New KingSong Wheel for 2020

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Brandin J. Mercer said:

I might swing to other end of the spectrum. I think we need one of the better manufacturers to come up with a $299 entry wheel.  It be so much easier convincing people to get their first wheel. I get people stop me all the time and even with the v8. As soon as I say 900 they tune out.

 

I doubt that Tina would think that I'd be interested in a $300 entry wheel 

There probably is not enough unit sales to make a $300 wheel profitable by a company like KingSong. That would be my guess.

[Unventor]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I doubt that Tina would think that I'd be interested in a $300 entry wheel 

There probably is not enough unit sales to make a $300 wheel profitable by a company like KingSong. That would be my guess.

Point 1:I agree 100%

Point 2. Not so much. You need a product to pull people in and from there you build up. Lower price means more units so profit is not on the unit, it is in volume and later sales. Also look at a kids wheel. 

In that context @mrelwoodmight be right in a new 14". Or even smaller. I seem to recall @Jason McNeil and KS were propping for interest about the time of an EUC powerbank battery. 

[Brandin J. Mercer]

27 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I doubt that Tina would think that I'd be interested in a $300 entry wheel 

There probably is not enough unit sales to make a $300 wheel profitable by a company like KingSong. That would be my guess.

Lol probably not, but I agree with Unventor. It's not so much of making a big profit from the entry wheel vs getting the volume sales and that later upgrade to the performance wheel. I for example bartered on Ebay and got a ks14m (174wh) for like 445 shipped. Which in my opinion was 100 bucks more than where the price point should be for that performance. But it made an excellent training wheel and within 2 weeks I felt like I outgrew it and bout a inmotion v8. Anyways I think the same would apply for a $299 wheel. It's about the next wheel they buy!

Also happy new year!

[Aneta]

Hoverboards are profitable even in ~$100 range, I don't see why segwheels with similar battery can't be profitable at the same price range. These things are ridiculously, absolutely ridiculously cheap to make. (for example, that Xiami-clone e-scooter that Walmart is clearing at $50 at some locations, still brings a bit of profit, so it costs probably no more than $40 for WM to buy it in bulk, and no more than $20-30 for the manufacturer to make one) Howerboards have 2 smaller motors, which is probably roughly equivalent to one larger motor on segwheels, in costs; they also have 2 controllers with IMU and similar balancing code.

When you plunk down a cool 2-3 grand for a segwheel, you pay no more than $400-500 in costs, most of which is huge battery; the rest is free money for the manufacturer and the distributor.

EUCs are insanely overpriced, period.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Hoverboards are profitable even in ~$100 range, I don't see why segwheels with similar battery can't be profitable at the same price range. These things are ridiculously, absolutely ridiculously cheap to make. (for example, that Xiami-clone e-scooter that Walmart is clearing at $50 at some locations, still brings a bit of profit, so it costs probably no more than $40 for WM to buy it in bulk, and no more than $20-30 for the manufacturer to make one) Howerboards have 2 smaller motors, which is probably roughly equivalent to one larger motor on segwheels, in costs; they also have 2 controllers with IMU and similar balancing code.

When you plunk down a cool 2-3 grand for a segwheel, you pay no more than $400-500 in costs, most of which is huge battery; the rest is free money for the manufacturer and the distributor.

EUCs are insanely overpriced, period.

It's called capitalism.

Sure, if you take all the profits away everything will be really cheap.

• $500 manufacturing cost
• Sells to distributor for $1000 to generate needed profits (what you call 'free money') to keep the lights on, etc.
• Distributor sells for $2000 to cover "free shipping", warranty service, labor, overhead, advertising, and hopefully some profit ('free money')

That's the way of the world.

[Aneta]

$100 hoverboards or $50 scooters with 216Wh battery is also capitalism, the mantra of which is maximizing profits, which means not necessarily jacking up the price and having a low demand, but lowering the price and jacking up the demand, since it's price*demand that needs to be maximized. Why aren't EUCs as popular as hoverboards? There's no reason for not having a mass-produced $100 segwheel with a 216Wh battery as a toy for kids or an entry-level wheel for adults.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

It's called capitalism.

Sure, if you take all the profits away everything will be really cheap.

• $500 manufacturing cost
• Sells to distributor for $1000 to generate needed profits (what you call 'free money') to keep the lights on, etc.
• Distributor sells for $2000 to cover "free shipping", warranty service, labor, overhead, advertising, and hopefully some profit ('free money')

That's the way of the world.

Well if it only was that simple... 

So where is equipment, facilities, development, investment on that list. 

As when a store has clearance sales it is often to get something before they can't get anything. Same goes for manufactory or distribution. 

