KS-18A 800w 680wh

[OliverH]

26 minutes ago, John Eucist said:

Yeah KS14-800W.

Same happenend here with a KS18-500

This speeds make no sense. The torque of the Motor is so low. An EU should detect the drivers weight and reduce the speed based on this figures.

[Gyroroue-shop.fr]

KS 18A 500W should not go over 30 km/h from informations we got, they don't have the tilt back too

KS 800W not over 35 km/h, Personally i reduce to 31 km/h max on the 800W

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Gyroroue-shop.fr said:

KS 18A 500W should not go over 30 km/h from informations we got, they don't have the tilt back too

KS 800W not over 35 km/h, Personally i reduce to 31 km/h max on the 800W

KS18-500 has tilt back on overheating. Motor spinns up to 40/ 41 and sounds like hell if you lift it up. I think you?re faster than an MCM 2 and Close to an MSuper. If it's at high speed no idea. I know what serios and what not. I would never go beyond 25 as I'm heavy weight (+100 kg) and definetly not with a 500 W Motor higher than 20. It's a problem of low torque of the Motors (not a Kingsong specific Problem)..

[Cloud]

13 hours ago, OliverH said:

Same happenend here with a KS18-500

This speeds make no sense. The torque of the Motor is so low. An EU should detect the drivers weight and reduce the speed based on this figures.

This is the first time i am seeing someone officially reporting a kingsong wheel cutting out. This is important to know and kingsong needs to be notified asap. Lets discuss it more. We can save a life or two.

[OliverH]

8 hours ago, Cloud said:

This is the first time i am seeing someone officially reporting a kingsong wheel cutting out. This is important to know and kingsong needs to be notified asap. Lets discuss it more. We can save a life or two.

If you go to the limit you'll fail. All EUs are not properly tested on the bench. Mostly Asians are smaller and not so heavy in weight as we over here in Europe or the USA or Australia. If the Chinese companies define their maps and behaviour handling they test it with Asians weights but state they're compatible with 120 kg, some 150 kg. Than have a look how much Nm this motors in our EUs have. Bad roads needs to much power to balance wheel and driver. That's physic. A proper designed EU would have a max. speed below 30 km/h.

The current manufacturers don't have a marketing or a real legal system department. We're at a point where customers changing from freaks to normal users (population rise). Design changed, more and more EUs getting lights. But they didn't change the core to be safety reliable. More powerful motors can be used to get more safety or you can still focus on freaks and max. speed. The manufacturers let go by the real volume market.

[Cloud]

8 hours ago, OliverH said:

If you go to the limit you'll fail. All EUs are not properly tested on the bench. Mostly Asians are smaller and not so heavy in weight as we over here in Europe or the USA or Australia. If the Chinese companies define their maps and behaviour handling they test it with Asians weights but state they're compatible with 120 kg, some 150 kg. Than have a look how much Nm this motors in our EUs have. Bad roads needs to much power to balance wheel and driver. That's physic. A proper designed EU would have a max. speed below 30 km/h.

The current manufacturers don't have a marketing or a real legal system department. We're at a point where customers changing from freaks to normal users (population rise). Design changed, more and more EUs getting lights. But they didn't change the core to be safety reliable. More powerful motors can be used to get more safety or you can still focus on freaks and max. speed. The manufacturers let go by the real volume market.

Even if they dont have a legal system they must understand that human casualties will lead to bans and decline in euc sales. They need to figure out why the motor cut out, because the user reached the speed capacity limit or for some other reason. And they have to test their units with heavier people. I am surprized and its very unnerving to learn that kingsong 800w cut out at this speed. I ride one and push the limits too, and i am waiting for another 14" to arrive which will have the 32kph speed limit. I sure dont want it to cut out at 31. I am 100kg and ride with a backpack and on bad roads, slopes, etc. 

[OliverH]

2 hours ago, Cloud said:

Even if they dont have a legal system they must understand that human casualties will lead to bans and decline in euc sales. They need to figure out why the motor cut out, because the user reached the speed capacity limit or for some other reason. And they have to test their units with heavier people. I am surprized and its very unnerving to learn that kingsong 800w cut out at this speed. I ride one and push the limits too, and i am waiting for another 14" to arrive which will have the 32kph speed limit. I sure dont want it to cut out at 31. I am 100kg and ride with a backpack and on bad roads, slopes, etc. 

