16X /18XL fast charge 10A

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Who charges his 16X /18XL with 10 Ampere (2x 5A per port)?

I'm talking about rarly use on longer tours, not for daily use and I know it will shorten the battery life. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by buell47

[Meserias]

but also you could blow a fuse in the hotel room or restaurant ....

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

4 minutes ago, Meserias said:

but also you could blow a fuse in the hotel room or restaurant ....

 

The power consumption of such a 10 amp charger is relatively low at least there are no problems here in Germany. 

[fryman]

I would not recommend. If the wheel manufacturers thought it was a good idea then @Jason McNeil would have already had a 10A charger manufactured, and would be selling it.

[Tazarinho]

In the original review video by Kuji Rolls, he said there were two ports and you could use up to 6 amps to charge them, but not sure where that number comes from.

Is it ok two use two different chargers? Like the original 1.5 amp combined with a 5 amp charger?

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

40 minutes ago, fryman said:

I would not recommend. If the wheel manufacturers thought it was a good idea then @Jason McNeil would have already had a 10A charger manufactured, and would be selling it.

For the manufacturer or seller, the risk regarding warranty in the event of something happening is out of proportion to the income.
I wouldn't do that any other way.

The benefit for us is however very large and there already the question arises, is it possible or is it really not possible?

Besides, we all know the attitude of King Song. Safety in the first place, no matter if it could come to a problem only in 0,1 % of the cases and only when Easter and Christmas fall on one day and at the same time is solar eclipse.

Probably Kingsong has only saved on the cable cross section and if that should be the bottleneck, this could be changed.

Edited December 6, 2019 by buell47

[Seba]

2 hours ago, buell47 said:

Who charges his 16X /18XL with 10 Ampere (2x 5A per port)?

I'm talking about rarly use on longer tours, not for daily use and I know it will shorten the battery life. 

When I'm out for a long tour, I always charge my KS-18XL with 8-9 A to save time. Some time ago Tina from King Song confirmed that both KS-18L and KS-18XL (as they share the same circuitry) can be charged with currents up to 10 A:

It's different with KS-16X as no such statement was made. More, in 1.0.7 firmware version beeping alarm is activated when charging current will exceed 5 A.

I made some tests with thermal camera to determine thermal load on various components of my KS-18L and KS-18XL. As a result I advise to keep current at or below 9 A. It's still enoght to fully charge KS-18XL within 2 hours. In folowing thread I put some details about how I charge my wheel when out for a long tour:

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

18 hours ago, Seba said:

I made some tests with thermal camera to determine thermal load on various components of my KS-18L and KS-18XL. As a result I advise to keep current at or below 9 A. It's still enoght to fully charge KS-18XL within 2 hours.

Thanks Seba, we have already discussed it a bit, but the 10A is still a topic. I know you have your limit with 8A.

Can you tell me where you see the problem? The battery itself shouldn't be a problem, is it the board or the cables that looked dubious with the thermal camera? 

I can imagine that the cables are the problem, but one could simply replace them. Have you already done that? 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

The cables from the charging connector to the control board are actually pretty short and don't look any thinner than most cables in a car, such as the cigarette lighter, which can also handle 10-15 A. And that even at 12V instead of 84V. If I use the online cable calculator right, then 84V /10A need just a 27 AWG (0.1 mm2) cable at 25 cm length.  

The original wire is a 18 AWG (0.82 mm2) 200°C cable. 

According to the cable calculator: 18 AWG with 25cm length is capable of 84V and 80A. LOL 

Where is my error, or are several cable cross-section calculators faulty?  

@Chriull 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by buell47

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

Where is my error, or are several cable cross-section calculators faulty?  

Cable diameter, length and max current determine a maximum voltage sag and temperature rise for a given enviroment. So there are different "rules" for cables used in households (how many cables in one ?installation bay?/?tube?) or cars, etc...

Could fit for charging cables used in EUCs. Or not...

If one looks at the battery discharge cables/motor wires beside my gut feeling would say they are ok.

The charge wires don't go directly to the battery anymore but by the mainboard! So all traces/components that are between the charge cable plug and the battery charge input have to withstand the charge current.

The KS16X is measuring the charge current - wasn't there a firmware that started beeping at currents above some 5A?

Also the components in the input protection circuitry of the battery BMS have to withstand the charge current.

So there is more as to just look up some AWG cable calculator :(.

Most presumably it could work out - but there could be valid reasons why KS had this firmware warning at charge currents above ?5?A!

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Yes, they implemented the 5A alarm, but perhaps only because of their extreme safety policy, because a single wheel is burnt down by a faulty charger.
Also the stupid behavior that it doesn't turn off completely after a full charge. This "safety feature" came just after that single incident. 

Before that it was said that 10A would be okay distributed on both ports. Both the 18XL and the 16X. Later, contradictory statements were made. 

[Chriull]

1 minute ago, buell47 said:

Yes, they implemented the 5A alarm, but perhaps only because of their extreme safety policy, because a single wheel is burnt down by a faulty charger.
Also the stupid behavior that it doesn't turn off completely after a full charge. This "safety feature" came just after that single incident. 

