Riding your Wheel in France

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've been watching Paris EUC ride videos for years. They have hundreds of people riding. Have you seen Non-stop-Neil's recent videos, all shot around Paris?

You know, there are regulations and then there are regulations. All indications are that EUC related regulations are only payed attention to by uninformed bureaucrats like those talking to your son.

I really wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun and dump the KS18L. Sleep on it a bit and get some valued input from the French community here.

I hear you. The high concentration of wheels and riders is the reason I thought that it was okay to send the wheel in the first place. However,  it looks like the legislation is real; introduced 10/2018.It seems they will actually be voting on whether or not to enforce it in April of this year: 

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F308 

This is most likely the reason that no one in Paris is being accosted yet by the authorities; they have not yet been directed to enforce it.

In my son Jahi's case, it was the university authorities who accosted him about the wheel. The campus is of course private property, which I suppose gives them the right to ban mobile electrics. It was also they who advised him about the pending legislation for the whole of Paris. 

I sincerely hope that there will be no ban imposed come April. 

Having said that it is not the possible ban that may or might not happen motivating me to offload the wheel. The two main reasons are. 

1. To prevent negative repercussions for Jahi. Last thing I need is school authorities viewing him as a spoiled foreign anarchist with no appreciation or respect for French law and custom; nothing could be further from the truth. He is competing for a fellowship this summer. Don't want his chances ruined by the power of the pen  or opinion.

2. Return shipping costs to the US from France are highway robbery. The lowest rate I saw was somewhere too close to $700; no thanks. The return shipping cost alone would be enough to make me decide to offload the wheel.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Lutalo

[Lutalo]

On 2/8/2019 at 1:50 PM, Mimolette said:

EUCs (and all individual EVs save bikes) are officially banned from public roads, but absolutely no-one respect that. Even Lime / Bird etc scooters operate in Paris. The reason is mainly lack of regulations, and a new law is to go through parliament this spring (or so) that will allow EUCs (etc) on the bicycle tracks and limited to 25 km/h ( https://www.geovelo.fr/ for maps of that). I can't find an English source but the law proposition creates a new vehicle category called "NVEI" if you want to dig further.

There is a -lot- of "NVEI" on the streets of Paris and no-one will batt an eye if you stay on the bike path. ( Even outside but I wouldn't recommend)

translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgyronews.com%2Fles-nvei-deviendront-une-nouvelle-categorie-de-vehicule-2399

Right. But my son is a foreigner and I don't want him to become the victim of someone's prerogative to enforce. It is better he respect the law and return to riding wheels when he gets back to the USA.

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

The ONLY caveat I have is possibly the rental escooter boom of 2018 has pissed off enough Parisians that new laws have been introduced to crack down on stupid, selfish, irresponsible PEV  riders, which MAY catch EUC riders in the same net.

Exactly. They are supposed to be voting on whether or not to enforce the law in April 2019. We will see.

Either way, it's not a good look for my son Jahi. If he can't ride on campus he won't be riding much because that is his primary daily destination. 

[Lutalo]

8 hours ago, Coffee guy said:

@Lutalo, I want to assure you via my personal experiences (plural), that it's not likely your son will be hassled. Courtesy, respect, and strength in numbers are what EUC and most any electric vehicle riders in France in general, and Paris in particular have. I've been many times there, and 'no probs' by authorities. There are also several euc organizations in Paris, and I've ridden with them in the past.  These groups are passionate, and 'very' well organized.   By the way, I'm a native New Yorker living in Switzerland (5 yrs now). France is a hop n skip from me by car or train. And either of these transport ways are also problem free with EUC's.  I hope this adds some assurances for you and your son.  If you still have any doubt, have him contact any of these eWheeler groups for guidance. Till then, I wouldn't sweat it.

Thanks man. I am actually less concerned about the municipal authorities than the school authorities who raised the opposite of sugar about the wheel.

School is his primary destination from where he resides on his wheel. Sure there are other places to ride, but that makes it purely recreational and not particularly useful as a commuter device; the main reason I shipped it to him.

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

That is a bummer! I’ve seen videos of many  people riding around Paris. Hopefully some French riders on the forum can offer some guidance. I would hate to see you go through all of that trouble selling the KS18L only to find out the school authorities were misguided. 

They could be wrong about the eventual outcome, but there is legislation on the books introduced October 2018

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F308

I guess If they vote not to enforce in April everything will be hunky dory. I am actually less concerned (although quite concerned) about the municipal authorities citing my son than the school authorities raising an eyebrow and internalizing negative opinions of my son, Jahi. 

