King Song S18 Discussion

[Patton250]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I dont see that at all. They both seem to be so vastly different to me. I havent spent a single brain cell on the idea that the sherman is nearly as capable in the woods as the s18.  Don't get caught up in comparing them, I think they will both be great but for very different reasons. I am assuming that I'd much rather ride my s18 up the mountain for a short off road adventure. I mean hell, even picking the sherman up from a ditch= 70lbs! Is anyone hopping UP curbs on the sherman? Hows it do when you come to a big log in the woods?  If the lure of speed and range is your idea of excitement, your choice should be obvious. If manageable weight, suspension and general offroad mayhem is your excitement, I'd think the sks18 would be more your flavor.  I was shopping for a long range wheel, a while ago. Sorry, but the gotway monster didnt have me impressed for quality. WHen the sks18 came out, I preordered it immediately. I do think I'll have more 'fun adventure' on the sks18 than the sherman. I also think I'll just cruise the shit out of the sherman. Both enjoyable, but not nearly the same(rally car vs suv). One wont replace the other i dont think. Dig deep, recycle some cans and polish off those old pimping skillz.... daddy needs new wheels

You might want to watch Marty and Ian’s reviews of the Sherman. I’ve watched hundreds of wheel reviews from many different people and I have never seen anything like this. Granted I’ve only been doing this for three years so perhaps there is a wheel prior to 2017 I’m unaware of that made a bigger impact. The S18 has the same motor as the 18XL (the upgraded motor) and 16X right? So no big improvements there. Also the battery seems to be heavily complained about by all you guys. I don’t particularly care about that. So the only thing new and it is a big deal, is the shock system. To be honest I am very interested to see how that works but I also have the V 11 on order and that has a more powerful motor and better battery. So I’m leaning on just getting the Sherman and the V11. 

[fryman]

10 hours ago, Jj Luo said:

This is the response I got from Ewheels.

"We do have a 780Wh King Song battery bank in stock, which if used with the S18 would get you up to 1890Wh, for $650. It would be carried in a backpack and trickle charge the main batteries.  

on some models, like the Inmotion, the moment you plug in the power, it cuts the motor. King Song permits you to charge-on-the-go. 

 

For the question about the rate of charge, relative to consumption, it's rated for 3A x 84v = 252W, anything excess of this & you'll be operating in 'deficit mode'. It should not affect the battery longevity at all.  "

 

 

For those who are interested in the KS external battery, check out Monsieur Flex's review.

Lets get the batteries on the wheel. Hopefully V2

[iode]

Charging while riding is almost certainly a compromise, especially in the S18, where the charge port is in the front, which means having the cable tether dangling in front of you - not very attractive. Charging while riding on the S18 will also mean you lose any and all weather proofing/moisture protection because you're lifting the rubber flap in order to access the charging port, now you've basically exposed the entire electrical system to water, all the while riding forwards, making it worse (rain/wind pushing moisture directly into the unit). I can't even imagine taking a fall with the wheel charging, the risk to damaged pins and the charge port might be ugly. All in all, it's a risky proposition to charge while riding, the most common use case I can see are folks charging while taking a break.

[Zopper]

5 minutes ago, iode said:

All in all, it's a risky proposition to charge while riding, the most common use case I can see are folks charging while taking a break.

Depends. I certainly wouldn't do it while offroading, but I can imagine plugging in while on a paved and smooth road that goes on an on and the biggest risk is getting my neck burned by the sun.  

[EUChristian]

Companies have been trying to build the perfect car for years. Never happened. Every car has trade offs - my favorite being you can have a fast car or a reliable car, but never both. 
 

Wheels are the same. You are always going to make a trade because a wheel can only be big enough to keep between your legs. The Sherman sounds awesome. It also weighs a ton and braking is horrible - that’s the trade for that amount of battery power. 
 

With the S18 you are trading battery power for a suspension. I accept that trade off. I cannot for the life of me can’t understand why we keep coming back to this. The V11 is not the “Easy” answer to this either as I’m sure someone will say. You get marginally more battery for a less responsive suspension. If the decision was easy there would be no thread. It’s all what you are willing to place priority on. 
 

I really, really wish I could get 35MPH out of this wheel. That is my only point of contention. I will say there is no reason why you couldn’t make a coding change - it has the necessary power. 

[mrelwood]

 

13 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

The V11 is not the “Easy” answer to this either as I’m sure someone will say. You get marginally more battery for a less responsive suspension.

I agree with your post, other than more than one third being “marginal”. I don’t know what the S18 throttling behavior or 0% voltage will be, but the V11 behavior should quite easily match the 1600Wh MSX in range. Even KS can’t get “marginally” close with a 1110Wh battery.