Before that it was said that 10A would be okay distributed on both ports. Both the 18XL and the 16X. Later, contradictory statements were made. 

If you bought your wheel from 1radwerkstatt i'd say chris is the one to give you a "real" statement!

[Seba]

On 12/7/2019 at 11:20 AM, buell47 said:

Where is my error, or are several cable cross-section calculators faulty?  

Cables indeed are not a problem. The problem is that there is a circuit on mainboard that routes charging current. It gets hot under high current. Constant flow of 10 A causes it to go above 100 °C, what could cause overheating in some cases. Keeping current at 9 A helps to keep its temp below 100°C which should provide enough safety margin.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

To give my thread also an end, here now finally my solution for fast charging on the way:

Unfortunately, 1radwerkstatt could not build my desired charger due to lack of time / overload, and the C1000 charger with the conversion instructions from @Seba was not possible because of not very clear DIY description, so an easy alternative had to be found.

1. 84V Charger with adjustable current from 1-12A from AliExpress
2. few GX16-4 connectors from AliExpress
3. few Lenovo connectors from AliExpress 

The charger is actually ready and only needs the appropriate connectors (at least that's what I thought ). But it did not work on any of my EUCs (16X, Inmotion V8, V5F). The display showed 84V, but no 84V arrived at the connector and the fan did not start. The seller was very helpful, but could not find a solution.
After I had checked everything and could exclude a wrong pin assignment, there were only 2 possibilities. Ali Express "open dispute", or find the error.
Since I had not found an alternative charger either, I decided to do the troubleshooting.

After checking the cables in the charger without finding a fault, I came up with an idea. What if the charger has a protection circuit and only starts when it detects a battery that is connected correctly?   Then it would be clear why...King Song and Inmotion have a blocking diode and there is no battery voltage at the charging port. One-way street!
Then I plugged one of my other chargers into the 16X and at the other port the new charger and there you go, one click (relay) and the damn thing starts charging.
Fine, at least the charger is not defective.

So what to do? Modify all EUC charging ports so that there is continuous current on the charging ports or modify the charger...but how?

I chose the charger as a non-professional and thought, find the protection circuit and try to bypass it somehow, so that it switches on even if it doesn't recognize a battery.
The relay that made the clicking noise was hard to miss, but to see what I can bypass I had to disassemble everything to get to the bottom of the board.
I then followed the circuit paths to see how I could bridge it. Unfortunately there was still a small circuit board above it, which blocked my view. This one was also disconnected and dismantled. Suddenly I saw a switch which was hidden under this board and which was in the circuit of the positive circuit of the relay.

Why the hell does one hide a switch under a circuit board?

I flipped the switch, turned on the charger and after 2 seconds it makes CLICK and the damn thing gives me 84V without detecting a battery.

So, it goes on, but I have already written so much, so in short:

to 1) Cut off original connector
to 2) solder GX16-4 female on charger side - I soldered positive to pin 1 + 4 (bridged to split load) and negative to pin 2 + 3
to 3) - cut off the unused sides of the Lenovo connectors
- the black lead (#1) goes to pin 1 positive from GX16-4 male
- the red lead (#1) goes to pin 2 negative of GX16-4 male
- the black lead (#2) goes to pin 4 positive from GX16-4 male
- the red lead (#2) goes to pin 3 negative of GX16-4 male

Attention!!!
Always check the pin assignment. The finished Lenovo cables have different pinout and have a resistor between the middle small pin and the metal housing. With Kingsong it doesn't matter, because here this pin is not assigned. With my Inmotion V5F this is the positive terminal!

Note:
The cable cross section of the Lenovo cables is not particularly large with 22 AWG, but I hope that they will still be able to withstand 4 - 4.5 A due to the short length. At least I will keep an eye on the cable temperature during the first charging processes with 8-9 A. If it gets too warm, I will open the connectors and use 18 AWG cables.

If you also want to make an adapter cable for another model with a different pin layout, you have to cut open the lenovo connector to change the pin assignment and remove the resistor.

 

Size comparison - on the right the eWheels / 1radwerkstatt.de charger

From left to right:
16X - Lenovo Y-Kabel (for 2 x 4 - 4,5A)
Inmotion V8 - GX12-3
16X - Lenovo Kabel (for 1 x 5A)
Inmotion V5F - Lenovo (with positive on middle pin (original) and outer housing (additional for fast charging, requires charging port modification also)

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by buell47

[null]

Thanks for posting this, I just received mine and would have been stuck.

It would have been nice to have this (or the C1000) available with cutoff and skip the 5A charger all-together.
I like mine but it's becoming a waste of ressources to have multiple devices.
Might as well go directly to the wheels max charge rate as we already have the stock charger for being compact.

Edited February 3, 2020 by null

[Peteshmete]

Would anybody KNOW if i can charge(16x) with 2 different chargers(1xstock 84.2v 1.5A and a fast charger 84.2v 5A)?

AND/or do permutations such as 1.5A with 3A on the other charger 

                                                             1.5A with 2A

                                                              1.5A with 4A

                                                               1.5A with 1A

???

