INMOTION V11 (2020)

[onizukagto]

2 hours ago, Coco66 said:

I remember reading early in this thread that Inmotion was supposed to give two chargers so to be able to profit of the fast charge option? 

Only official USA dealer was offering that.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Coco66 said:

I remember reading early in this thread that Inmotion was supposed to give two chargers so to be able to profit of the fast charge option? 

Inmotion give 1 charger in the box to all resellers. It was upgraded from 1.5A to 2.5A and pin connection changed from the V8/V10 charger to only work with the in box V11 charger. 

Some resellers had chosen to advertise they sold the pre booking with additional chargers to make pre booking offer more attractive. But that was before the shift in charger was announced. 

Now what each reseller do, isn't in Inmotions control but they said they only supply 1 2.5A with each wheel. 

Inmotion has also been clear that you shouldn't mix different chargers and they only recommend using 2x 2.5A original V11 chargers. As they only recommend 2.5A pr port. This is the repeated message they have given on both WhatsApp and telegram, yet some still thing they can use what ever they see fit, disregarding manufactors recommendations. 

I don't think you should disregard manufactors recommendations as we don't really know how the BMS react and Inmotion said cables are rated for 2.5A (yet some think they can do more). 

So what each reseller do at this point I don't know. I bought my V11 from Inmotion and ordered a 2nd V11 charger too. 

[h3X]

7 hours ago, Coco66 said:

I remember reading early in this thread that Inmotion was supposed to give two chargers so to be able to profit of the fast charge option? 

Chicway is offering a 5A charger with this wheel for preorders.

[IamIan]

23 hours ago, Zopper said:

I don't think this will ever be there. Gears are trading speed for power and vice versa. Cars with combustion engine need it, because combustion engine has a narrow range of effective RPMs (and doesn't really work at really slow speeds), so you are trying to keep the engine speed pretty much constant while going from "slow but strong" to "fast but weak". With bikes, the gear is there for a human who has a similar limitations. But in either case, you don't have an issue if it is on a fast gear and you hit a pothole.

The car/bike will stay stable and the worst you lose a bit of speed. You don't mind that you can't quickly accelerate at a fast gear. But EUC in that moment needs to spike the power greatly for a few milliseconds - it needs the power even on the fast end of its speed range. Imagine it as trying to get a gear 1 acceleration from your car while at a highway speed. Adding a fast gear would let you go faster at the expense of the available power and the faster the gear, the easier it would be to overlean. You would miss the power when hitting a pothole or anything. You can't just shift down the gear, as you are outside of the drivetrain conditions (motor, batteries, controller) - if you could use the lower gear at that moment, you wouldn't really need the faster gear. And I ignore the time needed to shift.

 

You might be right in that it might never happen OEM. ... tiny nitch in a tiny nitch , I guess.

 

but .. a few notes on gears :

Gears do not trade speed for power.

power = torque x rpm

gears trade on the right hand side of that equation .. 1/2 torque for 2x RPM .. for 1/2 RPM for 2x torque .. etc .. a good gear set can have power/energy efficiencies up around ~99% .. that ~99% is the only power or energy that is lost by the gears themselves.

Also electric motors are torque limited devices .. strength of the magnetic field (permanent and electromagnet) .. that puts a finite limit on the torque (and thus power) a given motor can produce at a specific RPM it rotates .. but that same electric motor with that same torque limit can provide more power (braking or accelerating) if the electric motor itself is allowed to give that same torque at a higher RPM .. it can't go to a higher RPM because it's limited to the wheel/road RPM .. unless you have a gear .. then you can let the electric motor spin at a faster or slower RPM than the wheel/road RPM .. I see this first hand when I go into EVmode with the manual transmission in my PHEV car .. more kw of regenerative braking power when the gear I'm in lets the electric motor spin faster , at the same vehicle/road speed .. granted the other parts of the wheel .. batteries , electronics , bearings, etc .. all have their own limits as well (voltage , amps, heat, etc.)

 

I see the potential for a good quality mini transmission could allow a EUC to :

#1> Get far more power and torque to the road at lower speeds .. faster acceleration , and faster deceleration .. and still have nearly the same ~99% of the same torque and power at top/higher speeds.

#2> Improve overall vehicle efficiency = longer range.

Because I often see greater % efficiency differences (min/max) in electric motors , their power electronics , and batteries .. than I do in good quality transmissions.

#3> Get the same or higher road speeds from the same or less kw of motor and/or battery power.

 

On 8/4/2020 at 3:34 AM, mike_bike_kite said:

I believe the space that's been freed up is currently used by the batteries which is why the wheel is so slim. Electric motors on vehicles don't tend to have or need gears - even Tesla's don't have gears. Gearing would add a very real point of failure. The gears would also need to operate in both directions which is difficult to implement. I suspect it would also be difficult to make the rider feel perfectly balanced if the gearing keeps changing in the wheel.

The batteries are depicted outside of the motor center area I'm referring to.

Well built multiple speed transmissions can be built to be extremely durable and long lasting .. hundreds of thousands of miles of use is 'normal' , and some of the best ones go for millions of miles.