Anyway he has decided not to ride it anymore while there to reduce the risk of causing any damage prior to sale.

[Marty Backe]

27 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I hear you. The high concentration of wheels and riders is the reason I thought that it was okay to send the wheel in the first place. However,  it looks like the legislation is real; introduced 10/2018.It seems they will actually be voting on whether or not to enforce it in April of this year: 

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F308 

This is most likely the reason that no one in Paris is being accosted yet by the authorities; they have not yet been directed to enforce it.

In my son Jahi's case, it was the university authorities who accosted him about the wheel. The campus is of course private property, which I suppose gives them the right to ban mobile electrics. It was also they who advised him about the pending legislation for the whole of Paris. 

I sincerely hope that there will be no ban imposed come April. 

Having said that it is not the possible ban that may or might not happen motivating me to offload the wheel. The two main reasons are. 

1. To prevent negative repercussions for Jahi. Last thing I need is school authorities viewing him as a spoiled foreign anarchist with no appreciation or respect for French law and custom; nothing could be further from the truth. He is competing for a fellowship this summer. Don't want his chances ruined by the power of the pen  or opinion.

2. Return shipping costs to the US from France are highway robbery. The lowest rate I saw was somewhere too close to $700; no thanks. The return shipping cost alone would be enough to make me decide to offload the wheel.

Understood.

Boy, there are going to be a lot of upset Frenchman if this law goes through. Thank God I live in California, where at least as regards to EUCs, it's the land of the free.

Wonder how Speedyfeet manages to ship a Monster from England to California for ~$50.

Well, it's a great wheel so he should have little difficulty selling it.

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Wonder how Speedyfeet manages to ship a Monster from England to California for ~$50.

That's a secret the commoners will never know 

[gena]

This depends on how things happened as well.

If it is your son who came and asked the school authorities, then they have no choice but to advise against riding EUCs in Paris, since that is the law. Now, does that mean he is in trouble or can be in trouble? The answer in my opinion is no; french stundents are not expected to be very law abiding or more law abiding than any other citizen. In reality, university is where the youngsters are expected to question the laws, society and all that, in a "controlled" way ( through their studies, strikes, participation in political movements, etc ... ). Your son following the rules on euc that nobody else follows can be seen as a statement as well, in this context.

Now, if it were the school authorities that saw him with the wheel, and told him to stop riding it, then that is another matter. In that case, you are right, better not oppose them in any way.

My advice:

- let him see with his new local friends if he wants to rebel by riding eucs. "Il faut bien que jeunesse se passe" is all the authorities will say, unless asked officially.

- In any case, stop riding in the school premises, as that is their prerogative. And apparently they already made a statement (??).

By the way, what kind of school is this? university? grande ecole? lycee? If it is before the "baccalaureat", then definitely no euc riding, as he will be seen as "spoilt foreigner" because he can afford a wheel.

Sourcing the wheel locally and reselling it afterwards can give you two advantages: the cost may be lower than shipping it back and forth, and you can delay your decision, since he might end up not wanting to ride an euc anyway, if for example none of his mates rides or the authorities are intent on enforcing the laws ( how dare they?  come on France, those yellow vests are only for safety!! ).

[Vanzen]

You can ride EUC in Paris.

There is some oficial local tolerance while waiting for the new law.

I understand your concerns as it is weird for someone from US to understand the leniency that is often showed by French police in so many cases. 

Something we French have to learn in reverse and take seriously when visiting US where law is THE law

Nobody was ever arrested or fined in Paris for riding a EUC. 

I oftten talk with Police on the streets and they are are alway very interested in EUC. In fact they wonder if it would make a good tool for law enforcment ... 

PS: there will never be a law banning EUC in France, no sir. Regulations sure, a must have. But a ban ? Cant happen.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Vanzen

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Vanzen said:

You can ride EUC in Paris.

There is some oficial local tolerance while waiting for the new law.

I understand your concerns as it is weird for someone from US to understand the leniency that is often showed by French police in so many cases. 

Something we French have to learn in reverse and take seriously when visiting US where law is THE law

Nobody was ever arrested or fined in Paris for riding a EUC. 

I oftten talk with Police on the streets and they are are alway very interested in EUC. In fact they wonder if it would make a good tool for law enforcment ... 

PS: there will never be a law banning EUC in France, no sir. Regulations sure, a must have. But a ban ? Cant happen.

