Any tips on falling properly?

[redsnapper]

On 6/6/2020 at 2:06 PM, Marty Backe said:

Good advice and very practical when you can foresee a fall. Unfortunately some of my bad falls were unexpected and so sudden that I was impacting the ground before I knew what was happening.

I have successful fallen off the wheel with a roll but only when I anticipated that I might come off the wheel.

So it comes down randomness/luck.

Do you think this guy could have rolled? Wear your full face helmet when possible.

 

Thank you Marty for this great reminder - no amount of "falling skill" can save you from head injury in a scenario like this. It is so easy to slowly regress into a sense of invulnerability then opting for less protection. Seeing this on a regular basis helps to keep fresh the notion that your brain/teeth/nose/jaw are at serious risk if you fall at speed. My heart is pounding just thinking about the outcome of this fall had there been no full face ...

[winterwheel]

Anyone who wants to wear as much as gear as you want, have at it.

That said, full face helmets move the front of your 'face' several inches further forward than it actually is, making videos like this overly dramatic because there is no way to stop the extended front of the helmet from contacting the ground and causing the head to snap back much more than it would otherwise.

[Darrell Wesh]

51 minutes ago, amelanso said:

Thank you Marty for this great reminder - no amount of "falling skill" can save you from head injury in a scenario like this. It is so easy to slowly regress into a sense of invulnerability then opting for less protection. Seeing this on a regular basis helps to keep fresh the notion that your brain/teeth/nose/jaw are at serious risk if you fall at speed. My heart is pounding just thinking about the outcome of this fall had there been no full face ...

How old was the rider who face planted like that? After seeing that elderly man hit his head after being pushed by the police (despite taking numerous steps to almost stop the fall/have time to prepare for a fall) I think the #1 skill set in preventing head injuries is core strength and proprioception/ spatial awareness. 
 

If you haven’t seen this it’s sort of graphic but was aired on the news. 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

There’s zero chance a younger person would hit there head after such a push and stumbling backwards for so many steps.
 

Ever since I saw it it had me wondering what do we lose as we age that causes the body to not prevent the head from hitting the ground in such a non dramatic fall. In that faceplant video Marty shared, there’s no reason that should have happened. The riders body in such a forward facing position should have done its job to either rotate the body to initiate a roll or to turn the head to avoid a full on face hit. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[Rywokast]

15 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

There’s zero chance a younger person would hit there head after such a push and stumbling backwards for so many steps.
 

Ever since I saw it it had me wondering what do we lose as we age that causes the body to not prevent the head from hitting the ground in such a non dramatic fall. In that faceplant video Marty shared, there’s no reason that should have happened. The riders body in such a forward facing position should have done its job to either rotate the body to initiate a roll or to turn the head to avoid a full on face hit. 

yea i saw that video, and while not the first thing that came to mind.. i thought how in the hell do you hit your head or even fall AT ALL from a push like that.. when i think about being pushed i could imagine a big guy could tackle me as hard as he wanted and theres a slight chance i would even fall, and even if i did absolutely zero chance i would hit my head or be hurt in any way.. i have older brothers and male cousins and used to throwing each other around and pushing each other or wrestling all the time i cant imagine anyone ever being hurt from it.. but i think at a certain age which is different for everyone with both their physical and mental state where they just kind of lose their sense of balance, muscles fatigue and start to shrink, and your reflexes get slower.. like i have seen my granddad trip over a cord and come down, hes tripped and fallen in his own house numerous times whereas someone much younger if i trip i catch myself in an instant and would never hit the ground from it, same with any euc crashes while learning i ran out over a dozen crashes on my first euc taking it past the limit.. that being said i think none of this counts if youre going 40 kph+ because you have that inertia no matter your reflexes or skill level or speed you will 100% crash and hit the ground and it happens so quick and there is a lot going on that i can see smashing your face being almost completely out of your control, so i do absolutely see a place for full safety gear and helmet.. saying all that its funny how the mind works though, anyone who i have taught under the age of 30 their first time ever on it didnt want to wear any safety gear at all, like me, and in the same day they were riding beside me on trails and on the road... my parents on the other hand put on gloves and a jacket and a bike helmet to go like 5 kph on grass,, at least when they attempted both of them gave up after about ten mins and wanted to go inside lmao

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, winterwheel said:

Anyone who wants to wear as much as gear as you want, have at it.

