have no need to find justification to have chosen otherwise. And I don’t think I even mention any assumptions on either wheel. Not that I wouldn’t have any of course.

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I can see how someone would opt for a proven non suspension wheel, over a suspension wheel that they arent excited about.

Absolutely, and for the vast majority of people it’s what they should do for a good while forward. My comment was to the quoted phrase alone.

[B08AH]

4 hours ago, buell47 said:

But if you want a faster wheel as the 16X and no downgrade in offroad capabilities, there is actually no way around. 

compared to S18 all the wheels are a downgrade in offroad. According to what Chooch says anyway.

Edited July 18, 2020 by B08AH

[Scottie888]

45 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

....Worth mentioning that almost all V11 specs on the comparison have since been upgraded for the production version. 85mm, 2200W, 55km/h, 2.5A. And neither wheel will have the H-666 tire.

There's no doubt to me that on paper at least, the V11 is THE BETTER all round wheel with longer range for sure. Although that quip on the 3.3v shutoff by GW while the KS still shows 25% power might give the S18 a more usable range than the ah numbers show.

As of now, all we have are pre-production units & the impressions of a select few. That said, I have seen what Chooch put the S18 thru in his vids but I've only seen the V11 do the normal lazy trails so perhaps the V11 is just as capable but that remains to be shown. On paper atleast, the S18 is 10lbs lighter & most of it is unsprung weight. While 10lbs might seem to be minor, it actually has a significant impact as unsprung weight. The suspension needs to move much less mass & hence will react quicker. The shock will not only last longer but small settings adjustments will have a much larger effect, at least in theory. Otherwise, F1 (& other organizations with massive budgets) won't spend kazillions R&D'in exotic materials. Any suspension engineer worth his/her salt can tell u the effects of lessening unsprung weight even if its just grams (atleast in hyper competitive F1).

As any good auto/race engineer will tell u that all things being equal, HP is easy. Losing weight is the hard part & hence the the exotic unobtainium. Besides this, I also like that the shock is out there in the open for easy adjustment & can also grow with me should I exceed its capabilities. The S18 opens up an entire realm of choices should one have the need.

The lesser weight + lower height & smaller overall pkg should (in theory) make the S18 easier to dial in the flow for handling loams, berms, gnarls, boosters, gaps & whatever "in" terms for MTBs😆. Heck the better suspension may make the difference btwn loosing & saving a crash.

Last but not least, I really really like the aesthetics of the S18 while the tall bulbous (almost gourd like) V11 does nothing for me. Indeed the V11 only emphasis my age while the S18 make me feel (dare I say) hip & "pimp" to quote the youngsters. Pure vanity I know but hey, I'm only human,

End of the day, we can only speculate for now. The real battle truly begins when these machines are put thru the pace in the hands of actual enthusiast wheelers.

[B08AH]

47 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If we want to compare range, I'll just drag out the Sherman. If we want to compare dependability and simplicity, I'll drag out the 18L

If we want suspension, we get S18. 

And V11 is not the best in any area. But it is not the worst in any area either. It is just another strategy that can be called "not loosing". As opposed to "winning" strategy.

[B08AH]

7 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

On paper atleast, the S18 is 10lbs lighter

Unfortunately, only about 5lbs lighter. 

[.....]

26 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

There's no doubt to me that on paper at least, the V11 is THE BETTER all round wheel with longer range for sure. Although that quip on the 3.3v shutoff by GW while the KS still shows 25% power might give the S18 a more usable range than the ah numbers show.

As of now, all we have are pre-production units & the impressions of a select few. That said, I have seen what Chooch put the S18 thru in his vids but I've only seen the V11 do the normal lazy trails so perhaps the V11 is just as capable but that remains to be shown. On paper atleast, the S18 is 10lbs lighter & most of it is unsprung weight. While 10lbs might seem to be minor, it actually has a significant impact as unsprung weight. The suspension needs to move much less mass & hence will react quicker. The shock will not only last longer but small settings adjustments will have a much larger effect, at least in theory. Otherwise, F1 (& other organizations with massive budgets) won't spend kazillions R&D'in exotic materials. Any suspension engineer worth his/her salt can tell u the effects of lessening unsprung weight even if its just grams (atleast in hyper competitive F1).

As any good auto/race engineer will tell u that all things being equal, HP is easy. Losing weight is the hard part & hence the the exotic unobtainium. Besides this, I also like that the shock is out there in the open for easy adjustment & can also grow with me should I exceed its capabilities. The S18 opens up an entire realm of choices should one have the need.