I hope that you are are right. Regulations can be a good thing, but a ban? That would be a tragedy. 

[Smoother]

Well this has been a very interesting and enlightening conversation.  No real help to @Lutalo unfortunately.

This is a translation of the proposed French law as it pertains to EUCs:

"Its use is prohibited on public roads (sidewalks and traffic lanes).

Moreover, any dangerous behavior deliberately putting the life of others in danger can be punished with 1 year of imprisonment and 15 000 € of fine.

Use is permitted on private roads (for example, private property road, driveway of a private residence)."

It also applies to eskateboards, etc.  Pretty much anything with a motor EXCEPT ebikes.  ebikes are allowed on the road and bike trails only, no sidewalks; so no change there.

So, if this is approved, France will become like England.  And this is why I am relieved I am a lone wheeler wherever I go.  A lone wheeler attracts little attention, and is rarely seen (after all when I'm not riding, I'm unseen, and if I ride one day in town "A" I'm unseen in towns "B" "C" and "D" etc.  And even when I'm in town "A" i'm only on one street/path at a time, I'm not everywhere, and I'm not there all the time. And a lone rider can easily dismount (and lay the wheel down on it's side for stealth) or turn down a side street when 5-0 comes around the corner. Not so easy for a group to "disappear".

The day there are group rides in my area is the day I must find another area to ride, because the authorities and Mr. and Mrs. busybody can't ignore so many lawbreakers.

I may be wrong but I attribute all this new scrutiny and law making to the explosion of rent-able escooters last year.  With so many dim whits terrorizing the sidewalks of our major cities, people have been complaining in drovers, and the authorities have been forced to act.  So instead of escooters being our savior in terms of PEV acceptance, as some predicted, they have had the exact opposite effect.  Next years when all the escooter companies are gone (from most cities, not all), we, the lone EUC riders, riding our expensive, privately owned machines, carefully and considerately, will be left to face the wrath of all these new laws, and more importantly, the fact that Joe Public knows these laws and is quick to call the cops. And to make it worse, these laws will be there forever, because no one undoes a law that isn't being used, it just sits there on the books waiting to be cited by Officer "It's the law".] or Mr. and Mrs. busybody.

I recently said a Dualtron type scooter might be my next PEV, but I think, an ebike makes much more sense now. No one is going to degrade the laws against bicycles, they are too entrenched in society.

Reading what is happening in major Spanish cities (as a direct result of the rise of escooters) breaks my heart.  I remember 2 years ago when I could wheel anywhere in Barcelona, Benidorm, Sitges, Alicante, Torreveija, etc, and no one gave a damn.  Not any more.  When I return there I will be restricted to the point of making it uncomfortable to ride.

[Lutalo]

6 hours ago, gena said:

This depends on how things happened as well.

If it is your son who came and asked the school authorities, then they have no choice but to advise against riding EUCs in Paris, since that is the law. Now, does that mean he is in trouble or can be in trouble? The answer in my opinion is no; french stundents are not expected to be very law abiding or more law abiding than any other citizen. In reality, university is where the youngsters are expected to question the laws, society and all that, in a "controlled" way ( through their studies, strikes, participation in political movements, etc ... ). Your son following the rules on euc that nobody else follows can be seen as a statement as well, in this context.

Now, if it were the school authorities that saw him with the wheel, and told him to stop riding it, then that is another matter. In that case, you are right, better not oppose them in any way.

My advice:

- let him see with his new local friends if he wants to rebel by riding eucs. "Il faut bien que jeunesse se passe" is all the authorities will say, unless asked officially.

- In any case, stop riding in the school premises, as that is their prerogative. And apparently they already made a statement (??).

By the way, what kind of school is this? university? grande ecole? lycee? If it is before the "baccalaureat", then definitely no euc riding, as he will be seen as "spoilt foreigner" because he can afford a wheel.

Sourcing the wheel locally and reselling it afterwards can give you two advantages: the cost may be lower than shipping it back and forth, and you can delay your decision, since he might end up not wanting to ride an euc anyway, if for example none of his mates rides or the authorities are intent on enforcing the laws ( how dare they?  come on France, those yellow vests are only for safety!! ).

Grande école de commerce. He is pre-baccalaureat (undergrad). So my concern about him being viewed by the wrong people to piss off as a "spoiled foreign anarchist" is very real 🙂

[Lutalo]

14 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Well this has been a very interesting and enlightening conversation.  No real help to @Lutalo unfortunately.

This is a translation of the proposed French law as it pertains to EUCs:

"Its use is prohibited on public roads (sidewalks and traffic lanes).