That said, full face helmets move the front of your 'face' several inches further forward than it actually is, making videos like this overly dramatic because there is no way to stop the extended front of the helmet from contacting the ground and causing the head to snap back much more than it would otherwise.

Of course this is true. Just like when people crash and their helmet is all scratched up. The helmet makes their head inches bigger. Without the helmet their head may never have hit the ground.

This all seems like a distraction from the fact that a helmet, and a full-face helmet at that, will stack the odds in your favor of not requiring medical intervention.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Rywokast said:

yea i saw that video, and while not the first thing that came to mind.. i thought how in the hell do you hit your head or even fall AT ALL from a push like that.. when i think about being pushed i could imagine a big guy could tackle me as hard as he wanted and theres a slight chance i would even fall, and even if i did absolutely zero chance i would hit my head or be hurt in any way.. i have older brothers and male cousins and used to throwing each other around and pushing each other or wrestling all the time i cant imagine anyone ever being hurt from it.. but i think at a certain age which is different for everyone with both their physical and mental state where they just kind of lose their sense of balance, muscles fatigue and start to shrink, and your reflexes get slower.. like i have seen my granddad trip over a cord and come down, hes tripped and fallen in his own house numerous times whereas someone much younger if i trip i catch myself in an instant and would never hit the ground from it, same with any euc crashes while learning i ran out over a dozen crashes on my first euc taking it past the limit.. that being said i think none of this counts if youre going 40 kph+ because you have that inertia no matter your reflexes or skill level or speed you will 100% crash and hit the ground and it happens so quick and there is a lot going on that i can see smashing your face being almost completely out of your control, so i do absolutely see a place for full safety gear and helmet.. saying all that its funny how the mind works though, anyone who i have taught under the age of 30 their first time ever on it didnt want to wear any safety gear at all, like me, and in the same day they were riding beside me on trails and on the road... my parents on the other hand put on gloves and a jacket and a bike helmet to go like 5 kph on grass,, at least when they attempted both of them gave up after about ten mins and wanted to go inside lmao

 

4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

There’s zero chance a younger person would hit there head after such a push and stumbling backwards for so many steps.
 

Ever since I saw it it had me wondering what do we lose as we age that causes the body to not prevent the head from hitting the ground in such a non dramatic fall. In that faceplant video Marty shared, there’s no reason that should have happened. The riders body in such a forward facing position should have done its job to either rotate the body to initiate a roll or to turn the head to avoid a full on face hit. 

I hate to admit it, but even at my mild old age of ~60, I have noticed a slight decrease in balance when recovering from sudden force inputs. I don't think there's much mystery here. It's called the aging process. No matter how much you work out or eat well, your skin will wrinkle, hair will gray and thin, etc, etc.

So maybe the advice should be if you're under 40 don't bother with a helmet, but as you move up the age latter, add better head gear.

I do see a lot of very young active motocross type guys wear the head gear though, so I'm still going to error on the side of caution and recommend that people wear helmets 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Rywokast]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I hate to admit it, but even at my mild old age of ~60, I have noticed a slight decrease in balance when recovering from sudden force inputs. I don't think there's much mystery here. It's called the aging process. No matter how much you work out or eat well, your skin will wrinkle, hair will gray and thin, etc, etc.

So maybe the advice should be if you're under 40 don't bother with a helmet, but as you move up the age latter, add better head gear.

I do see a lot of very young active motocross type guys wear the head gear though, so I'm still going to error on the side of caution and recommend that people wear helmets 

on the flip side, i think euc riding, especially from someone as active as you.. is a great deterrent for the natural aging process, mentally and physically! dont get me wrong i dont ever advocate against helmets, theyre there for backup.. better to have it and not need it and all that  but normally i would say they are less important than gloves/wrist guards, knee guards etc when doing speeds below 40 kph

[Darrell Wesh]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't think there's much mystery here. It's called the aging process.

