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Marty Backe

My MSP Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

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If we only allow the physical limitation of that moment, to determine the maximum output we can see, that would not allow us to train to know what to expect. I have no way of knowing what state of power my battery has at any given moment. Add to the fact that a battery and circuit changes over time becuase of: state of charge, previous discharge rate, time of recovery, temperature, age and many things I am just not a genius at (be gentle with me). If my maximum power output is determined by these factors and not limited, sometimes I would have more power than others. Headroom is what limiting offers. This headroom is what gives us a reference for maximum power. I would prefer to be limited rather than lulled in by power that is not readily available at most all times I assume it should be.

 

Most machines have internal limiters. These limiters protect the machine and the user. Many times a limiter has come in handy at the motocross track. Me (and others) are notorious for pushing too hard on a machine as we are busy focusing on winning or just throwing caution to the wind. Without limiters put in place by honest manufacturers, I would have surely blown the top end out of many motors while coming down the home stretch.  When dealing with batteries, im sure the limters protect both the battery, motor and user.  Imagine if there were no limiting on the euc and at about 40 mph you encounter a slight grade. You think nothing of it and BAM.. on your face. Without internal limiting, YOU would have to be the limiter. Im fairly certain that I am less aware of current circuit temps and battery sates, than firmware/sensor monitoring solutions.

 

I dont really know what we are defining as limiter or not. I would assume that theres a power curve that makes sure the wheel doesnt go into 100% power mode, from a dead stop. What if i leaned far forward at a stop and the unregulated power uprighted the wheel at such a speed, that my momentum pushed me back, then the wheel would fight against me, unlimitted, and cause the same thing. I think there are many power schemes and limiting is just part of the entire math of it all. I may be misusing the word and I may also be completely wrong. I assume that maximum power may not be limited from a dead stop, as a power curve does the actual limiting. I definitely think there is limiting at the top end (hence speed limits, regardless of which day your wheel model was made), as while traveling at speed up hill, you may already by using quite a bit of available power. Without limiting at the top end, you may find yourself a victim of an overlean state, when just moments before it worked just fine.  

 

I do think I am making this complicated, as I dont really know how to explain it well. Im also pretty good at just talking out my ass.  Hell, we may also be in agreement, totally. I do know that i wish my wheel would go faster at times. I also wish i could rely on it to give me every bit of power I expect, at all times. I also wish it would know when ive been riding uphill for a while at 20mph and need more climb but am already on my toes. Hell, I like the idea of being able to disregard the limits and push it until i fall on my face.  I would limit mine anyhow, just for dependability sake, but i do understand that we should be able to unlimit them and hurt ourselves if we want to. I am new to euc's but i can start to see why the need for more power is there. To be fair, when is enough power enough? This off-roading and mountain climbing, really puts a slam on underpowered wheels. At the end of the day, we are victims of battery tech, i think. Balances between speed, distance, weight, size and cost are all wrapped into one. Maybe the market will demand an X-games certified wheel, but i think legal issues and costs make it tough. Hell, theres no euc company in the usa yet ( i dont think). Maybe a massive, overpowered, over engineered and over priced euc could surface..  Of course, if onewheel is any indication of what to expect, I better be prepared to go back to a flintstones rock on a stick.

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10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The only wheel that has a gyro effect, to me, is the Z10.

Maybe because I ride 11 different wheels (and I do ride them all) I can no longer tell the difference??? The Nikola seems incredibly nimble and smooth with zero "gyro" effect, if I'm understanding the term.

The Z10 is the wheel where you have to lean your body up and over the side of the wheel when turning, and the wheel is kind of standing upright. I get zero sense of that with the Nikola. Maybe it's too subtle for me.

I suppose everyone who complains about the 16X (and now the Nikola) having a gyro effect should ride the Z10 for awhile :D 

So me coming from the Z10 to the Nikola Plus 1800Wh with 21700 cells, i'm gonna have a totally different experience!!!! :D 

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3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I have no way of knowing what state of power my battery has at any given moment.

In the case of an EUC, you do. Its called beeps, tiltback or a combination of both. Until those points are reached, max power is (and should be) available at all times (within hardware limits - more on that below).

