Agility of INMOTION 10f

[rojieh]

I just upgraded from a Ninebot One S1 to INMOTION v10f because of a Black Friday sale. I have been looking forward to this for a long time, but am very surprised at how less agile the wheel feels. I realize it is much heavier and larger than my old wheel, but any hints on settings that might make it feel more agile? 

Edited December 5, 2019 by rojieh
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Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[rojieh]

Thanks! I will try that!

[Rywokast]

settings? no.. increase tire pressure will affect it.. a little, youre comparing a 14x2.125 tire to a 16x2.5 tire lol its gonna feel a lot different

[Meserias]

also there is 8kg difference between them...
of course you felt it in this way

keep the tire pressure in control...

Edited December 5, 2019 by Meserias

[Mono]

I believe there are also different riding modes on the V10? Worth to check as well.

[MexicanBatman]

I did the same upgrade

 

felt the same 

 

if the ninebot was a miata the V10F was a F150

 

such a tank

 

then I got an MSX, rode that and didn’t touch the V10F for a while, got on the V10F when the MSX was flat one day and all of a sudden the V10F was sporty

 

in my case I feel it was because of more experience 

 

but I actually do miss my ninebot, it was a great little wheel for playing around on and unless you are a real pro there’s thing that can do that are going to be near impossible on the V10F 

[rojieh]

2 hours ago, Trevor Phillips said:

I did the same upgrade

 

felt the same 

 

if the ninebot was a miata the V10F was a F150

 

such a tank

 

then I got an MSX, rode that and didn’t touch the V10F for a while, got on the V10F when the MSX was flat one day and all of a sudden the V10F was sporty

 

in my case I feel it was because of more experience 

 

but I actually do miss my ninebot, it was a great little wheel for playing around on and unless you are a real pro there’s thing that can do that are going to be near impossible on the V10F 

Thanks! I’m definitely keeping the ninebot and in some ways it nice to know that the v10f is different like having an SUV. I can’t wait to really try it out once it stops raining.

[lirva]

Did the same upgrade last years black friday sales.

And felt the same thing, but after riding few hundret kms it starting to be sporty and nimble. 

I also bought msuper v3 but didn't like the feeling and the more effort you need to push it, comparing to the V10. 

Adjust the pedals softness, it helped me, but of course it's personal opinion..

[DjPanJan]

On 12/5/2019 at 12:57 AM, rojieh said:

I just upgraded from a Ninebot One S1 to INMOTION v10f because of a Black Friday sale. I have been looking forward to this for a long time, but am very surprised at how less agile the wheel feels. I realize it is much heavier and larger than my old wheel, but any hints on settings that might make it feel more agile? 

 

Confort mode 40kmh speed 100 pedal sensitivity tire 35 - 40 psi i have 115kg. Try this. In eucworld you can use 45kmh overclock aceleration is faster cons are braking is less efective. 

 

[Unventor]

On 12/5/2019 at 12:57 AM, rojieh said:

I just upgraded from a Ninebot One S1 to INMOTION v10f because of a Black Friday sale. I have been looking forward to this for a long time, but am very surprised at how less agile the wheel feels. I realize it is much heavier and larger than my old wheel, but any hints on settings that might make it feel more agile? 

'There is a big difference in tire size and wheel weight, so you will also feel this in the way the wheel handles. There is no 2 way about that. 

That said I think you will find the comfort mode more agile once you adjust to it. In the normal mode the wheel do what ever it can to keep wheel lever, meaning initiate reaction. As in comfort mode it is slightly delay to the response. The point with the delay is 2 things, more comfort feel on bumps and easier to put your weight to force wheel a more aggressive/power response. Like of like an elastic band or suspenders. at first your pull is not felt but then it helps to set the motion in action. Once you adapt to this it becomes very powerful feel to the wheel. 

But it cannot change that the wheel it bigger/heavier/wider tire. I never rode a 14" wheel. I tested one briefly and it was all over the place for me. Now if I compare my V8 it was a light wheel, but once I started to ride the KS18L I never like the lighter feel. My KS16X is an odd duckling. it is very nimble at low speed (walking speed or lower 10- kmh) but becomes more direction stable at higher speeds (like 20+ kmh). As for the V10F it is a bit lighter and slimmer tire than my KS16X so it feels nimble to me, yet stable as long you don't turn too sharp, due to the battery needs to be over the axle, Once the battery is tilted our over the axle it wants to turn sharper. 