There is still key components of fitness that you lose that if dialed in could greatly reduce the liklihood of what that elderly man experienced. Core strength to maintain rigidity in the trunk after falling backwards would have allowed him to avoid hitting his head. The trunks function is to flex, think sit ups, so activating that reaction in the abdominals would have never let his head hit.

[Marty Backe]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

There is still key components of fitness that you lose that if dialed in could greatly reduce the liklihood of what that elderly man experienced. Core strength to maintain rigidity in the trunk after falling backwards would have allowed him to avoid hitting his head. The trunks function is to flex, think sit ups, so activating that reaction in the abdominals would have never let his head hit.

I mostly agree except you seem to dismiss the neurological aspects to balance and muscle responsiveness . But the aging process covers a spectrum. If not 75, 80, or 85. Your day will come 

[redsnapper]

Broken bones, scrapes & sprains can be a pita and take time to heal. But imo there are only 2 kinds of injuries on an EUC that can be really catastrophic - spinal and cerebral. These can totally F you up permanently. If you fall without a helmet on pave at 30kph (maybe even less) I think you have a not insignificant chance of a serious head injury that could change the trajectory of your life. I suspect that those who take this risk - myself included at times - do so without an appreciation of the true consequences of such an outcome. I am not aware of any EUC rider suffering such a fate and I can only hope it never comes to pass... 

[.....]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

 

I do see a lot of very young active motocross type guys wear the head gear though, so I'm still going to error on the side of caution and recommend that people wear helmets 

I wear helmets when doing any serious moto-cross. Piling into the front side of a triple jump, as you come up short at 60mph, isnt quite the same as falling off an euc. Its not common that you run into a brick wall at top speed on an euc, but if you did, a helmet would surely help.  A lot of moto-cross tracks REQUIRE helmets, so do sanctioned races. Bullshit helmet laws on street bikes in my current state, so I wind up using one on my supermoto....until I get into the woods .  Ankles, knees, shoulders and wrists are 100:1 more likely to be injured when I was riding on flat ground on bikes and skateboards. Somehow I manage to skip down the street and not drag the ole face much. I think the fact that euc, bicycles, skateboards usually end up with a bounce rather than a splat, is why those pesky moto-cross tracks were so bad. Angle of deflection in some extreme sports, is sometimes non-applicable when falling from the sky.

[JustChris]

I'm in the Emergency Room, right now, after a fall this evening. The doc says I have a mild concussion,  but that my helmet probably made all the difference. I hit the back of my head, just like the Buffalo protester, but the helmet saved me.

Even still, I need a CT scan to make sure I'm not dealing with hemorrhaging. 

All I can say is that I'm VERY glad I was wearing that helmet. I will replace it with an even better one.

[Daley1]

Most people have never seen a serious  head injury.Most people have never had a head injury.Most Euc riders are unlikely to get a head injury. But as u age ur body is less able to correct for a fall and we see more trauma in the elderly from falls than younger people,For the riders that fall,a helmet is a critical piece of gear.I argue that it is just as critical for younger riders as the long term prognosis can be catastrophic for younger people.Am i a wowser,"" maybe but i have seen people die from standing height falls,punchs to the head,motorbike/car  accidents and bike accidents,The ones that haunt me are the kids who go on to live with an acquired brain injury and have to live in an old peoples home or reside with people with special needs.If i had to ride with only one piece of gear its gotta be a helmet,but im an ATGATT guy! To much is not enuff!!!!!!!

[redsnapper]

4 hours ago, JustChris said:

I'm in the Emergency Room, right now, after a fall this evening. The doc says I have a mild concussion,  but that my helmet probably made all the difference. I hit the back of my head, just like the Buffalo protester, but the helmet saved me.

Even still, I need a CT scan to make sure I'm not dealing with hemorrhaging. 

All I can say is that I'm VERY glad I was wearing that helmet. I will replace it with an even better one.

Happy to hear things look good and that your helmet prevented a far worse outcome. Can you share any details on the fall? 

Speedy recovery to you!