I've spoken with 3 manufacturers. I don't tell which one. They don't have a clue.

My personal feeling:

• They've not the education like we have in Europe, the USA and Australia
• They still sell EUs so all is doing well, they believe in this. They don't get the point that police in different countries started to compound the EUs and hand out tickets because of driving EUs with no insurance and no type approval.
• As China just started in 1998 to join the UN ECE regulation and slightly started to implement it, they don't understand what we need
• Service management is implemented in a different way we used to (configuration-, change- , incident-, test-, problemmanagement,..)
• Project Management is a challenge. Don't come with a project plan and think they get the point
• There's a language problem. The best English speaking employees are working in sales (the social media ladies)
• Missing fundamental financial staffing
• No visions/ strategies as we know to use it
• The Chinese manufacturers use existing technology/ designs and tweak them. They don't monitor markets and their requirements and also don't have a look on technologies emerging to see if they can implement them. The technology needed to be safety reliable is available, waiting to be implemented.

Culture is different in China as well as education. It's not easy to understand the other side and find a proper way to communicate together.

A conf call is a real challenge and will end in chatting on Skype/ WeChat that all get on the best level to understand the story you tell them. Sharing information in an interactive conf call is mission impossible. The Chinese internet firewall blocks parts of western collaboration platforms. 

Don't believe you talk with an enterprise company. This are really small companies.

Don't try to establish a business plan with this companies, just place an order with a configuration they offer and keep on low sales volume.

Either they get the point or the core business (marketing, R&D, business development,..) will move over to the western countries. Current manufacturers may be still working as contract manufacturers on parts for overseas markets in the future.

[Jason McNeil]

Much of what @OliverH writes about Chinese EU manufacturer culture is correct. To a certain extent, these same inherent flaws also means that these companies are more Darwinian & adaptive than top heavy, risk averse, western organisations. From what little information is available, the people at theuniwheel.co.uk look like they're making something of pretty decent quality, we certainly need more diversity outside of China than just Solowheel. 

As is often repeated, 'All Wheels Have Their Limits', while the KS 800W class of eWheels subjectively feel more than twice as powerful over an E+,  even these can cut-out if pushed too far. My next consignment of King Song 14Cs will have battery cells with a 1/3 lower internal resistance & a 816Wh capacity pack. Empirically speaking, parallalization of battery series (4 is better than 2, 2 is better than 1, etc..) & lower IR are key to raising the cut-out safety threshold. The relationship between power output (maintaining voltage) & IR is not linear, a 1/3 decrease in IR realizes an enormous improvement in a 'stressed' situation like acceleration. 

Continual power improvements also raises a psychological /philosophical conundrum: as a general rule, riders adapt their riding conditions to their Wheel, trying to stay slightly  below the limit. Not too long ago when speeds were pretty sedate, the result of a brown-out was a high successful run-off rate; now however, at a cruising speed of 28-32kph, this is no longer possible—yes accidents are much less frequent, but if you do come off at speed, the consequences are more dire. Maybe a solution is to develop some sophisticated code that continually monitors the voltage state at a frequency of 100Hz or higher, an algorithm would use the data of previous polls to predict if it will enter the danger zone & apply the tilt-back accordingly. 

 

[dmethvin]

I think it's just human nature for us to want to "get the most" out of whatever we bought. Nobody wants to be told that their EUC could go 20% faster but it doesn't because the company wants to maintain a margin of safety. As long as we (the people buying these leading-edge products) judge their awesomeness by simple measures like max speed, the manufacturers will be tempted to go right up to the edge of safety in order to drive sales.

[Viktiga]

1 hour ago, dmethvin said:

I think it's just human nature for us to want to "get the most" out of whatever we bought. Nobody wants to be told that their EUC could go 20% faster but it doesn't because the company wants to maintain a margin of safety. As long as we (the people buying these leading-edge products) judge their awesomeness by simple measures like max speed, the manufacturers will be tempted to go right up to the edge of safety in order to drive sales.

I think they should have a "I'm Crazy" button on the app that voids the warranty and the speed limit. Win-Win.

