Deciding between MSP and Nikola+

[Dan Hillary]

Looking to upgrade to higher top speed from a 16X, but torque (for braking power) is really important to me. The Nikola's torque is perhaps not as good at the 16X, but they're definitely in the same class. I'd originally discounted all 18" wheels, but the MSP's torque looks really impressive! I also need to try sitting on both of them to see how comfy they are (without a seat; it's just another thing to carry around). I routinely squat down on my 16X for a rest.

MSP Pros: 18" wheel, comfy at high speeds. Could add Nikola pedals later, I think. Probably fast enough.

Nik+ Pros: Bigger, flatter pedals, better trolley handle. Flatter top surface for sitting. A liiiittle bit faster.

Anyone tried both and has any input?

Edited March 13, 2020 by Dan Hillary

[mrelwood]

Like most riders, it seems like you might be confusing the feeling of torque with the actual maximum available torque.

An 18” wheel will always require more effort to brake and accelerate, in a form of a stronger lean. This is due to the physical size of the tire, not because of wheel specs.

If you want the wheel to stop quickly without making a deep squat or using another specific technique, do not buy a 18” wheel. Simple as that.

The MSX and especially MSP are very powerful wheels, so they can be accelerated and braked very fast. But in order to utilize the power, one must lean more than one would with a smaller wheel. Many shorten that fact to just ”bad acceleration/braking/torque”, which is quite misleading.

[Dan Hillary]

23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Like most riders, it seems like you might be confusing the feeling of torque with the actual maximum available torque.

An 18” wheel will always require more effort to brake and accelerate, in a form of a stronger lean. This is due to the physical size of the tire, not because of wheel specs.

If you want the wheel to stop quickly without making a deep squat or using another specific technique, do not buy a 18” wheel. Simple as that.

The MSX and especially MSP are very powerful wheels, so they can be accelerated and braked very fast. But in order to utilize the power, one must lean more than one would with a smaller wheel. Many shorten that fact to just ”bad acceleration/braking/torque”, which is quite misleading.

I've got no problem with doing a deep squat or even grabbing and pulling the handle backward to force an emergency brake. I'm very confident in my 16X not allowing me to "overlean" backwards when doing so, so I want to compare the capabilities of these two wheels to that end. To more specifically ask, using your wording: I'm very specifically asking about maximum available torque.

That and ass-on-shell sitting comfort are my top criteria.

[mrelwood]

That is a very different quest then than the usual ”torquey” feel that people long for.

I don’t think there is even a real possibility of over-braking either the Nikola or MSX/MSP. Perhaps none of the current performance wheels for that matter (Z10 not included). There might be a difference in stability when doing so though.

Anyway, I don’t think a possibly slightly better braking power of the MSP would overcome the cons for you.

[Dan Hillary]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

That is a very different quest then than the usual ”torquey” feel that people long for.

I don’t think there is even a real possibility of over-braking either the Nikola or MSX/MSP. Perhaps none of the current performance wheels for that matter (Z10 not included). There might be a difference in stability when doing so though.

Anyway, I don’t think a possibly slightly better braking power of the MSP would overcome the cons for you.

Appreciate the input! I'll have to reach out to some local riders and let my butt decide, then. 🤪

[RockyTop]

@Dan Hillary your comment on grabbing the handle and pulling back to brake reminded me of something that I noticed on the KS16X.  While the pedals are wider on the 16X they are not as long front to back as many other models. At least with the MSX and Nokola you have that extra inch of pedal that makes it feel like it has more torque. As someone else mentioned, With my big feet, I feel like I am going to fall off the front of the 16X.  

[xorbe]

I am watching this thread with keen interest, as I already had and sold a KS16X.  I'd like to try either the MSP or Nikola+, but I'm not sure which to get, as it's just a wheel for fun.  (I tend to grab the Tesla for daily usage, I don't see that changing.)  I never really mind melded with the 16X, I don't know if was something specific to the wheel, weight [distribution], or gotway vs kingsong tuning, etc.  But I'd like to try one more big wheel.  I'm thinking maybe MSP, just because Nik+ is 16X-ish, ie the MSP is more different than what I had, but I'm open to suggestions.

Edited March 14, 2020 by xorbe

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

I never really mind melded with the 16X, I don't know if was something specific to the wheel, weight, or gotway vs kingsong tuning, etc.  But I'd like to try one more big wheel.

You really must get to try them in a meet or a shop!

If you had a single or a simple issue, like ”too twitchy” or ”feels lazy”, it would be easy to recommend a wheel with less of that. But since riding is a specific feeling we crave for, there’s no shortcut to trying the wheels oneself.

While the 16X and Nikola share the tire size, to me the Nikola felt much more like an MSX than a 16X. The Tesla and V8 also share the tire size (and Lhotz/V10F ), but they are rarely even recommended at the same time. The firmware tuning is that important.

Nikola is easier to recommend than the MSX/MSP though, due to comfort and the trolley.