I'll agree , if it's automatic/computer shifted , it would be a important algorithm to get right .. and manual shifted might be difficult to operate well on a EUC.

 

[h3X]

5 minutes ago, IamIan said:

electric motors are torque limited devices

I think this idea is absolutely brilliant, provided it was implemented right. It's only a year ago that everyone said suspension on an EUC was impossible. 
How fast can a state of the art hubmotor with gears, shift? Would it be a noticeable jolt for the rider? 
I'm imagining that the hollow core of the electromotor may be fitted with a planetary gearbox of some sort, but since the rotor is only the outermost ring, it may have to act as the side cover does now (the rotor coupled to the side cover rotates around the axle/stator which takes up the same diameter as the side cover). 

[mike_bike_kite]

14 minutes ago, IamIan said:

The batteries are depicted outside of the motor center area I'm referring to.

Well built multiple speed transmissions can be built to be extremely durable and long lasting .. hundreds of thousands of miles of use is 'normal' , and some of the best ones go for millions of miles.

I'll agree , if it's automatic/computer shifted , it would be a important algorithm to get right .. and manual shifted might be difficult to operate well on a EUC.

You only have to look at the disassembly diagram of the V11 to see how close to the wheel the batteries have been located. The V11 is remarkably slim compared to any other comparable wheel. That was the point I was originally making.

I'm sure there are gearing systems that are dependable. Maybe it's even possible you could make them work reliably in both directions. Maybe you could make them small enough to work in an EUC. Maybe if you made millions of them then you could even make them cheaply enough to not make the EUC too expensive. But what's the point??? We already have wheels that go fast enough to seriously hurt yourself (we've yet to see a face plant on the Sherman at 50mph but I'm sure it's coming). We already have wheels that go up 40 degree inclines - do you want them to climb vertically? Personally I'd be happy if I had the option of riding safely at 30mph though I rarely go above 20mph where I live. I live on a fairly steep hill but I doubt it's even 10 degrees in reality.

I can imagine the feeling you get as you're leaned over at max acceleration when it decides to change gear! Or are you thinking something like the dual clutch system in an Audi? At the end of the day you're adding complexity, possible new points of failure, cost and weight all to get something we either don't need or already have.

[Mark Wilson]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

we've yet to see a face plant on the Sherman at 50mph but I'm sure it's coming

 

[mike_bike_kite]

That crash looks to be well under 30mph to me. Still painful though.

[Mark Wilson]

It doesn't look that fast but the wheel cuts out so I assume it was going at least around 45mph?

[Patton250]

1 minute ago, Mark Wilson said:

It doesn't look that fast but the wheel cuts out so I assume it was going at least around 45mph?

It didn’t look like he was going anywhere near 45 mph to me. I would think the crash would’ve been a lot more catastrophic if he was. I don’t know why anyone wants a wheel to go that fast with the exception of perhaps trying it out once. Seeing videos like that remind me of Darwins theory. lol

[Zopper]

10 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

It doesn't look that fast but the wheel cuts out so I assume it was going at least around 45mph?

I did a rough estimate from the video. Between 3 sec and 4 sec marks it looks like he moved ~ 8 meters, which would put it around 30 km/h -> 18mph. Give or take, it's a shitty perspective and could well be 35 km/h (20+ mph). But it certainly is not anywhere near 45 mph - he would need to travel about twice as fast.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Zopper

[Mark Wilson]

8 minutes ago, Zopper said:

I did a rough estimate from the video. Between 3 sec and 4 sec marks it looks like he moved ~ 8 meters, which would put it around 30 km/h -> 18mph. Give or take, it's a shitty perspective and could well be 35 km/h (20+ mph). But it certainly is not anywhere near 45 mph - he would need to travel about twice as fast.

I should've read the description. Apparently he was going around 25-30mph. I wonder why he cutout?

[Planemo]

I thought he just overleaned it which as we all know is nothing to do with a cut out.

[stephen]

6 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I thought he just overleaned it which as we all know is nothing to do with a cut out.

If you look at it closely he also got a bump when over leaning then it cut out

[stephen]

Range test 👍👍

 

[Rywokast]

22 minutes ago, Mark Wilson said:

I should've read the description. Apparently he was going around 25-30mph. I wonder why he cutout?

i read that in the description when the video first came out too, but i never believed it... looked to be 30 kph to me lol, no way hes walking away with a little scratch at 30 mph

[stephen]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

Range test 👍👍

 

All i can say is Wow and what an utter shame it didn't let you complete the range test with go home mode which read 33% battery left, you could of got another 15 miles on top of the 48👍so 60+ miles 😊

One question though is the demo wheel 1420wh or 1500wh? If it's 1420 it's even more impressive what range he got 👍

The tilt back can be fixed with a firmware update

Did you look at euc world app what was the battery percentage on there after enabling the go home mode

Thanks for testing this and all your work and walks home 😬

Inmotion should give you a production model for free because it will be over heat hill soon

Thanks

Ps!  