Moreover, any dangerous behavior deliberately putting the life of others in danger can be punished with 1 year of imprisonment and 15 000 € of fine.

Use is permitted on private roads (for example, private property road, driveway of a private residence)."

It also applies to eskateboards, etc.  Pretty much anything with a motor EXCEPT ebikes.  ebikes are allowed on the road and bike trails only, no sidewalks; so no change there.

So, if this is approved, France will become like England.  And this is why I am relieved I am a lone wheeler wherever I go.  A lone wheeler attracts little attention, and is rarely seen (after all when I'm not riding, I'm unseen, and if I ride one day in town "A" I'm unseen in towns "B" "C" and "D" etc.  And even when I'm in town "A" i'm only on one street/path at a time, I'm not everywhere, and I'm not there all the time. And a lone rider can easily dismount (and lay the wheel down on it's side for stealth) or turn down a side street when 5-0 comes around the corner. Not so easy for a group to "disappear".

The day there are group rides in my area is the day I must find another area to ride, because the authorities and Mr. and Mrs. busybody can't ignore so many lawbreakers.

I may be wrong but I attribute all this new scrutiny and law making to the explosion of rent-able escooters last year.  With so many dim whits terrorizing the sidewalks of our major cities, people have been complaining in drovers, and the authorities have been forced to act.  So instead of escooters being our savior in terms of PEV acceptance, as some predicted, they have had the exact opposite effect.  Next years when all the escooter companies are gone (from most cities, not all), we, the lone EUC riders, riding our expensive, privately owned machines, carefully and considerately, will be left to face the wrath of all these new laws, and more importantly, the fact that Joe Public knows these laws and is quick to call the cops. And to make it worse, these laws will be there forever, because no one undoes a law that isn't being used, it just sits there on the books waiting to be cited by Officer "It's the law".] or Mr. and Mrs. busybody.

I recently said a Dualtron type scooter might be my next PEV, but I think, an ebike makes much more sense now. No one is going to degrade the laws against bicycles, they are too entrenched in society.

Reading what is happening in major Spanish cities (as a direct result of the rise of escooters) breaks my heart.  I remember 2 years ago when I could wheel anywhere in Barcelona, Benidorm, Sitges, Alicante, Torreveija, etc, and no one gave a damn.  Not any more.  When I return there I will be restricted to the point of making it uncomfortable to ride.

French EUC riders certainly have a fight coming. Thankfully,  there are a lot of them, and there is strength in numbers. 

[Smoother]

A few hundred riders in a city of 2.3 million, doesn't bode well.  The concerns of the many outweigh the demands of the few.  Authorities everywhere have a history of banning and restricting with a broad brush, to avoid having to deal with things in the future.  They also want to be re-elected.  Satisfying 2-300 over 2.3 million does not compute. They won't single out rentable escooters, or even escooters, anything motorized that isn't a conforming ebike will be swept up in this new law.  The police everywhere are stretched beyond capacity, and every country, county, state, city, town, is fighting to maintain basic services in the face of ever increasing budget cuts.  The western world is living on MASSIVE public debt.  Trying to satisfy a few hundred EUC riders does not even show up on the radar.

BTW, I had no idea Paris was so small.  By comparison London has an official population of 8.3 million, slightly less than New York

EDIT, but if local public policy is in support of reduced car traffic in favor of PLEV's maybe there's hope yet.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Smoother

[Vanzen]

Mayor of Paris told it many times ! 

She s in favor of reducing car traffic by all means, and EUC and Scoot are one of them, she said. 

The actual law already allow local arrangments decided by mayors.

The law you refer above is the actual law and not at all enforced whatsoever in Paris,  absolutely not the one coming up soon.

For exemple, since a few weeks all insurances compagnies are fighting vs each others to get the EUC market and all proposing contracts.

You think they would do that if a ban was on its way ?

The restrictions coming about EUC will be the ban on sidewalk, the speed limit to 25kmh and the enforcment of the insurance opbligation. Everyone aggree to that.

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Vanzen

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, Vanzen said:

Mayor of Paris told it many times ! 

She s in favor of reducing car traffic by all means, and EUC and Scoot are one of them, she said. 

The actual law already allow local arrangments decided by mayors.

The law you refer above is the actual law and not at all enforced whatsoever in Paris,  absolutely not the one coming up soon.

For exemple, since a few weeks all insurances compagny are fighting vs each others to get the EUC market and all proposing contracts.

