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KS-18L/XL range difference between 1.x and 2.x


Seba

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@Seba, since I've had -18% distance correction applied to my 18XL ever since you implemented the option, I can't say I've noticed much of a difference---only during the first couple of rides, when I was playing with the new torque like a child on Xmas day :D

But it's good that you created this thread so people will be aware of this

Edited by travsformation
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2 hours ago, Seba said:

Dear EUCists,

you may have impression that after updating to firmware 2.0 range of your wheel has decreased a bit. There are two explanations for this and the first is quite obvious. As new firmware makes a lot easier to accelerate, your ride will be more agressive and will drain battery a bit faster until your muscle memory adapt to new wheel behaviour. But there is also another explanation I would like to share with you.

KS-18L/XL wheels with 1.x firmware was known to elevate both speed and distance by about 18 %. With 2.0 firmware this changed and the things are more weird now - speed is still elevated by 18%, but distance "only" by about 6 %. So as speed is still inflated by 18% (what makes KS-18L/XL real top speed at 41 kph / 25 mph), distance is much more realistic. This change may create impression that update caused 10 % decrease in range, which is simply not true. It's just change in the way distance is calculated by the firmware.

Users of EUC World can apply -18 % distance correction to KS-18L/XL with 1.x firmware using "General settings" -> "Distance correction" to get real distance. Correction of -6% should be applied to KS-18L/XL updated to 2.0 firmware. Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected.

@Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars. I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run...

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3 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

@Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars.

1 inch more or less for an 18 inch diameter gives just an error of 5,5%. This could be an explanation for the distance error of ~6% with FWv2.0.

But there is no explanation for an 18% speed error while distance is reported with only 6% error, but faulty programming. (Speed and distance are calculated with different constants from wheel rotation...)

12 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run...

A millimeter off on an 18 inch diameter gives an error of 0.2%.

The lenght of the ridden distance does not matter, as this is already a relative error. :D

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2 hours ago, TomOnWheels said:

@Seba don't you think that this difference is somehow linked to tire pressure ? My is 4 bars (as instructed in KS18L manual). Also most people are riding at around 2.5 bars. I think couple off millimeters less on the wheel diameter can explain this on a longer run...

No, air pressure in fact has negligible impact on speed/distance measurement - I've tested this extensively. More, last winter I've been riding on Fiction Troop 18x2.3" tire (where factory one is 2.5", which translate into bigger circumference) and didn't noticed any real difference in distance. You can make an experiment - pump up your tire to 4 bar, start EUC World and start tour tracking. Ride for a 10 kilometers, then swipe main screen up and down, switching between EUC and GPS readouts. Write down both distances. Then release some of the air to get 2,5 bar and repeat entire ride. Share the results :)

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I'm afraid even few °C difference, or if you drank 0,5liter of water can make some difference in the 10km ride. Ofcourse it wont be 10% difference, but it might be 0,5% difference in total range. I am afraid you are never able to repeat absolutly same two rides

Edited by Ddolik
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4 hours ago, Chriull said:

1 inch more or less for an 18 inch diameter gives just an error of 5,5%. This could be an explanation for the distance error of ~6% with FWv2.0.

But there is no explanation for an 18% speed error while distance is reported with only 6% error, but faulty programming. (Speed and distance are calculated with different constants from wheel rotation...)

A millimeter off on an 18 inch diameter gives an error of 0.2%.

The lenght of the ridden distance does not matter, as this is already a relative error. :D

yes... It's just hard to belive they are keeping this 'error' for such a long time without any fix... It almost looks like they a not making any difference between 18/16 wheels. Is the error the same on 16x ? Also right for relative error, I was just saying that this kind of error should be more visible on 10km ride then on 1km ride :-)

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"Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected."

Why do you recommend keeping the speed uncorrected? This would provide a higher-than-normal speed readout in the app, correct? 

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44 minutes ago, D3m0nzz said:

"Regardless of firmware version -18 % speed correction should be applied for these EUCs regardless of firmware version, but personally I recommend to keep speed uncorrected."

Why do you recommend keeping the speed uncorrected? This would provide a higher-than-normal speed readout in the app, correct? 