[Rafal]

 

Any tips on falling properly?

just practice. Put as much protection as you can, ride slow, fall as much as you can in all kind of ways. 

Always when I crush big I do a shoulder roll. Something like below. I practice that a lot when I was younger age, and it helps me to crush properly on EUC.

 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, Rafal said:

 

Any tips on falling properly?

just practice. Put as much protection as you can, ride slow, fall as much as you can in all kind of ways. 

Always when I crush big I do a shoulder roll. Something like below. I practice that a lot when I was younger age, and it helps me to crush properly on EUC.

 

 

I don’t believe any of that stuff helps in a crash. There are always posts about how to fall and there’s always the guys advocating these parkour techniques and practices. 
 

Why won’t it work? Because these don’t build up the relevant muscles and neuromuscular pathways that will aid in a fall. Not to mention you’re literally planning to fall which doesn’t happen in an EUC crash. Every time you practice these you plan to fall. Your body never reacts automatically, which is what you need in a crash. 
 

I’ll say it again, but sprinting is the BEST exercise on the planet for crash protection. It positively stresses the core, increases power output, and increases reaction time. It increases spatial awareness because at full speed your body is running automatically, and any fast runner will tell you that time seems to slow down when running at full speed(a sign of high spatial awareness). Too often do I hear stories of how people were “on the ground before I knew what happened”, which is a byproduct of poor reaction time and awareness. 
All my falls felt like slow motion and I was aware of losing control no matter the speed (I’ve fallen at 33mph and I’ve cut out).

[JustChris]

7 hours ago, amelanso said:

Happy to hear things look good and that your helmet prevented a far worse outcome. Can you share any details on the fall? 

Thanks! CT acan showed no brain bleeding. 

I'm not really sure what happened. I was trying to ride up a very small curb (like a driveway gutter). There was grass beyond the curb, and somehow I went down almost instantly, flat on my back. I'm not sure if I just lost balance, or the wheel malfunctioned.

Due to the concussion, my memory of the event is very confusing and missing sections.

Bottom line, it knocked me silly. I kept asking what had happened, over and over, about 30 times. I also couldn't recall some recent major events in my life, which prompted others to call an ambulance.

Edit: I just talked to a friend who witnessed the fall, and it appeared to them that there was a loss of lateral traction due to having misjudged a bump in the grass beyond the gutter.

Edited June 10, 2020 by JustChris
Additional Info

[redsnapper]

2 hours ago, JustChris said:

Edit: I just talked to a friend who witnessed the fall, and it appeared to them that there was a loss of lateral traction due to having misjudged a bump in the grass beyond the gutter.

 If you had no corrective force from wheel as you started to lean back and the tire was in contact with the ground, sounds like a malfunction/cutout. Be doubly careful with speed and protection when you ride again in case of issue with wheel. Dunno if some of the veterans have ideas on how to eliminate wheel cutout as the cause of the fall etc.?

[TheBladeOfHades]

Hitting curbs at angles can lead to a pedal catching and the wheel instantly spinning out. 
happened to me at low speed, but I could imagine anything over10kph being crazy 

[MikieSWE]

On 1/24/2020 at 5:18 PM, Jonesq said:

Falling properly comes down to two things: 1) tuck and 2) roll.

Tuck means to tuck your head into your chest and shoulder. Your chin should be touching the inside of your shoulder and chest. If your chin is touching your right shoulder, you roll over your left shoulder. If your chin is touching your left shoulder you roll over your right shoulder.

Rolling allows you to reduce your speed while minimizing hard contact.

Here's a good tutorial of how to roll from a Krav Maga studio. The technique they use is similar to the rolls used in Aikido and Judo. It's easy to learn and anyone can do it.
 

 

A bit dangerous to tell this way is good. What happens in 18-20mph, when those two hands hit the ground, they end up where your knees are in a split of a second, and you hit your head in the ground instead.    what should be done.. just 'collapse' and let knee pads take the first hit. Try to get that 'roll' from there. Hands is in slow speed, but higher speed a no no. IMHO!  I been down few times, and getting a bit better. It feels awkward to hit a knee first... but it takes out a lot of the first impact face flat down. reaction time is what bothers me always. As soon I 'wake' up, something is happening, the options are limited and decision time less. Foot or knee hit first gives me split second more time. I dont know if Im clear to explain but I wish you understand.