13 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

If the decision was easy there would be no thread. It’s all what you are willing to place priority on.

That is absolutely true.

[B08AH]

On 7/8/2020 at 4:22 AM, EUChristian said:

but I don’t think of it as gold, and I think the majority of people who see it wouldn’t call it gold either

I like to think about it as "orange anodized aluminum", somehow it is not as unattractive as "faux gold" even though the color is the same.

Had they painted it black, what metal would they try to falsify then?

[mrelwood]

 

4 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Had they painted it black, what metal would they try to falsify then?

Haha! Black metal! I’d be into a progressive color scheme though... 

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I agree with your post, other than more than one third being “marginal”. I don’t know what the S18 throttling behavior or 0% voltage will be, but the V11 behavior should quite easily match the 1600Wh MSX in range. Even KS can’t get “marginally” close with a 1110Wh battery.

That is absolutely true.

Let’s agree to wait and see how marginal or not marginal it is. Good call on voltages. Good critique and I agree - let’s get some real numbers. 

[David Noel]

 

[.....]

16 hours ago, Patton250 said:

You might want to watch Marty and Ian’s reviews of the Sherman. I’ve watched hundreds of wheel reviews from many different people and I have never seen anything like this. Granted I’ve only been doing this for three years so perhaps there is a wheel prior to 2017 I’m unaware of that made a bigger impact. The S18 has the same motor as the 18XL (the upgraded motor) and 16X right? So no big improvements there. Also the battery seems to be heavily complained about by all you guys. I don’t particularly care about that. So the only thing new and it is a big deal, is the shock system. To be honest I am very interested to see how that works but I also have the V 11 on order and that has a more powerful motor and better battery. So I’m leaning on just getting the Sherman and the V11. 

Oh I've seen most the reviews. I have a Sherman AND S18 pre-ordered because of them. I think I will enjoy them both for vastly different uses and reasons. Just as I find joy in my 18 and mten, for vastly different reasons. Tho the Sherman is considered a leap, is it really? Im not knocking it and am SO EXCITED about the possibility of keeping up with headroom and range to spare. But, is it REALLY something new? Its an 80lb balanced box with lotsa batteries, a decent motor and a cage. It got some extra polish and durability built in, but nothing really NEW. The suspension models BOTH bring something new to the game tho. I am really looking forward to seeing what the s18 is going to do in the rough ass woods. For some reason, I can somewhat guess what the sherman is going to do on the street.  I have NO IDEA the overlapping areas of these wheels. Perhaps the s18 will be a much softer and complacent ride on the street, but lacking range and speed (compare to the sherman). Perhaps the sherman will torque up a mountain like a beast, but lack the agility and finesse that I can get with the s18. Hell, maybe my old 18L will still reign king as simple, minimal, MUSIC, reliable and a basic goto?  I am equally excited to get both, but i must confess that the v11/s18 are definitely something newer in design, than the Sherman.

[onizukagto]

I think S18 is the perfect secondary EUC or one who purely ride for pleasure. 

I doubt anyone will ride the s18 as the only EUC and as a daily commuter (but i'm sure someone will prove me wrong. lol) 
Which is fine, its looking to be a great off-road EUC.

V11 is a different beast, which i won't go any further here but easy to understand from the points above. 

[.....]

6 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

I think S18 is the perfect secondary EUC or one who purely ride for pleasure. 

I doubt anyone will ride the s18 as the only EUC and as a daily commuter (but i'm sure someone will prove me wrong. lol) 
Which is fine, its looking to be a great off-road EUC.

V11 is a different beast, which i won't go any further here but easy to understand from the points above. 

I think KS and Inno should team up and give ALL forum members a buy one get one free deal for $2k. Buy the s18, get the v11 free. Buy the v11, s18 on the house.  Done and done, easy peasey. Hell, that would help get the word out too, right? With ANY luck, I'll get my new wheels, JUST in time to see how the tires do on snow...

Edited July 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

With ANY luck, I'll get my new wheels, JUST in time to see how the tires do on snow...

H-5102 tire with a small clearance? Yeah, I know how it does on snow... It doesn’t.

[FinRider]

3 hours ago, onizukagto said:

I think S18 is the perfect secondary EUC or one who purely ride for pleasure. 

I doubt anyone will ride the s18 as the only EUC and as a daily commuter (but i'm sure someone will prove me wrong. lol) 
Which is fine, its looking to be a great off-road EUC.

V11 is a different beast, which i won't go any further here but easy to understand from the points above. 

