Aneta Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Here's my hypothesis of what happened in 2.0: KS switched from trapeze to sine wave. That would explain better acceleration/braking and silent motor. And tweaked some PID coefficients to make pedals stiffer and remove the slack. Since many wheels (and e-bike/e-scooter controllers) already use sine, KS is simply a bit late to the game. But it's a nice improvement nonetheless. For riders who got used to trapeze for thousands of km, sine will feel like magic. To answer my own "burning Charlie Sheen" questions above - no, there hasn't been a revolutionary breakthrough in power delivery / hoverwheel balancing algorithms achieved in 2.0 update. Nobel Prize 2020 in Hoverwheels is still waiting for the winner. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: How ? I can only set on/off/auto... what app are you using and on which platform ? KS app on ios ipad mini2 ks version 1.3 firmware 2.0 ks18L. The app only sets on/off/auto, the other settings are by pushing the power button. Aneta: You are probably correct. I am fairly certain that ANY new breakthroughs in battery tech, power delivery and heat management, MAY manifest itself in other platforms first? Im sure that having to meet price points and fighting legislation, along with the inevitable legal battles, is slowing any magic developments. FOr now, I also am assuming that most of the euc tech is similar among all brands. A simple reverse manufacturing keeps secrets from staying secrets long. My only fear is that as these wheels get faster, we will see the uniformed public begin to notice and small legal issues quickly become obstacles. In the end, it surely will take a hardware and tech change to show any HUGE advances. I think all the companies are balancing performance, safety, reliability. The biggest differance is probably in just those decisions. Is reliability and safety margins a factor in what is considered 'performance'? Perhaps the FW update is just KS deciding to 'catch up' with other developers findings, but the end result is definitely an upgrade to the KS. Aside from wanting a smaller wheel for transport, I cant really see much need for more. People like me that are not pushing the envelopes and are content, probably are not helping propel newer tech, beyond keeping the market going with a little $$. Edited January 12, 2020 by ShanesPlanet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted January 12, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2020 Ok, I'm back from my test ride. I was testing new KS features I've been working last days. Because I was playing with battery level settings I wasn't aware that my battery was much more discharged than I though; I had "Standard" algorithm active (while I normally use "Optimized"). But thanks to this, I was able to check for speed throttling with 2.00 firmware. So it seems that everything is good. KS-18XL with 2.00 firmware goes down to 60 V and there is 25 km/h speed limit. But it's just theoretical limit, as you can't even reach this speed with battery below 63 V. Even a slight increase in load leads tto drop in voltage, causing it to tilt back 45°... Especially that with voltages as low as 60 V current draw is significantly higher that when battery is full. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneta Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 "KingSong will always play second fiddle to Gotway in the performance department. There's no indication that KingSong wants to compete at the Gotway level." I wonder if KS's "second fiddle" is purely software-based limitation that can be lifted? It's very likely that hardware-wise, KS is as capable as GW: battery is battery, there's no magic here; motor is a typical e-bike motor on both, maybe with slight differences in Kv and magnet width, but no principal difference; and controllers are as "beefy" as they can be on both, with best MOSFETs and other components - unlikely that Gotway employs some unicorn magic in their controllers. Then, what we have left is software (firmware), where GW gives it all to the user, while KS "smothers" it by some factor (say, 0.8). Can this factor be found in KS firmware binary and changed to 1.0? Perhaps, some talented Russian hacker like @MRN76, who hacked Z10's firmware to unlock 56km/h speed, can do this? Now, THAT would be absolutely amazing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FlyboyEUC Posted January 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: The 18XL will never rise to the same level as the 16X and other wheels of mine because of its tire. It just can't compare to the comfort and capability of the new 3-inch wheels. I don't care how fast it becomes, accelerates, etc. with new firmware. It doesn't have a 3-inch tire Have you seen the new tire that KS is putting on the 18XL (maybe only the 2200w version?) as standard. It's 2.5 on paper but 3.0 in real life. I could tell a difference when I rode it briefly. I'm tempted to purchase it when my tire goes bald. Edited January 12, 2020 by Flyboy10 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Flyboy10 said: Have you seen the new tire that KS is putting on the 18XL (maybe only the 2200w version?) as standard. It's 2.5 on paper but 3.0 in real life. I could tell a difference when I rode it briefly. I'm tempted to purchase it when my tire goes bald. Total derail, and WOw! Makes me wonder about replacing my egg... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphalt Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Seba said: I had "Standard" algorithm active (while I normally use "Optimized"). But thanks to this, I was able to check for speed throttling with 2.00 firmware. So it seems that everything is good. KS-18XL with 2.00 firmware goes down to 60 V and there is 25 km/h speed limit. But it's just theoretical limit, as you can't even reach this speed with battery below 63 V. Even a slight increase in load leads tto drop in voltage, causing it to tilt back 45°... Especially that with voltages as low as 60 V current draw is significantly higher that when battery is full. @Seba Thank-you for this insight! I was unaware of the difference between firmware speed limiting and current-draw-induced tiltback. I was experiencing frequent tiltbacks once the battery was below 50%, which I assumed was the speed limiting. Is it correct to assume, that below 50% battery, it’s