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Without limiters put in place by honest manufacturers, I would have surely blown the top end out of many motors while coming down the home stretch.

A rev limiter on an internal combustion engine is in no way comparable to what happens in terms of power delivery within an EUC.

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

YOU would have to be the limiter.

In effect, you are on an EUC. Beeps and tiltbacks are only there to give you a heads-up. If you decide to drive through them (and you can on an MSX for example if the tiltback is turned off) then you are on your own. The wheel will continue to try its damndest to keep you upright, but you can quite easily carry on pushing it until it can no longer do so. Faceplant.

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I would assume that theres a power curve that makes sure the wheel doesnt go into 100% power mode, from a dead stop.

There is. Its you.

The only power restriction that should be built into EUC firmware is one to prevent catastrophic failure of components. There are temp sensors and hardware limits (wire diameters/mosfet sizes etc) have already been calculated and decided upon through trial and error. If those limits are not reached, full battery and motor power should be available at all times.

For most of us, modern wheels are not reaching max temps, nor are they catching fire from poor component sizing. So the 'final limit'  (the nearest thing comparable to your rev limiter) is never reached or activated.

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I am new to euc's but i can start to see why the need for more power is there. To be fair, when is enough power enough?

When a rider can go as fast and as hard as they want to without faceplanting :)

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@Marty Backe did you ride again msx after msp ?

what about pedal angle ? the difference is noticeable ? did you find msp angle better or not compared to the msx ? 

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5 hours ago, EMA said:

@Marty Backe did you ride again msx after msp ?

what about pedal angle ? the difference is noticeable ? did you find msp angle better or not compared to the msx ? 

Yes, I just rode my MSX yesterday. The pedal angles are the same.

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The MSP climbed a hill that only the MCM5 could climb :wub: That alone just put this at the top of my list. 

Is there still a normal beeper in case the speakers get ruined by rocks or sticks? 

The speed seems more than adequate for me. I'm used to cruising around at 23 to 24mph on the mcm5 which eats the battery up pretty fast. On these larger wheels those speeds should still give me range too!

Do you notice a difference in voltage drop with the 21700 batteries?

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13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Hard to quantify, but I had the sense that the voltage sag was less on the MSP. But I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it.

Yes, the beeper still exists. The sound module on all Gotway wheels can be thought of as a bluetooth speaker that was stuck in the wheel. There is no communications between the control board and the speaker system. So all control board feedback to the user is provided through the beeper.

Why no-one dumps the audio chip memory, replace the bytes of the annoying sounds with blank ones and reflash the chip, that would save us the trouble..

Have you heard anyone tampering with these things?

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I've asked around and wait for a probable solution for it. 

I'll report back soon 

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I saw a few recent Nikola owners posting that their new Nikolas do not make the loud bluetooth startup sound.

The reprogramming of the chip was discussed in the same thread where I posted the link to the $2 delay relay board:

 

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I'm gonna get my Nikola Plus 100V 1800Wh with 21700 cells in about 3 days so first things first I need to have some fun with the new wheel and then tamper with stuff.. 

Still waiting for a response from my contact about the bt thing. I'll check the thread you mentioned too.. Thank you 

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6 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

We've requested that GW disable the start-up sound in our production, however sometimes these requests are a hit-or-miss. 

 Latest update I had this morning was that the MSP production is delayed, some of GWs suppliers are still off, 7+ weeks counting, owing to the blasted virus concerns.  

Oh that's awesome. That explains why my Nik+ from ewheels do not have the annoying startup sound! Thanks a lot :lol:

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21 hours ago, D3m0nzz said:

The 21700 Nik+ that I got from you recently did not have the startup sound, so it seems like they are listening! 

Saaaaaaame. It was such a pleasant surprise. I had even warned my coworkers about how obnoxious the new wheel would be, but it's no worse than the MCM5

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On 3/2/2020 at 9:17 PM, D3m0nzz said:

The 21700 Nik+ that I got from you recently did not have the startup sound, so it seems like they are listening! 

Hope mine arrives like that.. 

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1 hour ago, Lefteris said:

Hope mine arrives like that.. 

Please let us know. Then we'll learn whether this is just a feature of EWheels supplied units or worldwide.

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