Popular Post Seba Posted January 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2020 Dear EUCists, you may have impression that after updating to firmware 2.0 range of your wheel has decreased a bit. There are two explanations for this and the first is quite obvious. As new firmware makes a lot easier to accelerate, your ride will be more agressive and will drain battery a bit faster until your muscle memory adapt to new wheel behaviour. But there is also another explanation I would like to share with you. KS-18L/XL wheels with 1.x firmware was known to elevate both speed and distance by about 18 %. With 2.0 firmware this changed and the things are more weird now - speed is still elevated by 18%, but distance "only" by about 6 %. So as speed is still inflated by 18% (what makes KS-18L/XL real top speed at 41 kph / 25 mph), distance is much more realistic. This change may create impression that update caused 10 % decrease in range, which is simply not true. It's just change in the way distance is calculated by the firmware. Users of EUC World can apply -18 % distance correction to KS-18L/XL with 1.x firmware using "General settings" -> "Distance correction" to get real distance. Correction of -6% should be applied to KS-18L/XL updated to 2.0 firmware. Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) @Seba, since I've had -18% distance correction applied to my 18XL ever since you implemented the option, I can't say I've noticed much of a difference---only during the first couple of rides, when I was playing with the new torque like a child on Xmas day But it's good that you created this thread so people will be aware of this Edited January 31, 2020 by travsformation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Seba said: Dear EUCists, you may have impression that after updating to firmware 2.0 range of your wheel has decreased a bit. There are two explanations for this and the first is quite obvious. As new firmware makes a lot easier to accelerate, your ride will be more agressive and will drain battery a bit faster until your muscle memory adapt to new wheel behaviour. But there is also another explanation I would like to share with you. KS-18L/XL wheels with 1.x firmware was known to elevate both speed and distance by about 18 %. With 2.0 firmware this changed and the things are more weird now - speed is still elevated by 18%, but distance "only" by about 6 %. So as speed is still inflated by 18% (what makes KS-18L/XL real top speed at 41 kph / 25 mph), distance is much more realistic. This change may create impression that update caused 10 % decrease in range, which is simply not true. It's just change in the way distance is calculated by the firmware. Users of EUC World can apply -18 % distance correction to KS-18L/XL with 1.x firmware using "General settings" -> "Distance correction" to get real distance. Correction of -6% should be applied to KS-18L/XL updated to 2.0 firmware. Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected. @Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars. I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: @Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars. 1 inch more or less for an 18 inch diameter gives just an error of 5,5%. This could be an explanation for the distance error of ~6% with FWv2.0. But there is no explanation for an 18% speed error while distance is reported with only 6% error, but faulty programming. (Speed and distance are calculated with different constants from wheel rotation...) 12 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run... A millimeter off on an 18 inch diameter gives an error of 0.2%. The lenght of the ridden distance does not matter, as this is already a relative error. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, TomOnWheels said: @Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars. I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run... No, air pressure in fact has negligible impact on speed/distance measurement - I've tested this extensively. More, last winter I've been riding on Fiction Troop 18x2.3" tire (where factory one is 2.5", which translate into bigger circumference) and didn't noticed any real difference in distance. You can make an experiment - pump up your tire to 4 bar, start EUC World and start tour tracking. Ride for a 10 kilometers, then swipe main screen up and down, switching between EUC and GPS readouts. Write down both distances. Then release some of the air to get 2,5 bar and repeat entire ride. Share the results 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddolik Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) I'm afraid even few °C difference, or if you drank 0,5liter of water can make some difference in the 10km ride. Ofcourse it wont be 10% difference, but it might be 0,5% difference in total range. I am afraid you are never able to repeat absolutly same two rides Edited January 31, 2020 by Ddolik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 hours ago, Chriull said: 1 inch more or less for an 18 inch diameter gives just an error of 5,5%. This could be an explanation for the distance error of ~6% with FWv2.0. But there is no explanation for an 18% speed error while distance is reported with only 6% error, but faulty programming. (Speed and distance are calculated with different constants from wheel rotation...) A millimeter off on an 18 inch diameter gives an error of 0.2%. The lenght of the ridden distance does not matter, as this is already a relative error. yes... It's just hard to belive they are keeping this 'error' for such a long time without any fix... It almost looks like they a not making any difference between 18/16 wheels. Is the error the same on 16x ? Also right for relative error, I was just saying that this kind of error should be more visible on 10km ride then on 1km ride :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 "Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected." Why do you recommend keeping the speed uncorrected? This would provide a higher-than-normal speed readout in the app, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 44 minutes ago, D3m0nzz said: "Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected." Why do you recommend keeping the speed uncorrected? This would provide a higher-than-normal speed readout in the app, correct? If you only use EUC World, you can apply speed correction as this correction will be consistently applied both to speed readings, speed alarms and speed limit settings. But if for any reason you use other apps, speed correction in EUC World won't have any effect on other apps. Actually, this is the only reason. Another thing is having higher that real readings will add to riding safety and energy efficiency 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Perfect, I only use EUC world, so it shouldn't be a problem for me! I didn't realize that this applied to alarm triggers as well. This probably means that my alarms have been triggering about 18% sooner than they should have for the past 2,400 miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 @Seba Just to be clear. When the KS app says I am going 31 MPH and the wheel tilts, I am only going 25.42 mph? The EUC world app can be corrected to actual speed of 25.42 mph and the wheel will still tilt at 31? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 57 minutes ago, RockyTop said: When the KS app says I am going 31 MPH and the wheel tilts, I am only going 25.42 mph? Exactly. 58 minutes ago, RockyTop said: The EUC world app can be corrected to actual speed of 25.42 mph and the wheel will still tilt at 31? Speed corrections in EUC World are applied consistently, so if you set speed correction to -18 % your top tiltback setting will be 25 mph. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RockyTop said: @Seba Just to be clear. When the KS app says I am going 31 MPH and the wheel tilts, I am only going 25.42 mph? The EUC world app can be corrected to actual speed of 25.42 mph and the wheel will still tilt at 31? Wait, now I am confused. Is the KS native app inflating speed by 18% and giving us alarms at 25~ish mph, or is EUC World inflating speeds by 18%, or both? Either way, wouldn't reducing the speed shown by 18% allow for a higher top speed without tiltback? Edited January 31, 2020 by D3m0nzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 2 hours ago, D3m0nzz said: Wait, now I am confused. Is the KS native app inflating speed by 18% and giving us alarms at 25~ish mph, or is EUC World inflating speeds by 18%, or both? Either way, wouldn't reducing the speed shown by 18% allow for a higher top speed without tiltback? Both. The KS wheel is lying, saying that it is going faster than it is. The world app is correcting the lie but not increasing the top speed because that would cause the wheel to cut out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, RockyTop said: Both. The KS wheel is lying, saying that it is going faster than it is. The world app is correcting the lie but not increasing the top speed because that would cause the wheel to cut out. Oh that's fucked. So I can't go beyond 26 mph on my 18 xl without getting tiltback... Probably time for a Gotway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post travsformation Posted February 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 1, 2020 16 hours ago, D3m0nzz said: This probably means that my alarms have been triggering about 18% sooner than they should have for the past 2,400 miles No, they've been triggering exactly when they needed to trigger, just at a lower speed than you thought 12 hours ago, D3m0nzz said: Wait, now I am confused. Is the KS native app inflating speed by 18% and giving us alarms at 25~ish mph, or is EUC World inflating speeds by 18%, or both? It isn't about the app, but the firmware. The firmware reports wheel speed to the apps (all apps receive the same data from the wheel), the difference being that the KS app takes that data at face value while EUC World gives you the option to correct it as the wheel's firmware has been inflating it by 18%. 9 hours ago, D3m0nzz said: Oh that's fucked. So I can't go beyond 26 mph on my 18 xl without getting tiltback... Probably time for a Gotway. It's actually more of an abstract concept (IMHO) than anything that's going to affect your real-world riding. You'll be able to ride exactly the same as you have been until now, the only difference being that you'll get more realistic readouts. You've been perfectly happy with the wheel until now, haven't you? What's the difference? I found that on the 16X, when I'd check my speed expecting to get 40 km/h, I was actually riding somewhere around 33 km/h, which initially felt a little disappointing. But what's the difference, really? Speed is subjective, and I felt like I was going fast, so… The only real effect was on my ego, since I have no need to ride any faster than I have been until now 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 That's a very Zen way of looking at it Travs. I will try to see if I can take this sudden realization in stride as well 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkle pit Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 For you old hands: what kind of max range can I expect to get on an 18XL? If I'm averaging, say, 20 MPH? I'm in the market for an EUC and range is the primary factor. Sorry, not strictly on-topic but it's hard to find real-world figures for this stuff and this seems like an ok place to ask. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 On 2/4/2020 at 6:20 AM, tinkle pit said: For you old hands: what kind of max range can I expect to get on an 18XL? If I'm averaging, say, 20 MPH? I'm in the market for an EUC and range is the primary factor. Sorry, not strictly on-topic but it's hard to find real-world figures for this stuff and this seems like an ok place to ask. Thanks! The only real-world figures that can exist are the ones that you’ll measure yourself. It can be anything between 35 and 70 miles, depending on how and where you ride, temperature, tire pressure, amount of breaks, your weight, etc. What might get you quite close to a result is your current range. For example, if you get 25 miles on a 16S (840Wh), you should get almost 50 miles on the 1600Wh 18XL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker10 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Yea I am a little disappointed now too. I suppose that is why it takes me longer to travel a distance than I anticipated when looking at it on a map. I have had my warning beeps starting at what I thought was 25 mph but in reality is about 20 mph. Guess I will move the warnings up to 48 kmh now to get close to riding an actual 25 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Addict Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Just found this thread. I recently started using the app Strava to track my rides. It regularly records speeds 25-33 mph. When I saw the 33 mph I had my doubts as the 18XL is limited to 31 mph. However, I looked at my trip as tracked in Darknessbot and it also recorded 33 mph. This data doesn't jive with 18% speed inflation. Explanations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Addict Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Admittedly I didn’t believe this was true, so I went out and tested it. I marked off 50 ft. and timed how long it took me to cover the distance and compared the speed calculation with what Darknessbot was reading out. Not exact science but the difference was pretty much on the mark of 18% inflation. I then downloaded a GPS speedometer and compared its reading at 15 mph to Darknessbot. Darknessbot read a little over 12 mph. That’s roughly an 18% inflation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker10 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I am confused shwinston in your first post you said you are getting 33 mph. In the second post it looks like you say it is slow by 18%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Addict Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 @Joker10 on Strava and Darknessbot I got reading up to 33 mph. Oddly it was on the same ride. I can’t account for this, but today’s speed test would indicate I was really going about 27 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker10 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Ok I could not understand which it was that was accurate. I checked mine for accuracy against one of the radar signs that shows you that you are speeding. If you were getting 33 we were going to have to try and figure out how to make ours do the same speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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