I would love to prove you wrong! I intend to use my EUC (currently a ks16c) as my commuter once I return to work after my summer vacation. I will be upgrading the ks16 so I am waiting to get some real world feedback on these new suspension wheels before I commit to one.

atm I am leaning towards the s18. I get 40 km out of my 680wh ks16... and it has done more than 10.000 km.. so adding 400-some wh and I should easily see 60+ km from the s18, which is plenty for me.

i would argue that the s18   Would be perfect as your primary EUC as it most likely is a very good commuter AND should excel at off-road pleasure riding. The same arguement can be said for the v11 as well.. it probably is even better as a commuterand more than capable for the off-road pleasures.

exciting times are ahead of us, thats for sure!

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

atm I am leaning towards the s18. I get 40 km out of my 680wh ks16... and it has done more than 10.000 km.. so adding 400-some wh and I should easily see 60+ km from the s18, which is plenty for me.

I think there are a few crucial parameters missing from your calculations.

1) Speed. You would get closer to the 16C consumption per km if you rode at the same speed. But trust me, you won’t! 25km/h is scary on the 16C, while it feels slow on any 18” EUC. Increasing the speed increases the consumption exponentially.

2) The modern, much harder riding modes alone take a noticeable slice from the range, as the wheel uses more power to consistently keep the pedals flat on big and small road imperfections.

3) A heavy and powerful 18” wheel will in itself require more power to run.

4) S18 operating voltage range hasn’t yet been confirmed, but based on the recent KS winds, I’d expect 3.15V per cell as the zero point. Your 16C goes down all the way to 3.0V.

5) The rolling resistance of a 18x3” tire is higher than that of a 16x2.125”, already because the large tire has to be pumped to much lower pressure for the same feel and comfort.

 Since there are so many parameters involved, it’s impossible to say whether the S18 range would be enough for you. But be prepared that it might not be.

Edit: As an example, when I went from 840Wh to 1600Wh (= 190%), my range at similar riding purposes increased from 40 to 55 km (= 138%).

Edited July 10, 2020 by mrelwood

[Zopper]

10 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Edit: As an example, when I went from 840Wh to 1600Wh (= 190%), my range at similar riding purposes increased from 40 to 55 km (= 138%).

I'm going to second that. When I went from Inmotion V5F @288Wh to V10 @650Wh (change to 225%), my range (to empty battery, really I ride just to 30%, so about 2/3 of the numbers) changed roughly from 22 to 37 km (160%). Both wheels get a lot of tiltback riding. Yes, if I need more range, I know how to get it (lower speed and pedal sensitivity and softer ride). After all, my girlfriend gets about 30 km range from the V5F while still getting the tiltback, but she doesn't ride as hard, and if we are riding together, my range gets magically enhanced. :-)

As the official V10 range is up to 70 km and the V5F is 35 km I think, I get about 62% of official range on the V5F, but just 52% on the V10. The S18 and V11 are both about the same power rating as the V10, but with the higher speed of V11 and suspension that lets me ride faster than I can do now on small bumps, I guess my range will drop bellow 50% (to 45% maybe?) of the advertised. 

[B08AH]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I agree with your post, other than more than one third being “marginal”.

However it does not translate to one third of extra range. Unless you count in that "go home" mode, where you can ride it at walking speed.

Marginal does actually make sense.

[B08AH]

6 hours ago, onizukagto said:

I think S18 is the perfect secondary EUC or one who purely ride for pleasure. 

That depends on everyday range that you have. If it is anything like mine - 10-15km everyday, 50-80km weekends, then S18 is the perfect primary everyday wheel.

I'm keeping 16X to use on those long weekend rides (for backup anyways), however getting back on regular wheel without suspension might become a real pain.

[AtlasP]

How bizarre that now everyone wants to talk about range at stupid-low speeds while sidestepping throttling percentage (when in the past the first thing everyone brought up about earlier InMotion wheels was that they throttled so early/aggressive).

The thing that matters is Un-throttled Wh (I propose 'UtWh'), or how much battery you have to play with at/near its advertised speed before it can no longer sustain those speeds and essentially downgrades itself to a lower class of wheel until recharged.

• The S18 with only 3p will have to throttle at 50% (or possibly higher as some on this forum have claimed the newer 16X firmwares start throttling closer to 60%), which means it has at most ~555 UtWh (1110 Wh * .5).
• Meanwhile the V11 is guaranteed 50km/h all the way down to 30%, which means it has ~1050 UtWh (1500 Wh * .7).

The bottom line is that the usable, Un-throttled Wh of the V11 is basically double the S18 (~1050 vs ~555) if you consistently ride in the upper 20s mph.