TIA

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I have already used most of your versions and it hasn't caused any problems for me. However, I have used two different chargers just for quick recharging, but never fully charged to the end. As soon as the charger entered the CV phase, I stopped charging or just used one charger? I do not know if it is good to use 2 different chargers in this last phase. 

[null]

About red adjustable 12A charger: the switch to turn off battery detection can be accessed through one of the holes on the side. So you might not need to open it. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Yes, but only if you know that there is a switch behind the hole and that this switch also deactivates this battery detection. Without an instruction manual and a dealer who has no idea what to do, you will only see this after the procedure mentioned above. 

[null]

Indeed. At least the info is here though, better than nothing  

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by null

[mozart]

The bike is a KS 18L, charging with a powerful 8 amp (unmeasured) Chinese ended 70%, now even the original charger does not charge or connect the bluetooth as normal. The bike starts up but notifies that there is no bluetooth connection, the charging current is coming to the circuit board. Good advice would be needed.

[Chriull]

48 minutes ago, mozart said:

The bike is a KS 18L, charging with a powerful 8 amp (unmeasured) Chinese ended 70%, now even the original charger does not charge or connect the bluetooth as normal. The bike starts up but notifies that there is no bluetooth connection, the charging current is coming to the circuit board. Good advice would be needed.

You verified that the charger has the right output voltage!? You should measure the no load output voltage. Double check you have no 100V charger.

However you should do a visual inspection of the battery packs (signs of molten plastic wraps or just a color change near the input circuitry (protection mosfets))

Check if all fuses are ok (ks18l also has more than one?)

Check the wiring from the charge plug to the batteries.

Verify the charger pin connection corresponds to the plug pin wiring!

Hope for a firmware hickup and disconnect the batteries from the mainboard.

Once the batteries are disconnected measure their output voltage. (1) Do not reconnect them if their voltage differs!

Empty the capacitors by turning the wheel on. Then reconnect the batteries. Plugging in the connectors should be done without hesitation! It will spark - the longer one "fiddles around" without really plugging in the connectors the higher the chance to melt something (connector, ?fuse?).

Here another great description for the restart process:

 

If all this did not help/give any clue disconnect the batteries again and charge each of the packs seperately (with the original working charger!)

Supervise their output voltage by measuring with a voltmeter!

Only reconnect the packs (like described above) only if all packs have the same output voltage!

(1) since already disconnected you could check the batteries by charging them individually already at this points.

Pff... Many Points ... And no real idea by now 

But at some point enough clues should be gathered to solve the puzzle....

 

Ps.: You already tried to charge with your original charger? Could maybe reset the bms, in case some protection triggered? But this would not really explain the not working bluetooth module....

If you decide to try this carefully watch the wheel as already severe damage could have  happened to one of the battery bms.

[mozart]

Yes I measured the charging voltage 84V, also the polarity is correct and the voltage comes from the plug to the circuit board.
Both fuses are in good condition, with no evidence of melting or burning odor.
The batteries are both 77V, and the wheel starts and moves. Just charging doesn't work, plugging in the charger normally starts a bluetooth connection, but now also doesn't work.
Removing the batteries and draining the capacitors did not change anything.
This fault came in the middle of charging, I started with a low battery and got 70%.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, mozart said:

Just charging doesn't work,

With the normal charger, too?

How did you "verify" this, beside no bluetooth connectiin coming up? (sorry for the "stupid" questions...)

1 hour ago, mozart said:

Removing the batteries and draining the capacitors did not change anything.

That's a pity. As in the quoted post above is described that's the (only) way to restart the bluetooth module...

1 hour ago, mozart said:

Yes I measured the charging voltage 84V, also the polarity is correct and the voltage comes from the plug to the circuit board.
Both fuses are in good condition, with no evidence of melting or burning odor.
The batteries are both 77V, and the wheel starts and moves. 

That sounds great! Seems nothing too grave happened?!

Only thing that comes to my mind till now regarding the no charging is, that something between the charging plug (wiring, connectors, BMS) is broken.

Your statement

1 hour ago, mozart said:

and the voltage comes from the plug to the circuit board

is imo not necessarily true. Could be the charger voltage not "comming" through to the battery, but the battery voltage still "arrives" at the circuit board.

If the charger voltage would come through from the plug to the circuit board, one would see a (small) voltage jump once the charger is connected - hence it would charge the battery...

... but still no idea regarding the bluetooth connection... You mean the music or the data bluetooth connection? The voice message "bluetooth" connected regards only the music connection and only comes up if it is paired with a device. Did you check if the pairing is still active? Maybe the bluetooth module reset and got a new bluetooth address?

Does the data bluetooth connection not work, too?

[mozart]

The original charger supplies 84V voltage to the circuit board, the batteries voltage is 77.7V measured from the circuit board. Plugging in the charger does not change the voltage of the batteries at all, bluetooth devices appear on the phone while the bike is running, kingsong-music connects but ks-18l-3930 does not connect. a message will appear: the pin or key is invalid.