INMOTION V11 (2020)

[Jpd]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Good info. Let us know if it's still working in a month after riding like that. This wheel that failed had probably 500+ miles on it and was 6+ weeks old.

Let’s hope so 😁. I’ll find out soon, I’ve got almost 400 on it now. I didn’t know that they didn’t use the to-247 mosfets, i might not have bought it if I’d known. 

[Jpd]

@Marty Backe do you know the specs for overheat hill, length and grade? I’ll test it on something similar if you do. First with my lightweight son though 😆

[mrelwood]

 

14 minutes ago, Jpd said:

I didn’t know that they didn’t use the to-247 mosfets, i might not have bought it if I’d known. 

The TO-220 package they use already has a current rating of something like 170A, so it obviously should be way more than enough. I’m quite confident that wasn’t the issue here.

[UniVehje]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not hopefully that we'll learn anything other than, "the production wheels use a different control board" - not a confidence inspiring answer. Buy maybe they'll surprise me.

Yep, already announced that it’s fixed already. But it definitely would help to know what exactly is changed and are they sure of what failed. Let’s hope we get more information. I wish they had provided you with the production board if they knew the preproduction version had problems. They had a lot to gain from a successful OHH test. 

6 hours ago, EUChristian said:

1.Are my standards too high?  Perhaps all EUCs have major issues at launch?

 

Yes. I’ve been following the scene since late 2017 and every single launch has been similar. The V11 problems (prior to this) have actually been surprisingly few. I’ve learned to accept this just as the nature of the game. Think of first two batches as beta versions. Only a couple of wheels have had major issues beyond that. 

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The V11 doesn't overheat at 79-degrees? I've never seen a wheel yet that was spec'd to overheat above 79-degrees. This is very interesting.

@Seba got his V11 up to 115 degrees and couldn’t get it even to kick him off. It’s actually possible the production version can take much more heat. 

[LorenW]

Yikes.

I have seen my Inmotion V5F+ reach 135-140 degrees when I am riding during the hot summer days.... and I have been fine.

I was never that worried until now. Should I be worried?

[Seba]

2 hours ago, Jpd said:

I didn’t know that they didn’t use the to-247 mosfets, i might not have bought it if I’d known. 

Actually there is no problem using TO-220 in a 2 kW power inverter. It's common case in high-reliability industrial devices. For example single IRFB4127 MOSFET can continuously handle 76 A at 25 deg. C and 54 A at 100 deg. C. Sherman uses TO-247 and Marty was able to fry the mainboard. The key is correct mainboard layout design and thermal management. Twenty TO-220 MOSFETs are more than enough to drive a 2 kW motor with decent safety margin. V11 mainboard layout looks far superior to Gotway/Veteran, at least in high-current paths.

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

@Seba got his V11 up to 115 degrees and couldn’t get it even to kick him off. It’s actually possible the production version can take much more heat. 

I made several steep uphill/downhill tests last days and wasn't able to overheat this wheel. V11 is equipeed with two temperature sensors. First measures mainboard temperature, second measures MOSFETs temperature (I suspect this sensor is attached to heatsing near the MOSFET case). In my last test MOSFETs reached 115 deg. C (240 F). Fan started at 70 deg. C. No wheel warnings, no tiltbacks, no other signs of overheating.

Anyway, I think there is a problem with V11 firmware. 115 deg. C should at least generate some warning about risk of overheating. Because there is always a non-zero temperature difference between transistor junction and heatsink and usually transistors are rated for max. 175 deg. C of junction temperature, 115 deg. C of MOSFET case temperature is high enough.

[Zopper]

1 hour ago, LorenW said:

Yikes.

I have seen my Inmotion V5F+ reach 135-140 degrees when I am riding during the hot summer days.... and I have been fine.

I was never that worried until now. Should I be worried?

We are talking Celsius, not Fahrenheit. After conversion, your V5 gets to about 60C, which is still safe I think.

[Seba]

8 hours ago, Jpd said:

If the INMOTION app is accurate then it doesn’t. The app has read 179 and 180 degrees, at that time I stopped expecting it to overheat but it didn’t.

I assume you have Fahrenheits in mind. V11 temperature measurement range ends at 175 deg. C. I was able to heat up MOSFETs to 115 deg. C what means 240 Fahrenheit. No problems and any sign of overheating.

[onizukagto]

48 minutes ago, Seba said:

I assume you have Fahrenheits in mind. V11 temperature measurement range ends at 175 deg. C. I was able to heat up MOSFETs to 115 deg. C what means 240 Fahrenheit. No problems and any sign of overheating.

Wow. 115°C! That's toasty. 