[RockyTop]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

If you had a single or a simple issue, like ”too twitchy” or ”feels lazy”, it would be easy to recommend a wheel with less of that. But since riding is a specific feeling we crave for, there’s no shortcut to trying the wheels oneself.

That is so true. What I like others don't like. 

If I remember right, Your first ride on the MSX was disappointing but it seemed to grow on you quickly. 

[mrelwood]

56 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

That is so true. What I like others don't like. 

If I remember right, Your first ride on the MSX was disappointing but it seemed to grow on you quickly. 

It sure was, but growing on me required a good amount of filing, padding, and extending, a tire replacement, and a lot of riding. Now I can’t imagine another unit that I’d rather ride.

The new wheel behaviour is indeed always strange, so even a test ride can only tell that much. One just have to imagine wether it could grow on you or not. Usually they do though.

[RockyTop]

19 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It sure was, but growing on me required a good amount of filing, padding, and extending, a tire replacement, and a lot of riding. Now I can’t imagine another unit that I’d rather ride.

Gosh!, I guess it would be more accurate to say that you grew on it.     

[Scottie]

1st time poster here.

This thread caught my eye along with another one ... "KingSong 16X vs Gotway MSP", but I would like to respond and ask a question here.

I just learned to ride an EUC (and it goes without saying ... 'still learning') and have finally reached the point after a couple months of practice that I'm riding around until the feet need a short break for a few minutes after about 20 minutes of steady riding. I got started with the 16X because I'm a bit of a heavyweight, between 230 to 240 pounds, and was pretty sure the torque and King Song firmware would take care of me. These past couple of weeks of almost daily riding, I could see my skills greatly improving each ride, which put me in a comfort zone that let me head off for an adventure ride around town. I still avoid traffic and other people as much as practical, and I'm still not at ease when approaching 20 mph. 15 mph or so seems fine to me for now. So the 16X being my 1st wheel had me adapting to its style; quick acceleration and deceleration, fairly sharp and quick turning.

After I was up and going on the 16X and past the point of wondering if I was ever going to be able to ride, I started looking at other wheels. I like different types of cars, just for the differences ... variety. So I went for the 84V Monster. What a different ride that is! It impressed me with its stability. But that stability forces a more flowing style of riding. After a couple of hours of riding the body adapts to what the Monster wants, a more fluid, flowing style. Where the 16X does what you want right now, the Monster says, " wait a second". And I like that style too.

This is the most physical fun I've had for a few years. I enjoy bicycles too, but they don't have the 'newness' factor. I'm addicted now, so I put in a deposit for the MSP for when it becomes available. I'm almost certain it will have a personality between a Monster and 16X, but favoring a 16X due the torque I imagine it has.

My answer to this thread is that I would want both the Nikola and MSP, for the variety. The Nikola seems 16X-ish, says my imagination, a quick handling torque wheel, that sacrifices some stability. But, if for reasons that allowed only one choice, I would probably end up with an MSP because, for me, it is right in the middle of the spectrum I've experienced.  

I know there are many factors involved, such as cost, space, city vs suburbs or country living, etc. that drive wheel decisions. But for you guys that have the space and can afford the cost, do you prefer multiple types of wheels or do you bond with one model regardless and become hyper-tuned to it? From what I've seen on the forum, many folks have multiple types of wheels. Do you appreciate the differences and admire each wheel for what it is? No one wheel has it all, but maybe the MSP comes closest.

 

[xorbe]

Yeah, two wheeled things all seem very similar to me (scooters, bicycles, motorcycles) and I've had several (4+) of each.  But EUCs, each once so far rides distinctly.  Of the 4 I've owned, none of them ride/handle like the other.  I think that's the draw for owning multiple wheels, and they don't take up too much space, when organized properly.

I too decided that I will buy the MSP before the Nikola.

[mrelwood]

Wheels are indeed mostly very different, but more importantly to me they serve different purposes. Since I personally don’t have need for other purposes, I’ve been fine with using just a single model for 10000+km.

I don’t do tricks, I rarely ride in the city, I don’t take the wheel to a bus or a train, and I rarely need to lift the wheel. I always ride longer distances, and often off road, so the MSX has been a very good fit for me. The upcoming Inmotion with suspension might change that though...

My first thought on the Nikola was that it rides exactly like the MSX, just with a different shell (and nicer pedal angle). But it didn’t feel more agile or accelerate with less effort, although the riding mode was likely harder than the soft I’m using. To me they are too similiar to complement eachother.

[Dan Hillary]

I put in a deposit on the MSP from eWheels.

I think it's fast enough for me, I'm really excited about the stability of an 18x3" wheel WITHOUT any sacrifice to torque, the eWheels order comes with Nikola pedals, and the $300 price difference was a factor as well.

Now to find an MSX to try sitting on...

Also, it looks like I'll be selling my 16X once the other $1498 of my bill comes in.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Dan Hillary