I have no insight to numbers in EUC markets, but I were 10 years in IT sales and I doubt EUC is that much different. 

This is more of an reply to @Aneta as I doubt your statement above. A products price is only valid if none take a loss if all of the "food chain". 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Unventor

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well if it only was that simple... 

So where is equipment, facilities, development, investment on that list. 

As when a store has clearance sales it is often to get something before they can't get anything. Same goes for manufactory or distribution. 

I have no insight to numbers in EUC markets, but I were 10 years in IT sales and I doubt EUC is that much different. 

This is more of an reply to @Aneta as I doubt your statement above. A products price is only valid if none take a loss if all of the "food chain". 

I'm obviously not including every cost. What I was trying to highlight is that most products that you buy have a ~100% markup from the wholesale cost. If something costs 100, that seller probably paid 50 for it. And the manufacturer probably has a similar markup, so they need to be able to make it for 25.

This is a broad generalization, but I think it's basically accurate.

[FreeRide]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm obviously not including every cost. What I was trying to highlight is that most products that you buy have a ~100% markup from the wholesale cost. If something costs 100, that seller probably paid 50 for it. And the manufacturer probably has a similar markup, so they need to be able to make it for 25.

This is a broad generalization, but I think it's basically accurate.

To make it sound better; in the retail business a doubling of the price from say $50 cost to $100 retail price is called a 50% markup, it's a bit of funny math and perspective, but I think it's mainly done to make to sound better.

[AtlasP]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:26 PM, null said:

I’d like:

- refreshed 16S with 18xl style housing, better light, 84v.

 

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

f I were working for KS (or any EUC manufacturer), I’d see new models for year 2020 like this:

18XL just got updated with a new motor, and quite recently with a new tire and a tougher inner shell. It shall remain.

16X has been very liked, but still has issues. It isn’t even ready yet. It shall remain.

16S has sold great but is old. Previous minor upgrades were a year ago. Hmm.

14S has sold well, but is ancient. Hmmm.

Inmotion V8 is said to be the most sold EUC model in the world. Hmmmm.

V8F just came out. Hmmmmm.

 

I truly believe will will see successors to either 16S or 14S, or both. Or something new that’s light and portable. Too much money in it to skip them any more.

 

Ding ding ding, I think these guys nailed it. A refresh to the 16" and/or 14" categories with 84V directly aimed at competing with the V8/V8F makes the most sense to me. (If they're smart, aiming to get their KS16S successor to the $1k pricepoint where they get fleeced by InMotion.) (And I agree I'd love to see them refresh the 16S to just be a scaled-down version of the 18L/XL styling.)

I wouldn't expect it to have anything to do with competing with the forthcoming 18" InMotion wheel teased with suspension--if they were going to try another entry in that space I don't think they would have bothered with the 2200W refresh to the 18XL so recently.

Edited January 2, 2020 by AtlasP

[seage]

Alright, so hear me out, hear me out....KS-28Y. Lets get it. Lmao. 

Eats potholes. Advertised at 40mph, gets speed throttled to 9mph at 98% battery. Faceplants if you push past tiltback at any battery percentage. Vocal alarms no longer optional. Yells "BUATOOTH OFF" every quarter mile. Created to not work with the kingsong app. Inner shell attaches to pedal arms with 2 screws and plastic thinner than normal to shave on weight and make it impossible to sit on. Best trolly handle and lights on the market. 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, seage said:

Alright, so hear me out, hear me out....KS-28Y. Lets get it. Lmao. 

Eats potholes. Advertised at 40mph, gets speed throttled to 9mph at 98% battery. Faceplants if you push past tiltback at any battery percentage. Vocal alarms no longer optional. Yells "BUATOOTH OFF" every quarter mile. Created to not work with the kingsong app. Inner shell attaches to pedal arms with 2 screws and plastic thinner than normal to shave on weight and make it impossible to sit on. Best trolly handle and lights on the market. 

So why did you buy the KS18XL to begin with? 

I don't see this add anything to what is upcoming. I don't understand why you follow KS info if you are that unhappy. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Unventor

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, Unventor said:

So why did you buy the KS18XL to begin with? 

I don't see this add anything to what is upcoming. I don't understand why you follow KS info if you are that unhappy. 

You can like a wheel and still be disappointed in it. I could probably put together a similar list for Gotway yet I love Gotway wheels.

[ZenRyder]

22 hours ago, Aneta said:

$100 hoverboards or $50 scooters with 216Wh battery is also capitalism, the mantra of which is maximizing profits, which means not necessarily jacking up the price and having a low demand, but lowering the price and jacking up the demand, since it's price*demand that needs to be maximized. Why aren't EUCs as popular as hoverboards? There's no reason for not having a mass-produced $100 segwheel with a 216Wh battery as a toy for kids or an entry-level wheel for adults.