So back to V10F settings, I have yet to play with pedal sensation. But that could be something that might assist you. And as other suggested, higher tire pressure  adds to the nimbleness. My tire is rated 40psi or 2.80bar. I started on that, but here in winter season I have to lower this to get more friction and contact area if I am on icy patches.

[Gil]

On 12/6/2019 at 2:51 AM, Trevor Phillips said:

I did the same upgrade

 

felt the same 

 

if the ninebot was a miata the V10F was a F150

 

such a tank

 

then I got an MSX, rode that and didn’t touch the V10F for a while, got on the V10F when the MSX was flat one day and all of a sudden the V10F was sporty

 

in my case I feel it was because of more experience 

 

but I actually do miss my ninebot, it was a great little wheel for playing around on and unless you are a real pro there’s thing that can do that are going to be near impossible on the V10F 

Do not desperate...

 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Gil said:

Do not desperate...

 

I think I spotted a NB in the dusty landing area...

I am sure it wasn't a KS16X as the tank would running away 😉

Edited December 8, 2019 by Unventor

[mythe00]

I remember reading a while back that the "comfort mode" is actually just a straight up newer and improved mode.  People were having trouble climbing up certain hills and complaining about the handling until Inmotion released it.

 

[OneLeg]

The V10F, is software limited as engaging the motor like your ninebot did would probably throw you off. Unfortunately I find it i very irresponsive compared the V5F or the NInebot 14" wheels.

If I was given one, I would replace the tired for 2.15" wide tire to enjoy a bit of nimbleness.... also pump that tire, also change the settings to maximum on pedal sensitivity....

Kind of feel there is a hole in the market, for a unicycle that is nimbler and has the range.... MCM5's pedals are too low, though the L column can be replaced. It is nice to ride.
We need night and simple unicycles with long range.....

[mrelwood]

15 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

The V10F, is software limited as engaging the motor like your ninebot did would probably throw you off.

Every EUC is software limited in that sense. Anything self-balancing can only use as much power that will keep the vehicle upright, not more. A 20000W wheel wouldn’t run away from under you any more than the V10F does, or it wouldn’t be self-balancing.

15 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

If I was given one, I would replace the tired for 2.15" wide tire to enjoy a bit of nimbleness....

A wider tire turns in a smaller circle, which is what I consider more nimble. A 2.125” tire would be bothersome to turn with, since the tall and narrow body of the V10F is harder to tilt to a turn.

Carving at speed is a different animal though, since having to tilt the wheel feels more natural than a wide tire that stays upright.

15 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

change the settings to maximum on pedal sensitivity....

Like the earlier reply noted, the Comfort mode was created because the original was too hard, requiring more effort from the rider to accelerate. That’s why a medium or even a soft setting behaves zippyer and more nimble.

[Unventor]

Well it might be that I only ride from A to B either commuting or pleasure riding no trick riding. But the V10F feels more than adequate in both mimbleness and acceleration and braking. Might not to my KS16X but better than my KS18L. Only thing is range and top speed but since I rarely ride at more than 30-35kmh. 

[OneLeg]

On 12/14/2019 at 1:02 AM, mrelwood said:

Every EUC is software limited in that sense. Anything self-balancing can only use as much power that will keep the vehicle upright, not more. A 20000W wheel wouldn’t run away from under you any more than the V10F does, or it wouldn’t be self-balancing.

A wider tire turns in a smaller circle, which is what I consider more nimble. A 2.125” tire would be bothersome to turn with, since the tall and narrow body of the V10F is harder to tilt to a turn.

Carving at speed is a different animal though, since having to tilt the wheel feels more natural than a wide tire that stays upright.

Like the earlier reply noted, the Comfort mode was created because the original was too hard, requiring more effort from the rider to accelerate. That’s why a medium or even a soft setting behaves zippyer and more nimble.