possible to attain 50kph as long as acceleration is gradual and there are no current draw spikes? Also, how do you switch between Standard and Optimized algorithms? And what difference do they make? Finally, how are you determining the theoretical limits? Free-spinning the wheel, or some sort of firmware analysis tool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Asphalt said: Is it correct to assume, that below 50% battery, it’s possible to attain 50kph as long as acceleration is gradual and there are no current draw spikes? Yes, and all the way down to 25% too. It's just a matter of being gentle (and careful) 15 minutes ago, Asphalt said: Also, how do you switch between Standard and Optimized algorithms? And what difference do they make? Finally, how are you determining the theoretical limits? Free-spinning the wheel, or some sort of firmware analysis tool? I've replied in the EUC World thread so as to not derail this post: Edited January 12, 2020 by travsformation 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Flyboy10 said: Have you seen the new tire that KS is putting on the 18XL (maybe only the 2200w version?) as standard. It's 2.5 on paper but 3.0 in real life. I could tell a difference when I rode it briefly. I'm tempted to purchase it when my tire goes bald. Do that same thing on your MSX and tell me what you see. You are wrapping the measuring tape across the radius of the tire which will give you a bigger number. Do a proper tire width measurement between the two tires. I suspect you'll see a big difference. But I could be wrong - I don't have your new tire. BTW, the motor upgrades comes with a new mounted tire??? If yes, maybe you can try and do a side by side photo compare or attempt to measure accurately. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Aneta said: Here's my hypothesis of what happened in 2.0: KS switched from trapeze to sine wave. That would explain better acceleration/braking and silent motor. Silent motor sure, but do consider that no-one has measured or commented on finding a difference in the maximum acceleration. But the amount of effort it takes to accelerate. I can’t see how the waveform shape could affect that. 5 hours ago, Aneta said: To answer my own "burning Charlie Sheen" questions above - no, there hasn't been a revolutionary breakthrough in power delivery / hoverwheel balancing algorithms achieved in 2.0 update. Have you ridden an 18(X)L with (or without) the 2.0 fw? 2 hours ago, Aneta said: Then, what we have left is software (firmware), where GW gives it all to the user, while KS "smothers" it by some factor (say, 0.8). Can this factor be found in KS firmware binary and changed to 1.0? Your thought process, writing style and reaction to replies is very reminicient of a certain past forum member. Scarily identical even, I might add. Yes, the smothering value is what makes the main difference in behaviour between manufacturers’ wheels. But it is calculated by: performance_smothered_total = 1 - ( 1 / ( ( yrs_active + 1 ) / nth_in_sales ) ) ; The included variables are provided by the EUC Grading And Performance Granting Association (not a direct translation, since the Chinese authoritarian system is a bit different), and for the wheels to even work outside the factory, the firmware can only be installed by the EUC Smothering Authority. Otherwise the Chinese government (under which the latter Authority functions) remotely disables the firmwares as they are powered on by an EMP-based inspection device at the Chinese customs’ departure section as they fail to provide the correct 256-bit SSL code that is changed and randomized weekly. But the good news is that the smothering value gets better every year! That’s why the wheels get better and better. 2 hours ago, Flyboy10 said: Have you seen the new tire that KS is putting on the 18XL (maybe only the 2200w version?) as standard. It's 2.5 on paper but 3.0 in real life. I could tell a difference when I rode it briefly. I'm tempted to purchase it when my tire goes bald. The CST C-1488 is a good tire and it performs much more to my liking on the 18XL than the previous CYT H-5102, but as Marty pointed out, you are not measuring tire width in the photo. That is more of a section of circumference. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RoadRunner Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: Your thought process, writing style and reaction to replies is very reminicient of a certain past forum member. Scarily identical even, I might add. Must be his twin sister. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FlyboyEUC Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) You are right. It wasn't my photo and not my wheel. The new motor did not come with the new tire, just to clarify. I first noticed when I had the two side by side and I didn't have a ruler at the time. I'll have to measure the new tire more properly next time I see it. The tread sticks out a lot more than the older tire. I can stick my pinky in between the shell and the tire on the right wheel but not even close on the left tire. For now, here is a side by side of the old and new, along with a more formal measurement of the old XL tire and the MSX. Edited January 13, 2020 by Flyboy10 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post travsformation Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: Your thought process, writing style and reaction to replies is very reminicient of a certain past forum member. Scarily identical even, I might add. Yeah, I that's been on my mind for some time... (and I'm sure I'm not the only one...) 37 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: Must be his twin sister. Christina...? Edited January 13, 2020 by travsformation 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: Must be his twin sister. One account appeared the same month the other stopped posting... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, mrelwood said: Your thought process, writing style and reaction to replies is very reminicient of a certain past forum member. Scarily identical even, I might add. On second thoughts, maybe it's just a firmware bug causing that... P.S. Derailers 'R us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted January 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, mrelwood said: Your thought process, writing style and reaction to replies is very reminicient of a certain past forum member. Scarily identical even, I might add. +1 I've been saying that since day one / 3rd post. (when will the Ignore function be improved? So it is not really usable) Edited January 13, 2020 by buell47 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 On 1/12/2020 at 1:35 AM, RoadRunner said: Made my test ride today and i had some big fun. That thing shoots off like a rocket, i was really blown away how much power i had to play with. I had a big fat smile on my face all day long. Since i got the 16X i only rode the 18XL every once in a while when i wanted to smoothly cruise a little because i like the power and quickness of the 16X more. But now i would say it’s got as much acceleration power as my 16X, really amazing. And sometimes i thought there is something wrong with the wheel. While riding on tarmac i was hearing a strange noise that i never heard before. But i figured out it was just the noise from the tire that i couldn’t hear before because of the high pitch whine. So i am really happy to have a new amazing wheel, thanks Kingsong. And hey @Mike Sacristanhope you and Monika will try out the 2.00 XL from Simon, you will love it. Yesterday I went for a ride with Joakim and Simon. Both 18XL riders. I mentioned the update to them and they were worried about problems. So they were a bit hesitant and wanted to wait first to see what others report. And today I see this. Thank you so much for this report and feedback! I will let them both know. Also... Simon got soft pedals yesterday at half battery and 30 kmh. When he got soft pedals the 18XL yielded forward, he overcompensated by leaning backwards and then forward again and faceplanted. I told him this is a once in a blue moon thing on the 18XL and it is the first time it has happened to him. I have heard of people getting this at a standstill. He is on 1.13 and it's a 2000W (whine edition from july). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seage Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said: Also... Simon got soft pedals yesterday at half battery and 30 kmh. When he got soft pedals the 18XL yielded forward, he overcompensated by leaning backwards and then forward again and faceplanted. Soft pedals? What is that? Ive only experienced my pedals dipping after i almost overpowered my wheel by accelerating hard whilst already going fast, on an incline, and hitting a bump, lmao. Perfect storm. The pedals drooped for a second then caught me, then tilted back. What is this soft pedal stuff and how did it lead to a faceplant? Hope hes alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meserias Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Mike, your friend Simon, it's still on 1.13 version right ? and he fell before upgrading to 2.0 .... (if I understand correctly from "...mentioned the update to them and they were worried about problems.So they were a bit hesitant and wanted to wait first to see what others report.") please correct me if I'm wrong ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, seage said: Soft pedals? What is that? Ive only experienced my pedals dipping after i almost overpowered my wheel by accelerating hard whilst already going fast, on an incline, and hitting a bump, lmao. Perfect storm. The pedals drooped for a second then caught me, then tilted back. What is this soft pedal stuff and how did it lead to a faceplant? Hope hes alright. Pretty much what you are describing. Sounds like he may have overpowered the wheel. The pedals are supposed to be stiff and hold the wheel upright. In the case of a Gotway if you ride past the beeps the wheel will eventually not have enough power to keep the pedals stiff. Since we are leaning forward the pedals will dip forward. Or droop. However no matter which brand of wheel if the pedals no longer hold the wheel upright and resist our forces on them then obviously we would faceplant won't we? Or are we all zen masters in balancing lmao. Yeah he's alright, thanks for asking. He has fallen at much faster speeds. He has a helmet like mine (the one I rarely use) and an armored jacket like mine (the one I use often). But he has lost a bit of confidence in the wheel. We took it to a skatepark afterwards and did some jumping and smacked it around a bit so that we could torture it at low speeds just to make sure it was alright. This is a bit off-topic though and the reason I posted this was to see if any other 18XL rider has had a similar issue and whether they have seen an improvement or not in FW 2.0. We have more people faceplanting on Kingsongs than Gotways now. RIP safe wheel. Even with "0.8 power choking". 1 minute ago, Meserias said: Mike, your friend Simon, it's still on 1.13 version right ? and he fell before upgrading to 2.0 .... (if I understand correctly from "...mentioned the update to them and they were worried about problems.So they were a bit hesitant and wanted to wait first to see what others report.") please correct me if I'm wrong ... He is still on 1.13 as per my last sentence in my post and he has not upgraded. 39 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said: He is on 1.13 and it's a 2000W (whine edition from july) I wrote the above to avoid confusion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Ronnedal Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Trying to update through DB-app. Stuck att 0% for 30minutes. Should I shut down and try again or keep waiting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, Jens Ronnedal said: Trying to update through DB-app. Stuck att 0% for 30minutes. Should I shut down and try again or keep waiting? This should be a question for @Ilya Shkolnik (DB author). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Ronnedal Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 38 minutes ago, Chriull said: This should be a question for @Ilya Shkolnik (DB author). An hour later,..still stuck at 0%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Ronnedal Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I aborted the first try. Restarted my phone (iPhone XS MAX) and my wheel (Kingsong 18XL) and tried again. After 5 minutes,..still stuck at 0%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meserias Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 bottom side of lights on your wheel are white ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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