I guess you gotta be riding in a pretty hot place to even get that high. 

[eve]

7 hours ago, Coco66 said:

Interesting "European" point of view you have... Europe is spread along three different timezones... 

Try chilling down Mr. Know-it-all.

[C485]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

I assume you have Fahrenheits in mind. V11 temperature measurement range ends at 175 deg. C. I was able to heat up MOSFETs to 115 deg. C what means 240 Fahrenheit. No problems and any sign of overheating.

Sadly electronics doesn't work like that, the higher the temperature, the shorter the lifespan of the components. You can seek for some information on google by typing something like "capacitor lifespan vs temperature". I know mosfets are tough components but they're located next to other components and this can make them fail very quickly.

I am wondering whether to cancel the preorder :/ .

[Chriull]

Just now, C485 said:

Sadly electronics doesn't work like that, the higher the temperature, the shorter the lifespan of the components. You can seek for some information on google by typing something like "capacitor lifespan vs temperature". I know mosfets are tough components but they're located next to other components and this can make them fail very quickly.

I am wondering whether to cancel the preorder :/ .

As @Seba stated these from him mentioned temperature numbers are from the heatsink temperature sensor!

About all other wheels measure just somewhere on the motherboard. Be assured that their mosfets/heatsink temperatures won't differ too much - one just does not know.

Afair (was imho mentioned in V10 times) that's also the reason why inmotion app does not show this heatsink temperatures in the app but the mainboard temps, which they measure, too. Would be too "embarrasing" and unnecessarily scaring for users beeing used to the lower numbers of other wheels.

And that seems to be the confusion for people trying to find the overheat temperature limit - that's not possible with the shown motherboard temperatures! Limiting wo ks based on heatsink temperature...

[Unventor]

My first raw impression.some would have seen this on Telegram more or less yesterday. 

[onizukagto]

Oh no. 

@Hsiang hope your V11 is repairable. 

My opinion for the accident is your no. 3 reason.

I reckon it was the road. Never seen a tyre get damaged like that. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by onizukagto
After watching the video

[Coco66]

3 hours ago, eve said:

Try chilling down Mr. Know-it-all.

I think you are the one who should chill down, Mr. Name-caller... I just stated the truth, like it or not. 

Additionally, you are asking an American something that goes beyond their way of thinking (= somebody else exists in the world) but by doing so you take a self-centric approach... a contradiction as a minimum. 

@Marty Backe, no pun itented, nothing personal. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Coco66

[Vagrant Sneaker]

To me. It looks like he wasn’t ready for the landing at the speed he was going. For the V11 to keep going that far after a fall, I’ll assume he was doing well above 20 mph. Especially for the impact it took at the back of the truck. 

I say this because It happened to me twice already. When you start to go above 20mph and hit a bump or something where the suspension will pop you up, you can easily lose control and gain a wobble on the landing. Both times I was able to control it by clinching the v11with my legs real tight and putting both my hands out to balance. It was scary and I was not prepared for it. It did feel like the thing wanted to leave me and I think it’s something you will have to learn to control. Now I slow down on speed bumps and imperfections on the roads and sidewalks. Until I can learn to control the landing, I’ll be slowing down around holes and bumps. Practice, practice, practice.....

 

....or, maybe a defect in the tire. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Vagrant Sneaker

[Shield]

That was a lot of damage on the V11. The weight transfer on the top of the shock is concerning. I'm thinking the addition of suspension may be leading us into a false sense of security. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Shield
Grammar

[Skywalker]

Could it be the rebound pressure was too high. Duff mentioned that it can pop you up too much if it is too high of a pressure in the negative top valves.

[eve]

54 minutes ago, Coco66 said:

Additionally, you are asking an American something that goes beyond their way of thinking (= somebody else exists in the world) but by doing so you take a self-centric approach... a contradiction as a minimum. 

Quote

Marty what is your time when it premieres? For your europe watchers its 00:00. I have to go to work.  Would really appreciate if you released 1 hour earlier next time, unless it mess up your US premiere time.

Can you point where is my self-centric approach? I was suggesting it and was being nice. Marty didnt get offended so stop stating your "truth". 
I dont need to hear it. Have a nice day.

 

55 minutes ago, Vagrant Sneaker said:

When you start to go above 20mph and hit a bump or something where the suspension will pop you up, you can easily lose control and gain a wobble on the landing. Both times I was able to control it by clinching the v11with my legs real tight and putting both my hands out to balance.

This is why custom padding is pretty much a necessity on V11. 