The lesser weight + lower height & smaller overall pkg should (in theory) make the S18 easier to dial in the flow for handling loams, berms, gnarls, boosters, gaps & whatever "in" terms for MTBs😆. Heck the better suspension may make the difference btwn loosing & saving a crash.

Last but not least, I really really like the aesthetics of the S18 while the tall bulbous (almost gourd like) V11 does nothing for me. Indeed the V11 only emphasis my age while the S18 make me feel (dare I say) hip & "pimp" to quote the youngsters. Pure vanity I know but hey, I'm only human,

End of the day, we can only speculate for now. The real battle truly begins when these machines are put thru the pace in the hands of actual enthusiast wheelers.

Haha, I was thinking that exact thing a moment ago. The v11 reminds me of that older gentleman that buys an exceptional vehicle that is a damn fine machine in all areas, yet doesnt seem to care that its not the highest performance for off-road.

Then there's the teenage s18 that reminds me of the guy who could care less about leather seats and auto leveling. You know, the kid who hyper focuses on ONE thing and allows the rest to take the compromise. I would be awfully pissed if i had to trade my supermoto in for a hard tail with springs on the pegs instead!

Some us us look at a wheel and we want the entire package with focus on many details. Others of us look at a wheel and want it to do one thing BEST and dont give a rats ass about many of the other refinements that may be lacking. It IS ironic that the more 'refined' wheel (v11), is also the one that will be more risk and effort to make adjustments. Of course if a person isnt worried about micromanaging the suspension, he may not care at all and be just fine with a set and forget approach.

Edited July 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Steef Klonoa]

Does anyone know what to expect with road salt in the winter on this wheel? Should it just be avoided entirely or can we get away with using it in those conditions?

[.....]

No idea, as NONE have gone thru a single winter yet. Once can assume that salt would be a concern, but how knows? The v11 is enclosed, the s18 has a hugger fender. I'm wondering this myself, along with what can we expect for maintenance and wear. I don't think ANYONE has an informed answer on this one. Im sure we have TONS of guesses tho. Welcome to the wonderful world of euc. A world where a consumer gets to buy an item and find out things that a company has neglected to bother checking for. I'll probably be hosing my s18 down all the time, as I suspect lotsa mud and sometimes creeks. Salt could be far worse, but Im sure Ill know VERY soon, if it can handle an OCD person who breaks shit and gets it dirty for fun, only to overly maintain and fix it later.

Edited July 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Steef Klonoa]

@ShanesPlanet I guess my biggest concern would be the exposed cabling, if salt gets jammed in there and eats away at those cables. I've taken my Z10 through road salt no problem, because houseofjob said its no big deal.

[.....]

13 minutes ago, Steef Klonoa said:

@ShanesPlanet I guess my biggest concern would be the exposed cabling, if salt gets jammed in there and eats away at those cables. I've taken my Z10 through road salt no problem, because houseofjob said its no big deal.

Valid concern, but I dont see any exposed cabling. ALL cabling is in its sheath of course, I'd assume that some is protected even further. Waterproof is waterproof and wires that are covered or coated, usually are. Lets just hope its quality sheathing so it doesnt exhibit cracking and undermine my entire point. I think I'd be more concerned about gaps that allow water into the shell or pcb area. Now the PCB area surely has exposed wiring, as its a board with solder points. I highly doubt KS has gone thru tremendous lengths to coat everything. I'd imagine they are trying to keep the water out and make channels for it to drain. Of course, draining water with SALT in it, is a different thing.  Quality of wire may have a lot to do with how easily it corrodes in salt conditions. We've all seen cheap ass wire  oxidize and migrate well beyond the point of where its exposed.

You have very valid concerns, but I just don't know how we can make much assumptions, beyond the obvious. Since I didnt see any salt testing and have recently changed materials and coatings, I'd say its a total crapshoot. I do know that if salt is a BIG problem, we will find out and complain asap. Lotsa of canadians and Yankees to test this, LONG before their warranty is over. The wires are a concern, but also is the sensors and circuit in total. For now, I'm going to just assume its going to be fine, and look at it a LOT, as I assume it won't be.

Edited July 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Mark Wilson]

Does anyone know the specs on the shock in the S18? I was going to look at what other options there are just out of curiosity but I watched a video that said you needed to know several things before changing a mountain bike shock. It said you needed to know:

1. the eye to eye length

2. the stroke (amount of travel)

3. size of the mounting hardware (this is apparently sold separately)

The video for anyone curious: https://youtu.be/IuEKG5R1NuQ

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

Although that quip on the 3.3v shutoff by GW while the KS still shows 25% power might give the S18 a more usable range than the ah numbers show.

On KS wheels the shut off / 0% voltage varies a bit, and as far as I know it will be 3.15V on both the S18 and the V11. 18XL was a rare one going down to 3.0V.