Two different issues here I would like to respond to:

1) I totally agree with @Marty Backe regarding the capitalism aspect. Just saying things like, "they are too expensive" demonstrates a lack of understanding of how capitalism works. If it could be manufactured/marketed/sold/delivered for a lower price, competition would do it. Now there are reason's why US manufacturers would be less willing to get into this business (many of them regarding legal exposure) and others dealing with labor/material costs. But I still don't see a competing US manufacturer being able to lower costs.

2) I think you're onto something regarding the production scale being related to the high cost. With manufacturing, a high volume is directly related to lower prices for a multitude of reasons. eWheels (EUCs) are low volume production items because not enough of them are sold. So, why is that? Hoverboards are really cheap because they became VERY popular and produced in high volume as a toy. You mention that there is no reason an EUC can't be mass-produced as a "toy for kids", but I think there is a huge reason. A hoverboard can be learned fairly easily by kids. It is inherently stable because the forward rear axis is controlled by the gyro and the side to side axis is stabilized by 2 wheels. The eWheel is inherently "unstable" by only having the forward/back axis stabilized by the gyro/motor.  The side to side instability is used for steering and is ultimately why it's so amazing to ride. Unrestricted flexibility based on your skill/maneuverability. The hoverboard is also stable at slower speeds, whereas the EUC/eWheel stability gets worse the slower you go. I also think the learning difficulty level is much lower for a hoverboard. I know this has been debated at length, but there are a lot of posts of people trying to learn how to learn to ride an EUC/eWheel and just giving up or spending a lot of time trying to learn. I think trying to market an EUC/eWheel as a toy would mean a lot of kids getting hurt. As adults, we can make our own stupid mistakes and no one can really blame anyone. But trying to pitch it as a kids toy doesn't really work because of the difficulty level and safety issues. Let's face it, the chance of an over-lean by an inexperienced kid is a recipe for disaster (medically/legally/parentaly, OK parentaly is not a word).  In essence, although I would LOVE to see more eWheels sold, IMHO I don't think it's going to happen because of the learning curve and the lack of a "kids/toy" market.

[Aneta]

Kids learn to ride bicycles, learning to ride segwheels is no different, especially if an aid like baby stroller is used. Kids are amazing at learning things, and there are several examples of members here whose kids ride EUCs. Kids fall from bicycles, hoverboards, skateboards, scooters, etc. etc., no problem and no legal issues. Overleaning a segwheel is no different than overleaning a hoverboard. (Of course, I'm talking about a low power, low speed EUC with small wheel, 8-10", like Luffy or even smaller. We're not talking about selling Nikola to kids.)

I still don't understand why hoverboards are so popular and segwheels are not.

[ZenRyder]

5 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Kids learn to ride bicycles, learning to ride segwheels is no different, especially if an aid like baby stroller is used. Kids are amazing at learning things, and there are several examples of members here whose kids ride EUCs. Kids fall from bicycles, hoverboards, skateboards, scooters, etc. etc., no problem and no legal issues. Overleaning a segwheel is no different than overleaning a hoverboard. (Of course, I'm talking about a low power, low speed EUC with small wheel, 8-10", like Luffy or even smaller. We're not talking about selling Nikola to kids.)

I still don't understand why hoverboards are so popular and segwheels are not.

Understood that we are talking about a low power wheel as a high power wheel would be costly due to motor and battery specs and would not be appropriate for the low end market.

You have a good point about overleaning a hoverboard being the same.

Kids do learn to ride bicycles, but riding an EUC is different. The forward/backward axis is stable on a bike and not on an eWheel. Using a stroller or other balancing aid like training wheels can help, but it also adds additional balancing/holding complexity to the task. No one said it's impossible. I said difficulty level is higher. With the higher learning curve, the number of falls and potential for injury is increased. Even if the additional potential for harm is not that high, since EUCs are not well understood, there may be more perceived than actual risk. There is a point in the danger/risk level where parents no longer encourage children to "play" with a toy. 

This prank toy image hilariously depicts the point.

You are right that kids are amazing at learning things. In many cases, they can probably learn to ride better than most adults. But it is the adults who actually buy the EUCs or Hoverboards and some might be squeamish about buying an EUC for their kid. Whether that concern is valid or not. Parents certainly bought a ton of Hoverboards until they fell out of fashion. Maybe they would do the same if they felt eWheels were safe. Maybe we need a safety marketing program for Electric Unicycles which promote the safety advantages if the argument can be made. I think it's a tough sell and I personally am not banking on higher production volumes in the near future (as much as I would LOVE to see that). 