(I would love a slightly more sophisticated formula for this idea that takes into account the amount of voltage each wheel will drain to, although which would only change things by less than 5-10% But either way I think the overall concept of something like UtWh is not only sound but more meaningful/useful than merely Wh without throttling taken into account.)

Edited July 10, 2020 by AtlasP

[B08AH]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The modern, much harder riding modes alone take a noticeable slice from the range, as the wheel uses more power to consistently keep the pedals flat on big and small road imperfections.

Btw, about small bumps. When wheel hits the bump, it has to propel it all up, motor, battery, you. All that energy is subtracted from the wheel rotation and then controller has to dispense corresponding amount of energy to compensate for that loss. 

With suspension however, only the motor is propelled upwards, which translates to much smaller loss of energy. Which in turn, theoretically, should result in considerably higher power efficiency of suspension wheels.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by B08AH

[B08AH]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

1) Speed. You would get closer to the 16C consumption per km if you rode at the same speed. But trust me, you won’t! 25km/h is scary on the 16C, while it feels slow on any 18” EUC. Increasing the speed increases the consumption exponentially.

obviously, faster more powerful wheels, regardless of diameter, will let you spend the charge quicker. It does not mean you have to.

Edited July 10, 2020 by B08AH

[Rywokast]

11 minutes ago, B08AH said:

obviously, faster more powerful wheels, regardless of diameter, will let you spend the charge quicker. It does not mean you have to.

you dont have to... but its no fun if you dont lol, 25 km/h on a 14" wheel feels pretty fast.. 25 km/h on an 18"+ wheel will make me fall asleep

[Patton250]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Oh I've seen most the reviews. I have a Sherman AND S18 pre-ordered because of them. I think I will enjoy them both for vastly different uses and reasons. Just as I find joy in my 18 and mten, for vastly different reasons. Tho the Sherman is considered a leap, is it really? Im not knocking it and am SO EXCITED about the possibility of keeping up with headroom and range to spare. But, is it REALLY something new? Its an 80lb balanced box with lotsa batteries, a decent motor and a cage. It got some extra polish and durability built in, but nothing really NEW. The suspension models BOTH bring something new to the game tho. I am really looking forward to seeing what the s18 is going to do in the rough ass woods. For some reason, I can somewhat guess what the sherman is going to do on the street.  I have NO IDEA the overlapping areas of these wheels. Perhaps the s18 will be a much softer and complacent ride on the street, but lacking range and speed (compare to the sherman). Perhaps the sherman will torque up a mountain like a beast, but lack the agility and finesse that I can get with the s18. Hell, maybe my old 18L will still reign king as simple, minimal, MUSIC, reliable and a basic goto?  I am equally excited to get both, but i must confess that the v11/s18 are definitely something newer in design, than the Sherman.

Well let me put it this way since I don’t think you understood where I was coming from. If I were an American combat pilot in 1960 and a new fighter jet came out and Chuck Yeager after flying it for a few days said that it was the greatest jet he had ever flown by far and everyone who knew him and had been watching him for years saw excitement coming from him they’ve never seen before I would probably take his opinion pretty seriously. Well Marty and Ian are the Chuck Yeagers of the EUC community in my opinion along with Kuji of course. After watching dozens of reviews on other wheels from all these men I’ve never seen their reaction to wheel like they have reacted to the Sherman. So when you ask is it really something new? My answer is,,,,,, um yeah. It’s the fastest wheel both in acceleration and top end speed with the biggest battery. It also seems to be the most durable with the most powerful headlamp. That is a lot of “news”. Lol. Not to mention it’s a brand new company. So there is one more “new”. The only thing new about the S18 is the shock which I must admit seems to be pretty freaking awesome. Other than that there is nothing new on that wheel. I too have all three new wheels on order and I will actually get the V11 next week. However I’m most excited about the Sherman. I’m pretty depressed I have to wait until August to get it. 

[B08AH]

13 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

The only thing new about the S18 is the shock which I must admit seems to be pretty freaking awesome.

This is a revolution compared to evolution. Sherman's +10kmh is a marginal improvement over existing gotway wheels (even though it needs progressively more power).

Suspension is not a marginal improvement, it is a game changer. Even though it is slower and has less range, it still makes all those faster wheels obsolete.

Quote

Other than that there is nothing new on that wheel.

also the metal frame. It does not contribute to speed and such, but it has to be much more solid, has to be the first wheel to allow heavy riders do one-legged riding without tire rubbing on bent shell.

Edited July 10, 2020 by B08AH