[Darrell Wesh]

3 minutes ago, MikieSWE said:

A bit dangerous to tell this way is good. What happens in 18-20mph, when those two hands hit the ground, they end up where your knees are in a split of a second, and you hit your head in the ground instead.    what should be done.. just 'collapse' and let knee pads take the first hit. Try to get that 'roll' from there. Hands is in slow speed, but higher speed a no no. IMHO!  I been down few times, and getting a bit better. It feels awkward to hit a knee first... but it takes out a lot of the first impact face flat down. reaction time is what bothers me always. As soon I 'wake' up, something is happening, the options are limited and decision time less. Foot or knee hit first gives me split second more time. I dont know if Im clear to explain but I wish you understand.

You are clear. Knee first. Here is a video of Fantomas showing how to fall at speed. Barely any damage from a 50mph fall. 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

37 minutes ago, MikieSWE said:

A bit dangerous to tell this way is good.

After watching these judo/parkour videos I facepalm. I don’t think people get that a fall at speed is vastly different than these 0-2mph rolls. You will kill yourself at worst or get seriously injured trying to roll the way these guys do. They’re literally flying onto their hands to break their momentum and pushing away to roll. That definitely won’t work if you have wrist guards on because you’ll slide if you have any sort of speed, and won’t have any means to push off the ground. 
 

You must always let your knee hit first to do a good roll. 

[MikieSWE]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

After watching these judo/parkour videos I facepalm. I don’t think people get that a fall at speed is vastly different than these 0-2mph rolls. You will kill yourself at worst or get seriously injured trying to roll the way these guys do. They’re literally flying onto their hands to break their momentum and pushing away to roll. That definitely won’t work if you have wrist guards on because you’ll slide if you have any sort of speed, and won’t have any means to push off the ground. 
 

You must always let your knee hit first to do a good roll. 

The motion has to be braked, and direction of body motion moved a bit. If anyone want to try this as I did, I can give a bold, but working advice. I did it and it worked out somehow for me. Go out on a grass field, run your top speed, or as much you dare, do a twist, or a very hard turn. You wont stay up, I promise! Take that fall and learn from there. Yes it hurts, I got hurt. A lot. The confidence I have today on pavement... not countable. And of course I do not stress my self up to those parameters, ever. The line is there, just in front of me. Cant tell but I know the 'shit happen' occasion is coming sometime a head, and I do not want the uncertainty keep me back. Calm and secure I try to keep, even if I do a lot of occasional stupid things. ;-)

 

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, MikieSWE said:

The motion has to be braked, and direction of body motion moved a bit. If anyone want to try this as I did, I can give a bold, but working advice. I did it and it worked out somehow for me. Go out on a grass field, run your top speed, or as much you dare, do a twist, or a very hard turn. You wont stay up, I promise! Take that fall and learn from there. Yes it hurts, I got hurt. A lot. The confidence I have today on pavement... not countable. And of course I do not stress my self up to those parameters, ever. The line is there, just in front of me. Cant tell but I know the 'shit happen' occasion is coming sometime a head, and I do not want the uncertainty keep me back. Calm and secure I try to keep, even if I do a lot of occasional stupid things. ;-)

 

You don’t ever need to get “hurt” or practice these silly techniques to learn how to roll. In fact, I’d say it’s counter intuitive on an EUC and could only lead to you getting hurt more easily at higher speeds. What works for skaters simply does not apply to our forward stances. 
 

At high speeds you simply must go limp. Like someone aforementioned, if you try to run it out your legs will drag you into a faceplant causing you to stretch your arms out. Instead of trying to do something, do nothing. 

We have a great advantage being forward facing riders. Sideways on a skateboard literally forces you to have to learn how to tuck and roll because you will always stumble off running due to the sideways nature. But on an EUC you simply sink a knee into the ground which will get you in a position to roll.