It is all software but some unicycles accelerate slower than others to make them safer. Those 2000W motors could pull a lot of amps if they were not restricted. so they have a software based accelerator curve. If they didn't and they engaged the 2000W, you would not stay on, it would throw you off....

2.15 = less friction, means that can turn easier, will respond better. All those 2.5" feel sluggish and hard to turn. If you ride in urban areas where you may meet lots of pedestrians you need manouverability... Least effort turnning, slowest speeds, the most leaning at slow speeds, the best return to vertical, and the most acceleration...

 

On 12/14/2019 at 5:53 AM, Unventor said:

Well it might be that I only ride from A to B either commuting or pleasure riding no trick riding. But the V10F feels more than adequate in both mimbleness and acceleration and braking. Might not to my KS16X but better than my KS18L. Only thing is range and top speed but since I rarely ride at more than 30-35kmh. 

V10F is attrocious at braking. I find it scary, when I hit it hard then it just won't stop, when where i need to to stop... I don't understand why they don't let breaking be direct instead of smoothened.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, OneLeg said:

V10F is attrocious at braking. I find it scary, when I hit it hard then it just won't stop, when where i need to to stop... I don't understand why they don't let breaking be direct instead of smoothened.

First off I am not saying that you are doing it wrong, you might know this already.

There is a huge difference in braking and emergency braking. I couldn't find the link to a French video where someone test braking with different wheels. But I use this is most case if I am to break hard to some degree. Instead of just leaning backwards, I use a mix of force pushing with heels and motion of sitting on a chair. The lower you go the more force you can transfer to wheel braking. 

Another thing is people tend to stand a bit on the front on their pedals. This makes going forward easier, but not helping you when you are to brake.A way around this is a asymmetric foot stand, but this takes some practice to do, especially in emergency braking.It kind of like having a gas pedals and brake pedal. I found this easier to control once I could do it, until I got my KS16X (it generates so much force with short pedal arms, I hard hard time controlling it, so I have to ride it symmetrical for now). 

I do not find the V10F any worse at braking to what I have tested in same size and weight considered. The Z10 was not as good at braking imho, The KS18L do not have the same torque force, But since I rode more mileages I am maybe more confident in what I can push and still control (my riding skills, combined with my bad knee)..

Note: If you refer to smoothed braking in general, it is something in how EUC works. It makes them have almost like abs sensation, It is very hard to lock up a wheel, unless you are on sandy surface with hard ground surface underneath. 

I am just trying to put some perspective to what I build my opinion on. 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, OneLeg said:

It is all software but some unicycles accelerate slower than others to make them safer. Those 2000W motors could pull a lot of amps if they were not restricted. so they have a software based accelerator curve. If they didn't and they engaged the 2000W, you would not stay on, it would throw you off....

You have a few misunderstandings there. That's not how self-balancing works, or even can work. If you are interested, you should read a bit on the matter:

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/14032-what-determines-wheel-zippiness/

2 hours ago, OneLeg said:

2.15 = less friction, means that can turn easier, will respond better. All those 2.5" feel sluggish and hard to turn. If you ride in urban areas where you may meet lots of pedestrians you need manouverability... Least effort turnning, slowest speeds, the most leaning at slow speeds, the best return to vertical, and the most acceleration...

Mten (3") and Z10 (4.1") are continously touted as the best wheels for manoeuvring at very slow speeds. If you only try to fight the friction by twisting the wheel, sure, narrower is easier. But once you have learned the tilting technique you no longer have to fight to turn. This is a great video to start from:

 

2 hours ago, OneLeg said:

I don't understand why they don't let breaking be direct instead of smoothened.

I'm referring you back to the first link. It's because how physics at play work, not what Inmotion has done with the firmware. There are several reasons why you may experience slow braking with the V10. 1) As @Unventor wrote above, you might be standing too far forward. 2) The V10 has the batteries at the very top of the tall wheel, and the continuity of movement (law of physics) creates a moment due to the large distance from the axle, tilting the wheel forward as you brake. 3) A wider tire is also taller, which requires you to move further away from the center of the wheel to accelerate and brake at a comparable speed to a smaller wheel. 4) Braking technique. The french MCM5 emergency braking video @Unventor mentioned is indeed eye opening. The rider sits down very low behind the wheel, and stops from 30km/h in a few meters. Of course 16" wheels can't do the same (first link again), but the same technique can be used to much increase the braking power. 5) Riding mode. While the wheel firmware can't limit the power used for accelerating or braking since it would make you crash right away, a softer riding mode makes it easier for you to move the center of your gravity further. This is why some people dislike the 1.07 firmware on the 16X; it "accelerates slower". In reality the riding modes are now harder, so they just require more effort from the rider. The current medium mode works like the previous hard mode, so switching to a softer mode will bring back the easier responsiveness.