 

 

[Nic]

There is plenty of scope for cutting prices, but no incentive to do so as the manufacturers are selling as many EUCs as they can make. Once we see mass adoption of these and other PLEVs the price will drop as production will increase along with competition. Once that happens the margins that retailers/distributors make will drop significantly as they will need to compete with each other for market share. I have to admit that the high-end EUCs are a tad too expensive for my tastes at present, but I am in no hurry to upgrade and in a year or two these things will be better and cheaper.

[seage]

9 hours ago, Unventor said:

So why did you buy the KS18XL to begin with? 

I don't see this add anything to what is upcoming. I don't understand why you follow KS info if you are that unhappy. 

Well theres 2 points here. 1 is that, I had to experience the wheel to find the grievances. I love my wheel, but I can still crack on it, as @Marty Backe said. I love myself, yet I could give you a laundry list on why I suck too, LOL. And 2, it was a joke. I figured it would be obvious due to my blatant exaggerations, but i'll break it down:

Quote

Advertised at 40mph, gets speed throttled to 9mph at 98% battery.

The 18XL is 31mph and doesnt get throttled until like 20-25% (the way i ride at least) the throttling joke was in reference to the 16X. A wheel i dont have.

Quote

Faceplants if you push past tiltback at any battery percentage.

Not even sure this is a real thing that happens, lol. But i was playing on the cutout reports after all the many many firmware updates, again, on the 16X

Quote

Vocal alarms no longer optional.

I made this up. Kingsong wheels all allow you to turn off the voice and set it to beeps.

 

Quote

Yells "BUATOOTH OFF" every quarter mile.

Also fictional

 

Quote

Created to not work with the kingsong app.

My wheel always connects to the app after the latest update.

Quote

Inner shell attaches to pedal arms with 2 screws and plastic thinner than normal to shave on weight and make it impossible to sit on.

Well, lets be real, they did downgrade on the 18XL, so this is a jab at that, saying that they'd make it even worse, obvious sarcasm.

Quote

Best trolly handle and lights on the market. 

Actually a fact, lol. 

In conclusion, my whole post was just meant to be tongue in cheek. The main point was that they were getting worse over time with wheels, as the 16S was a beast, the 18XL was really good with some problems, but overall solid. And then the 16X starting going downhill, so i created specs that were even worse. A laugh about an impossible fictional wheel that will never happen playing on the original topic of what we would guess their next wheel would be. Hence the super exaggerated size (27 inch wheel) ((Although..that could be cool, lol)). Things are getting serious around here...

[Unventor]

@seage I got that it had some joke behind it. Yet when some at KS might peek at the debate here, it not always irony or sarcasm translate that well.

Personally I think it is great that KS use some in the community to assist to get products we want. I also think this should be meet a bit more serious but maybe that is just me. I think it would be better for "most" users.

We saw Inmotion doing something similar but since then they have been fairly quite here. Until they posted a WhatsApp group before their next release on Tuesday. 

[RoadRunner]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

some at KS might peek at the debate here

They shouldn’t only peek, i think they should be here all the time and discuss with us.

I mean they could learn so much here on this Forum about their wheels because we are all the real life testers here and all the information from us is free. 

 

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

They shouldn’t only peek, i think they should be here all the time and discuss with us.

I mean they could learn so much here on this Forum about their wheels because we are all the real life testers here and all the information from us is free. 

 

I suspect they have easier access to a bunch of native Chinese customers.

[RoadRunner]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I suspect they have easier access to a bunch of native Chinese customers.

You mean those 50kg guys? 

[seage]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

@seage I got that it had some joke behind it. Yet when some at KS might peek at the debate here, it not always irony or sarcasm translate that well.

Personally I think it is great that KS use some in the community to assist to get products we want. I also think this should be meet a bit more serious but maybe that is just me. I think it would be better for "most" users.

We saw Inmotion doing something similar but since then they have been fairly quite here. Until they posted a WhatsApp group before their next release on Tuesday. 

I feel you, mate. Ive always been one for lighter interactions and a laugh. Especially on topics like these that dont really get heated, and are literally just concept and idea sharing. But i see your point as well. I'll do my best to make sure my jokes and sarcasm are easier understood when i make em! Although I do think its important for a brand to be able to laugh at themselves. End of the day, we're still buying their products and love them enough to make these jokes. Everyone sees their faults. 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

You mean those 50kg guys? 

Yeah 

[Flying W]

4 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

You mean those 50kg guys? 

That's me........per pedal