Quote

On paper atleast, the S18 is 10lbs lighter

The production version weight difference of 2kg translates to 4.4lbs.

Quote

I also like that the shock is out there in the open for easy adjustment & can also grow with me should I exceed its capabilities.

The V11 shock has been identified and someone mentioned that there are higher quality replacements available as well.

Quote

The real battle truly begins when these machines are put thru the pace in the hands of actual enthusiast wheelers.

Unless it will be delayed, the S18 preorders should arrive here in early to mid August. I’m in a lucky position of having the chance to compare one head to head to the V11 in an off-road scenario once they do. I should have my review up before the end of August, but I would think that some off-roaders will beat me to it.

2 hours ago, B08AH said:

If we want suspension, we get S18.

I tend to be disappointed whenever I choose anything based on one-liners, assumptions or generalizations like that. I hope you won’t be.

Quote

if salt gets jammed in there and eats away at those cables.

I don’t think salt can do much to the cables themselves. The motor cable’s support spring and other metal components may be another matter though.

[Scottie888]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The production version weight difference of 2kg translates to 4.4lbs.

Not doubting your numbers here but where did u see only a diff of 2kg? Every site I've gone to to check the S18 specs says there's a diff of 10lbs btwn both.

[Mark Wilson]

Just now, Scottie888 said:

Not doubting your numbers here but where did u see only a diff of 2kg? Every site I've gone to to check the S18 specs says there's a diff of 10lbs btwn both.

The weight you are probably looking at is for the preproduction models.

[Scottie888]

1 minute ago, Mark Wilson said:

The weight you are probably looking at is for the preproduction models.

Fair 'nuff. So how where did we get the number of 2kg btwn both?

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Fair 'nuff. So how where did we get the number of 2kg btwn both?

The S18 production version has a few parts changed to steel instead of aluminum, upping the total weight to 25kg. V11 is 27kg.

[Scottie888]

20 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The S18 production version has a few parts changed to steel instead of aluminum, upping the total weight to 25kg. V11 is 27kg.

Again, my query is the same. Where how is that number stating factually? Also didn't the V11 also have some final production changes as well with one of them being the upping of 2000w motor to 2200w? Do we also have the factual weight of the V11's final production unit?

Not trying to up 1 or down the other but I'd like to know where the numbers being thrown out are coming from as all. Thanks

edit: Anyhoos to the S18 afficiandos, I wouldn't lose sleep over this even if its factually true. I checked into the S18 update & I believe they said the bottom house of the quad tubes hold the wheel to the suspension will be SS instead of Al alloy. If true, then the additional weight wouldn't much matter as its sprung mass ie. the tube housing isn't directly attached to the moving wheel itself. I would be slightly disappointed if it were unsprung mass.

SS would be stronger than Al alloy so I'm kosher with that.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Scottie888

[jmsjms]

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Those who know the electronics and the case structure of the S18 here - how simple or complex would it be to add custom accent LED lighting like some motorcycles have behind a panel in each side to light everything up?  Is there sufficient space to keep them hidden?  Could this be hooked in somewhere to automatically light when the machine is turned on without having a secondary switch?  This and a wrap job will be sick...I see the ability to customize this in a bad ass way and want to immediately get to work when I receive in August.   
 

It would be great to wrap up the whole thing with USB. Yet, gotta stay away from the shock absorber and wheel to prevent a mess. Amazon has some wrapping USB lights but I don't think you can pre-charge them. The lights are on only when the USB is plugged.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=wrap+around+led+lights+usb&ref=nb_sb_noss

Edited July 19, 2020 by jmsjms

[vgambit]

Does anyone know if the S18 will come with or support a seat? I'm considering upgrading from my 18S, but I really like being able to sit and rest my legs anywhere.

[Steef Klonoa]

@vgambit I've heard no mention of a seat so far, but you can always diy

[Scottie888]

56 minutes ago, vgambit said:

Does anyone know if the S18 will come with or support a seat? I'm considering upgrading from my 18S, but I really like being able to sit and rest my legs anywhere.

I could always be wrong but I doubt there'll be a seat option for this particular wheel. The 1100wh battery ensures this won't be a long range missile. If I were u, I'd keep the styrofoam that holds the top of the wheel in the original packing. U can make a mould from that or perhaps mod the foam & cover it with PU or other similar material to use as a seat.

[Jon Stern]

12 hours ago, EUChristian said:

I’ve been biting my tongue, but I can’t hold it in any longer. That looks like crap to me.

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

I’ve been biting my tongue, but I can’t hold it in any longer. That looks like crap to me.

Me too. I just grabbed a stock image from google.