[OliverH]

7 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Much of what @OliverH writes about Chinese EU manufacturer culture is correct. To a certain extent, these same inherent flaws also means that these companies are more Darwinian & adaptive than top heavy, risk averse, western organisations. From what little information is available, the people at theuniwheel.co.uk look like they're making something of pretty decent quality, we certainly need more diversity outside of China than just Solowheel. 

As is often repeated, 'All Wheels Have Their Limits', while the KS 800W class of eWheels subjectively feel more than twice as powerful over an E+,  even these can cut-out if pushed too far. My next consignment of King Song 14Cs will have battery cells with a 1/3 lower internal resistance & a 816Wh capacity pack. Empirically speaking, parallalization of battery series (4 is better than 2, 2 is better than 1, etc..) & lower IR are key to raising the cut-out safety threshold. The relationship between power output (maintaining voltage) & IR is not linear, a 1/3 decrease in IR realizes an enormous improvement in a 'stressed' situation like acceleration. 

Continual power improvements also raises a psychological /philosophical conundrum: as a general rule, riders adapt their riding conditions to their Wheel, trying to stay slightly  below the limit. Not too long ago when speeds were pretty sedate, the result of a brown-out was a high successful run-off rate; now however, at a cruising speed of 28-32kph, this is no longer possible—yes accidents are much less frequent, but if you do come off at speed, the consequences are more dire. Maybe a solution is to develop some sophisticated code that continually monitors the voltage state at a frequency of 100Hz or higher, an algorithm would use the data of previous polls to predict if it will enter the danger zone & apply the tilt-back accordingly. 

 

As @Jason McNeildescribed, he still moved a part of product finishing/ optimisation to the UK and Kingsong did a ODM build with a special configuration. So he did tests the manufacturer should have done. Don't misunderstand me, I think if Kingsong could grow they could do more in this. R&D spending/ number of engineers is always to low at all of this companies.

This ODM deals could only be done because of the very low sales figures the EU manufacturers have. They need this special deals/ configurations to keep the customer.

[dmethvin]

7 hours ago, OliverH said:

As @Jason McNeildescribed, he still moved a part of product finishing/ optimisation to the UK and Kingsong did a ODM build with a special configuration. So he did tests the manufacturer should have done. Don't misunderstand me, I think if Kingsong could grow they could do more in this. R&D spending/ number of engineers is always to low at all of this companies.

It is very common for design, sales, and marketing to be done in the west and just the manufacturing in China. The iPhone is made in China but if a Chinese manufacturer was handling all that there is no way they would have understood the needs well enough to come up with that product. They don't understand the audience they are selling to, which makes sense because it's a totally different culture. Riders outside Asia are often taller, heavier, and less tolerant of risk. 

Distributing consumer products is a pretty well-understood process. Right now most EUC manufacturers are trying the direct sales approach which just won't scale when they're in China and their market is elsewhere. They need some "middlemen" who understand the markets where they want to sell, and add value by providing feedback about quality and new features. I like the idea of people like @Jason McNeil adding value by having the manufacturer improve specific things, and in return get at least a short period of exclusive sale rights in return. 

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, dmethvin said:

It is very common for design, sales, and marketing to be done in the west and just the manufacturing in China. The iPhone is made in China but if a Chinese manufacturer was handling all that there is no way they would have understood the needs well enough to come up with that product. They don't understand the audience they are selling to, which makes sense because it's a totally different culture. Riders outside Asia are often taller, heavier, and less tolerant of risk. 

Distributing consumer products is a pretty well-understood process. Right now most EUC manufacturers are trying the direct sales approach which just won't scale when they're in China and their market is elsewhere. They need some "middlemen" who understand the markets where they want to sell, and add value by providing feedback about quality and new features. I like the idea of people like @Jason McNeil adding value by having the manufacturer improve specific things, and in return get at least a short period of exclusive sale rights in return. 

Yes. They need indeed distributors (not box movers) taking care of the market, build up a dealer network, doing marketing, advertisement and regulation work (type approval, if possible in the future). Because the manufacturers sometimes don't want to give someone exclusive rights they start sales war between the dealers all buying directly. No one in the end earns money. The distributor has not enough margin to give the necessary margin to a dealer. Distributor has to handle service / warranty cases and has the problem with European 2 year warranty and only gets up to 6 month from the manufacturer. So the distributor needs again a safety margin for warranty cases on his risk in the last 18 month he's not covered by the manufacturer.