[Marty Backe]

9 hours ago, Jpd said:

@Marty Backe do you know the specs for overheat hill, length and grade? I’ll test it on something similar if you do. First with my lightweight son though 😆

All I can do is give you the GPS map of the route. I'll try to remember to post it here

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Yep, already announced that it’s fixed already. But it definitely would help to know what exactly is changed and are they sure of what failed. Let’s hope we get more information. I wish they had provided you with the production board if they knew the preproduction version had problems. They had a lot to gain from a successful OHH test. 

Yes. I’ve been following the scene since late 2017 and every single launch has been similar. The V11 problems (prior to this) have actually been surprisingly few. I’ve learned to accept this just as the nature of the game. Think of first two batches as beta versions. Only a couple of wheels have had major issues beyond that. 

@Seba got his V11 up to 115 degrees and couldn’t get it even to kick him off. It’s actually possible the production version can take much more heat. 

I love how they say it's fixed when they have no idea what failed on my board. That really is an impossibility.

Just like I surmised, Inmotion would say the production wheels don't have any problems because it's a different board. And we are supposed to believe them without knowing what changed.

Would anyone fly on the Boeing 737 MAX without know what Boeing did to fix the original problems? It's magical thinking  

[Spinner]

17 hours ago, Vagrant Sneaker said:

ONLY THE SADDLE. Just my thought and assumption....Basically, the way you maneuver with your legs on the saddle may be adding too much pressure to the sides of the saddles. If you’re consistently adding pressure from doing turns, breaking, etc. It may be adding constant pressure to the thin plastic around the screws. Maybe it can’t handle that pressure all the time. If this is the case, I would think it would be a flaw in the design. Imagine having to consistently replace these because of that. This means if you take a bad fall to one of the sides, I would suspect the plastic around the screws would easily also break from the impact.  But like I said, this is just me assuming. I’m trying to figure out the cause. It’s seems I’m not the only one with the issue. I just hope there’s a fix for it. 

Take this with a grain of salt until we figure out what could be the cause. I don't wanna scare others. Just wanna put what Im going through at the moment with the wheel. Other than that, LOVE the V11.

Thanks for this. I preordered that wheel but since I like to ride aggressively (not really higher speeds but I like sharp turns and strong breaking) I think I"ll wait for Inmotion to fix this. Cheers

[Mark Wilson]

2 hours ago, Vagrant Sneaker said:

To me. It looks like he wasn’t ready for the landing at the speed he was going. For the V11 to keep going that far after a fall, I’ll assume he was doing well above 20 mph. Especially for the impact it took at the back of the truck. 

I say this because It happened to me twice already. When you start to go above 20mph and hit a bump or something where the suspension will pop you up, you can easily lose control and gain a wobble on the landing. Both times I was able to control it by clinching the v11with my legs real tight and putting both my hands out to balance. It was scary and I was not prepared for it. It did feel like the thing wanted to leave me and I think it’s something you will have to learn to control. Now I slow down on speed bumps and imperfections on the roads and sidewalks. Until I can learn to control the landing, I’ll be slowing down around holes and bumps. Practice, practice, practice.....

 

....or, maybe a defect in the tire. 

I wonder if the faster rebound and its lack of adjustability on the V11 can be dangerous when riding at speed? It would make since that the wheel would pop-up quite fast and lose traction, and therefore control, if the rebound is too fast. Of course the rebound is adjustable on the S18 so you could tune it to not do this, I think (I don't really know, just throwing out ideas). Maybe the V11 suspension is tuned to be ideal at slower speeds?

[Mango]

Hsiang's crash video is concerning....

I look at my V10F across the room and appreciate it's relative simplicity and durability vs the newest Inmotion. It's taken so much abuse, including tumbling 20 metres down a mountain bike trail, and still rides like a champ. Pure simplicity. As much as I like the new suspension wheels, I think one should still try to actively avoid potholes and other dangers than can destroy a road tire.

Any way, I hope Inmotion releases a non-suspension V11 to succeed the V10F. All the best parts of the V11 (custom motor, headlights, bigger battery, 18" wheel) but without suspension.

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Hsiang's crash video is concerning....

I look at my V10F across the room and appreciate it's relative simplicity and durability vs the newest Inmotion. It's taken so much abuse, including tumbling 20 metres down a mountain bike trail, and still rides like a champ. Pure simplicity. As much as I like the new suspension wheels, I think one should still try to actively avoid potholes and other dangers than can destroy a road tire.

Any way, I hope Inmotion releases a non-suspension V11 to succeed the V10F. All the best parts of the V11 (custom motor, headlights, bigger battery, 18" wheel) but without suspension.

This has exposed the fact that now that suspension by definition makes the wheel more complex they cannot withstand a fall. Now when these things take a roll they are blowing to pieces. Not happy about this in the least.