I think the preduction wheel will be sound ,the demo has a different board , has anybody on here got a V11 and can tell us if go home mode works

Edited August 5, 2020 by stephen

[onizukagto]

46 minutes ago, stephen said:

All i can say is Wow and what an utter shame it didn't let you complete the range test with go home mode which read 33% battery left, you could of got another 15 miles on top of the 48👍so 60+ miles 😊

One question though is the demo wheel 1420wh or 1500wh? 

The tilt back can be fixed with a firmware update

Did you look at euc world app what was the battery percentage on there after enabling the go home mode

Thanks for testing this and all your work and walks home 😬

Inmotion should give you a production model for free because it will be over heat hill soon

Thanks

 

Demo is 1420wh

As for tilt back, nothing has been reported by production owners. Probably fixed already? 

Demo wheel has a different control board to production version. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by onizukagto

[PeWoo]

2 hours ago, h3X said:

Chicway is offering a 5A charger with this wheel for preorders.

And how it will be handled by Chicway taking into account previous post from @Unventor:
"Inmotion give 1 charger in the box to all resellers. It was upgraded from 1.5A to 2.5A and pin connection changed from the V8/V10 charger to only work with the in box V11 charger.
Some resellers had chosen to advertise they sold the pre booking with additional chargers to make pre booking offer more attractive. But that was before the shift in charger was announced. Now what each reseller do, isn't in Inmotions control but they said they only supply 1 2.5A with each wheel.
Inmotion has also been clear that you shouldn't mix different chargers and they only recommend using 2x 2.5A original V11 chargers. As they only recommend 2.5A pr port. This is the repeated message they have given on both WhatsApp and telegram, yet some still thing they can use what ever they see fit, disregarding manufactors recommendations."

??

[Dave Wood]

2 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

 

Cut Off in normal conditions is worrying. I expect a safer wheel

[Zopper]

2 minutes ago, Dave Wood said:

Cut Off in normal conditions is worrying. I expect a safer wheel

Well, the V11 has one reported cut off as well. From the post mortem the rider did it looks like a bad battery. Could be a similar case for this Sherman.

[stephen]

15 minutes ago, PeWoo said:

And how it will be handled by Chicway taking into account previous post from @Unventor:
"Inmotion give 1 charger in the box to all resellers. It was upgraded from 1.5A to 2.5A and pin connection changed from the V8/V10 charger to only work with the in box V11 charger.
Some resellers had chosen to advertise they sold the pre booking with additional chargers to make pre booking offer more attractive. But that was before the shift in charger was announced. Now what each reseller do, isn't in Inmotions control but they said they only supply 1 2.5A with each wheel.
Inmotion has also been clear that you shouldn't mix different chargers and they only recommend using 2x 2.5A original V11 chargers. As they only recommend 2.5A pr port. This is the repeated message they have given on both WhatsApp and telegram, yet some still thing they can use what ever they see fit, disregarding manufactors recommendations."

??

As regarding chargers as long as the pins are the same a 5 amp charger is nothing for a 4 pack battery it should handle 5amps no problem

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Zopper said:

Well, the V11 has one reported cut off as well. From the post mortem the rider did it looks like a bad battery. Could be a similar case for this Sherman.

Now there are more to these 2 stories. 

Let's take the Sherman first. Apparently someone decided it would be great to test if they could make it cutout. So the rider got challenged it was is its 60ish% battery and he avoided a bike few sec before going 50+kmh and hitting a pothole.

As for the V11 we don't hear anything official just yet but it points to a bad battery. But even so the owner do not listen to Inmotions recomendations regarding charging. 

And if the safety in the BMS of the V11 had worked as intended I don't think 1 battery pack should have cut out at those speeds reported. We will see what Inmotion says once they have examined the wheel. 

I still think that one would be wise to listen to what Inmotion recomend how to charge the V11. There are several links in the charging process and none have really any insight and details about this but Inmotion from what I have seen so far. It will always be the weakest link that breaks is the is BMS, cabcle, connectors, control board or battery pack or a cell. It matters less. The result is bad either way.

That is why I bought an extra original V11 charger. 

I know from laptops what happen when people think better to get a faster charger. I also know the company I work for how 3rd.party chargers and battery causes fires. 

That is why I talk about this here. Despite some people think they know better. 

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I still think that one would be wise to listen to what Inmotion recomend how to charge the V11.

I agree with @Unventor here. I'm quite a DIY person, especially concerning EUCs, and have even added self made battery packs to two wheels. The charging process is different on Gotways for example, since the charging goes directly to the battery. It's easy to calculate the currents the cells can take. But on KS and IM wheels the charging goes through the mainboard. What the mainboard does to it or can even handle, is not known to the user, other than what the manufacturer recommends. That's why charging a GW with a 5A charger is perfectly ok, but charging the V11 with one is a leap in the dark.

And if someone has tried to charge the V11 with a 5A charger without issues, it says nothing about whether it's safe or not. I could drive a car in traffic with my eyes closed for a while, without issues as well. Should I or anyone else do it? Absolutely not.

I'm going to charge my V11 with the two original 2.5A chargers, since the manufacturer says it's the only way to fast charge it.

[stephen]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But on KS and IM wheels the charging goes through the mainboard

So shouldn't i charge my 16x with my 5 amp charger 😬😬