[Colestien]

On 11/7/2015, 4:30:15, Jason McNeil said:

yes accidents are much less frequent, but if you do come off at speed, the consequences are more dire. Maybe a solution is to develop some sophisticated code that continually monitors the voltage state at a frequency of 100Hz or higher, an algorithm would use the data of previous polls to predict if it will enter the danger zone & apply the tilt-back accordingly. 

 

 This is my main concern.  I've be told and read adds that claim the redesign was already happening.   Everyone claims they are making their Wheels safer,  but other than increasing the battery, I'm wanting a good answer on how they are making it safer.   The clone I have isn't safe.  As long as I keep it slow, and don't let the battery get below two bars there are no cut offs.  When I get a better Wheel, one that will do a good speed, I need to know if my Grandson decides to go Bat-ass-crazy on it, it will not let him go past the safe, and into the hurt.  The bat-ass-crazy thing  is a family tradition.  He will push himself as we all do.  If a wheel would do as Jason says and not allow a rider to make it cut off.  It would no longer be a mechanical failure.  Then it would be the riders failure..  

[Tomek]

@Jason McNeil maybe it's a bit off topic, but I saw you testing the IPS Zero in your youtube videos. How does it compare to KS-14C 800W? I know it's probably not the same league safety/quality-wise, but it's also much easier on the wallet...

[castShadow]

@Sweet M Here is the video below of the early King Song 18" off-road trip.  It appears to have been reposted on a German youtube account - I don't remember now where I saw it originally nor the details of this ride.  This video should be on the forum already but here you go for your topic:

Impressive capabilities and speeds off-roading.

 

[MetricUSA]

I so want to add a pony tail and head, with a leather saddle on the 18....

[castShadow]

LoL - giddy'up!

[esaj]

On 9.11.2015 4.47.10, castShadow said:

@Sweet M Here is the video below of the early King Song 18" off-road trip.  It appears to have been reposted on a German youtube account - I don't remember now where I saw it originally nor the details of this ride.  This video should be on the forum already but here you go for your topic:

Impressive capabilities and speeds off-roading.

If I remember right, it was said somewhere that these were the 1360Wh -versions (8 x 170Wh?), which are not available internationally. Don't know the motor specs though, 800W?

Edit: Here's the thread about the 1360Wh: http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/1264-king-song-ks18a-1360wh-battery-query/

[OliverH]

1100 W/ 1360 Wh. Call it a pathfinder/ prototype or what ever.

[dmethvin]

 

On 11/8/2015, 11:15:09, OliverH said:

 

3 hours ago, OliverH said:

1100 W/ 1360 Wh. Call it a pathfinder/ prototype or what ever.

I would call it "awesome".

[Colestien]

On 11/1/2015, 6:18:53, Cloud said:

 

I would want to call it mine.

[ElectricWheelEric]

Is it real? Did you know you can purchase it on aliexpress?

I'm still trying figuring out which battery brand to go for.

Samsung 1360wh (£888.79) or Panasonic 1360wh (£938)?Is its topspeed at least 28kph? Could someone confirm this please? These are the only things what keeps me away from calling one of them mine... :-)

 

 

 

[BPINE]

5 hours ago, Azuro said:

Is it real? Did you know you can purchase it on aliexpress?

I'm still trying figuring out which battery brand to go for.

Samsung 1360wh (£888.79) or Panasonic 1360wh (£938)?Is its topspeed at least 28kph? Could someone confirm this please? These are the only things what keeps me away from calling one of them mine... :-)

 

 

 

Yep I gave up as well Azuro also in the description it said 500 watt motor I want 800 but couldn't get anyone from the site to tell me if they had an 800.

[Jason McNeil]

KS says that the reason these crazy 1360Wh packs on the 18A are only available in China, is because the packs are so expensive that risk/return calculation on selling these overseas if/when something goes wrong would be minor financial disaster. Might start offering, if the users sign some sort of waiver form, with a narrow scope of what's within & outside the terms of the warranty. 

All new 18" will be at least 800w but a lower top speed than the 14", circa 30kph. Logic here is that an accident on the 18" dramatic than on the 14"—not sure if this is backed up by any evidence...