[OneLeg]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Another thing is people tend to stand a bit on the front on their pedals. This makes going forward easier, but not helping you when you are to brake.A way around this is a asymmetric foot stand, but this takes some practice to do, especially in emergency braking.It kind of like having a gas pedals and brake pedal. I found this easier to control once I could do it, until I got my KS16X (it generates so much force with short pedal arms, I hard hard time controlling it, so I have to ride it symmetrical for now). 

 

 Exactly, you need very loooooong feed, you have two choices either you have shit acceleration or shit breaking... take your pick... Also I don't understand why the breaking system needs limiting, they should make it aggressive and fast to breaking. I slam by V5 so hard so times it has failed at maintaining the balance.  Also being able to turn fast means I can do a 90 degree turn and break kiind of like if I was skying.

KS16X is weird, don't like it pedals changing pitch etc makes it very unstable as I am a rider that leans  at slow and high speeds. I scrape the pedals on the ground on  inmotion's regularly.

[mrelwood]

 

2 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

I don't understand why the breaking system needs limiting, they should make it aggressive and fast to breaking.

In the previous sentence you said yourself that with an appropriate foot positioning the braking is not bad. The wheel doesn’t know where your feet are, and limit braking power accordingly. The V10 braking is ok, it just requires more effort/technique, like all larger wheels do. Maybe you didn’t see my last reply where I explained the reason in more detail.

2 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

I slam by V5 so hard so times it has failed at maintaining the balance.

What you felt was the current limiting you blame the V10 for. Not by software, but the lack of sufficient power from the battery or motor. The result is exactly the same what a software limit would do.

2 minutes ago, OneLeg said:

I scrape the pedals on the ground on  inmotion's regularly.

This can also be addressed by advancing your technique.

[OneLeg]

mrelwood,

I kind of feel is totally futile to respond to you.  I see you don't listen, you think you are right, you make many assumptions, about everything including my riding skills etc...

I don't think your knowledge is complete see little point responding as I don't think you are interested in discussions, you just want to show everyone you are right... when maybe you are not totally right.

I would be grateful if you could just add me to your ignore list please as it seems I can't block you. Thank you.

 

[Planemo]

Well that escalated quickly

(BTW, mrelwood is right)

Any modern 2Kw wheel will brake very well indeed. If the rider cant apply (due to skill/weight/whatever reason) the required amount of force, it's not the wheels fault.

[Mono]

9 hours ago, OneLeg said:

It is all software but some unicycles accelerate slower than others to make them safer.

The software is bound by keeping the pedals level. That is almost all there is to it. It cannot decide to accelerate slower, because then the rider would immediately fall off the wheel. It does influence the riders decision by using tiltback, but quite rarely during acceleration.

7 hours ago, Unventor said:

There is a huge difference in braking and emergency braking. I couldn't find the link to a French video where someone test braking with different wheels.

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There are several reasons why you may experience slow braking with the V10.

I have two more: 6) if the pedals do not (EDITED) tilt back one may be in danger to slide off the pedal, because the force is by no means close to 90º to the pedal surface anymore. Also this needs to be checked depending on the geometry: tilt back could lead to slightly more pedal support by extending in effect the pedals away from the axle (maybe not likely though). 7) High pedals have less added leverage from deceleration during a strong backwards leaning than low pedals. (That may also go as another aspect of zippiness).

5 hours ago, OneLeg said:

Also I don't understand why the breaking system needs limiting, they should make it aggressive and fast to breaking.

As above, there is not much choice for the software: it has to keep the pedals level, or maybe better slightly tilted. That's all it can do.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Mono