If you only use EUC World, you can apply speed correction as this correction will be consistently applied both to speed readings, speed alarms and speed limit settings. But if for any reason you use other apps, speed correction in EUC World won't have any effect on other apps. Actually, this is the only reason. Another thing is having higher that real readings will add to riding safety and energy efficiency :)

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Perfect, I only use EUC world, so it shouldn't be a problem for me! I didn't realize that this applied to alarm triggers as well. This probably means that my alarms have been triggering about 18% sooner than they should have for the past 2,400 miles :blink:

 

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57 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

When the KS app says I am going 31 MPH and the wheel tilts, I am only going  25.42 mph? 

Exactly.

58 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

The EUC world app can be corrected to actual speed of 25.42 mph and the wheel will still tilt at 31? 

Speed corrections in EUC World are applied consistently, so if you set speed correction to -18 % your top tiltback setting will be 25 mph.

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2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@Seba Just to be clear. When the KS app says I am going 31 MPH and the wheel tilts, I am only going  25.42 mph? 

The EUC world app can be corrected to actual speed of 25.42 mph and the wheel will still tilt at 31? 

Wait, now I am confused. Is the KS native app inflating speed by 18% and giving us alarms at 25~ish mph, or is EUC World inflating speeds by 18%, or both?

Either way, wouldn't reducing the speed shown by 18% allow for a higher top speed without tiltback?  

Edited by D3m0nzz
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2 hours ago, D3m0nzz said:

Wait, now I am confused. Is the KS native app inflating speed by 18% and giving us alarms at 25~ish mph, or is EUC World inflating speeds by 18%, or both?

Either way, wouldn't reducing the speed shown by 18% allow for a higher top speed without tiltback?  

Both. The KS wheel is lying, saying that it is going faster than it is. The world app is correcting the lie but not increasing the top speed because that would cause the wheel to cut out. 

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12 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Both. The KS wheel is lying, saying that it is going faster than it is. The world app is correcting the lie but not increasing the top speed because that would cause the wheel to cut out. 

Oh that's fucked. So I can't go beyond 26 mph on my 18 xl without getting tiltback...

Probably time for a Gotway. 

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For you old hands: what kind of max range can I expect to get on an 18XL? If I'm averaging, say, 20 MPH? I'm in the market for an EUC and range is the primary factor. Sorry, not strictly on-topic but it's hard to find real-world figures for this stuff and this seems like an ok place to ask. Thanks!

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On 2/4/2020 at 6:20 AM, tinkle pit said:

For you old hands: what kind of max range can I expect to get on an 18XL? If I'm averaging, say, 20 MPH? I'm in the market for an EUC and range is the primary factor. Sorry, not strictly on-topic but it's hard to find real-world figures for this stuff and this seems like an ok place to ask. Thanks!

The only real-world figures that can exist are the ones that you’ll measure yourself. It can be anything between 35 and 70 miles, depending on how and where you ride, temperature, tire pressure, amount of breaks, your weight, etc.

What might get you quite close to a result is your current range. For example, if you get 25 miles on a 16S (840Wh), you should get almost 50 miles on the 1600Wh 18XL.

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Yea I am a little disappointed now too.  I suppose that is why it takes me longer to travel a distance than I anticipated when looking at it on a map.  I have had my warning beeps starting at what I thought was 25 mph but in reality is about 20 mph. Guess I will move the warnings up to 48 kmh now to get close to riding an actual 25 mph. 

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  • 1 month later...

Just found this thread. I recently started using the app Strava to track my rides. It regularly records speeds 25-33 mph. When I saw the 33 mph I had my doubts as the 18XL is limited to 31 mph. However, I looked at my trip as tracked in Darknessbot and it also recorded 33 mph. This data doesn't jive with 18% speed inflation. Explanations? 

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Admittedly I didn’t believe this was true, so I went out and tested it. I marked off 50 ft. and timed how long it took me to cover the distance and compared the speed calculation with what Darknessbot was reading out. Not exact science but the difference was pretty much on the mark of 18% inflation. I then downloaded a GPS speedometer and compared its reading at 15 mph to Darknessbot. Darknessbot read a little over 12 mph. That’s roughly an 18% inflation.

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Ok I could not understand which it was that was accurate.  I checked mine for accuracy against one of the radar signs that shows you that you are speeding.  If you were getting 33 we were going to have to try and figure out how to make ours do the same speed.

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