You think they would do that if a ban was on its way ?

The restrictions coming about EUC will be the ban on sidewalk, the speed limit to 25kmh and the enforcment of the insurance opbligation. Everyone aggree to that.

 

Well I hope you are right, but being banned from the sidewalk forces one to ride with the traffic, and with a speed limit of 25kph, one is going to be continually forced to the side of the road by impatient, angry motorists.  None of these things I am prepared to do, as I would like to live to a ripe old age.

[Coffee guy]

History has shown us not to underestimate the French people. There is a storied history of what they do to their (s)elected officials. It's evident, even in these times to see what happens when the population gets pissed off.  Workers/people's rights are a national treasure there. (Vivre là France!)

[Smoother]

13 minutes ago, Coffee guy said:

History has shown us not to underestimate the French people. There is a storied history of what they do to their (s)elected officials. It's evident, even in these times to see what happens when the population gets pissed off.  Workers/people's rights are a national treasure there. (Vivre là France!)

Very true, one just has to observe the gillie jaun protests to see that.  But which "people" will prevail in this case?  The "wheel free or die" people, or the "get that shit off my streets" people?

Edited February 10, 2019 by Smoother

[Vanzen]

22 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Very true, one just has to observe the gillie jaun protests to see that.  But which "people" will prevail in this case?  The "wheel free or die" people, or the "get that shit off my streets" people?

Both ...

Get that shit off my sidewalk and feel free to die on the streets

[Smoother]

45 minutes ago, Vanzen said:

Get that shit off my sidewalk and feel free to die on the streets

excellent!!!

PS sorry about the rugby.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Smoother

[Alexela]

15 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I hear you. The high concentration of wheels and riders is the reason I thought that it was okay to send the wheel in the first place. However,  it looks like the legislation is real; introduced 10/2018.It seems they will actually be voting on whether or not to enforce it in April of this year: 

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F308 

This is most likely the reason that no one in Paris is being accosted yet by the authorities; they have not yet been directed to enforce it.

In my son Jahi's case, it was the university authorities who accosted him about the wheel. The campus is of course private property, which I suppose gives them the right to ban mobile electrics. It was also they who advised him about the pending legislation for the whole of Paris. 

I sincerely hope that there will be no ban imposed come April. 

Having said that it is not the possible ban that may or might not happen motivating me to offload the wheel. The two main reasons are. 

1. To prevent negative repercussions for Jahi. Last thing I need is school authorities viewing him as a spoiled foreign anarchist with no appreciation or respect for French law and custom; nothing could be further from the truth. He is competing for a fellowship this summer. Don't want his chances ruined by the power of the pen  or opinion.

2. Return shipping costs to the US from France are highway robbery. The lowest rate I saw was somewhere too close to $700; no thanks. The return shipping cost alone would be enough to make me decide to offload the wheel.

You should be much more relax with that, i live in Paris and ride everyday, there is no problem with EUC.

What is his university ?

[koto]

In our everyday life, there is no problem with EUC in Paris. Paris wants to promote EUCs, Electric Scooters, etc... The law should be defined this year but we have already heard about the main idea of the law. Sidewalk are only for pedestrians. EUCs should go on cyclist path and the road. Let's be patient.

[Mono]

8 hours ago, Vanzen said:

PS: there will never be a law banning EUC in France, no sir. Regulations sure, a must have. But a ban ? Cant happen.

It has happened hasn't it?

Les engins de déplacements électriques (hoverboard, gyropodes, monoroue, trottinette électrique) sont interdits sur les voiries publiques (trottoirs et voies de circulation).

I agree that it is hard to see that this law will be actually enforced. 

[Vanzen]

1 minute ago, Mono said:

It has happened hasn't it?

Les engins de déplacements électriques (hoverboard, gyropodes, monoroue, trottinette électrique) sont interdits sur les voiries publiques (trottoirs et voies de circulation).

I agree that it is hard to see that this law will be actually enforced. 

This is the actual law, not enforced almost everywhere and certainly not in Paris where "Lime and others" who are thriving would be outlawed ...

There is an other law on its way much more favorable to EUC etc ... 

[Mono]

10 minutes ago, Vanzen said:

This is the actual law, not enforced almost everywhere and certainly not in Paris where "Lime and others" who are thriving would be outlawed ...

There is an other law on its way much more favorable to EUC etc ... 

Though I think that we are to be banned from sidewalks, which I would personally find hugely annoying if it were actually enforced. I really, really don't like to mix with cars while riding the EUC.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Mono