IMPORTANT: 16X Riders, Please Upgrade from v1.05 to v1.07!

[Gaz Bon]

On 11/12/2019 at 10:58 PM, Gaz Bon said:

Couple of things I noticed now on 1.07

1 Getting some braking wobbles not at high speeds or low very odd 

2 Had a strange peddle dip today only slightly but enough for a WTF 

All else seems solid enough ,carving seems more fun 

Another issue with 1.07 on my 16X

When charging to 90% 0r 80% with fast charger only on 2A

Charger gets to desired voltage level charger stops ,wheel announces Bluetooth is off ,charger starts up again for 2 sec then hit volt level again and stops wheel then announces Bluetooth is off and charger starts again this repeats over and over .

Unsure of the ramifications for wheel or charger if left in this state unnoticed 

So looks like fast charger now only good for 100% charging only 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Gaz Bon

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Aneta said:

Upgradeable FW also gives slack to the manufacturer to release poorly tested product and fix problems later based on user feedback (read: broken bones).

The wheel should "just work", and its "handling"/character should be set in stone. If they update FW, it should only be minor, non-riding related improvements (e.g. changing the LED color patterns, or abilility to speak "please decelerate" in different languages, etc.) Riding character of the wheel is a sacred thing and must be immutable.

It is not that I don't agree with you but if things were only that simple. 

With your opinion then Gotway should be your brand. 

I can only say the my KS18L got a lot better with a year later firmware release. (I don't recall version but might be 1.12 or 1.13)

As for my KS16X I think it is near perfect with fw 1.07. Only thing I really miss is a proper weatherproofing. I almost ride my wheel(s) more than I drive my car. And despite condition here in Sweden, last year my skills developed so I can ride despite icy and snow conditions. 

I chose KS (and Inmotion) due to fw update abilities. Other reasons too. It is also why I would not choose a Gotway, one of the points. If I am right or wrong in my way of choosing I can't say. 

But if let's say a mobile app/os changes so you cannot communicate with a wheel anymore because of fixed/locked firmware, having an update option over USB option as KS would not be a bad idea or? 🤔😉

[Aneta]

47 minutes ago, Unventor said:

It is not that I don't agree with you but if things were only that simple. 

With your opinion then Gotway should be your brand. 

I can only say the my KS18L got a lot better with a year later firmware release. (I don't recall version but might be 1.12 or 1.13)

As for my KS16X I think it is near perfect with fw 1.07. Only thing I really miss is a proper weatherproofing. I almost ride my wheel(s) more than I drive my car. And despite condition here in Sweden, last year my skills developed so I can ride despite icy and snow conditions. 

I chose KS (and Inmotion) due to fw update abilities. Other reasons too. It is also why I would not choose a Gotway, one of the points. If I am right or wrong in my way of choosing I can't say. 

But if let's say a mobile app/os changes so you cannot communicate with a wheel anymore because of fixed/locked firmware, having an update option over USB option as KS would not be a bad idea or? 🤔😉

No problem with broken app at all for me, because I use cheap ($30) Android phones for specific tasks, like EUC riding and drone flying. I don't even use Play Store on them, I sideload APKs on them and forget about it - it works, "it just works". I don't crave for new "features". I want my experience with my EUC as rock stable during its serviceable lifespan as possible.

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, Aneta said:

Is upgradeable firmware a good thing or bad thing? Some EUC models don't have this ability, and are like traditional cars: you buy it, and it drives (handles) years later exactly the same when on day 1. Upgradeable FW may turn your $2000-3000 golden carriage into a pumpkin (or even worse - a brick), and you can't go back. It can also present you with difficult choices, like if they fixed critical issue A, but ruined feature B you loved - now you're sitting between two chairs, you can't have both A and B, what to do, what to do?

Upgradeable FW also gives slack to the manufacturer to release poorly tested product and fix problems later based on user feedback (read: broken bones).

The wheel should "just work", and its "handling"/character should be set in stone. If they update FW, it should only be minor, non-riding related improvements (e.g. changing the LED color patterns, or abilility to speak "please decelerate" in different languages, etc.) Riding character of the wheel is a sacred thing and must be immutable.

Us Gotway riders having been living like this forever. There can be downsides (once there was a firmware bug which required opening all of the wheels and updating the firmware, which could only be done by the dealer (shipping your wheel). But by and large we have survived.

I think all wheels should have the capability of getting the firmware updated, as we can with KingSong. However, this capability should include the ability to load whichever version you want. I despise that way the KingSong does it - there's no going back, so your golden carriage could indeed be turned into a pumpkin.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Another issue with 1.07 on my 16X

When charging to 90% 0r 80% with fast charger only on 2A

Charger gets to desired voltage level charger stops ,wheel announces Bluetooth is off ,charger starts up again for 2 sec then hit volt level again and stops wheel then announces Bluetooth is off and charger starts again this repeats over and over .

Unsure of the ramifications for wheel or charger if left in this state unnoticed 

So looks like fast charger now only good for 100% charging only 

WTF (excuse my French)

[RoadRunner]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

WTF (excuse my French)

That’s what i thought.

I am struggling a few weeks now, one day i think tomorrow I’ll do the update and the next day i read new things that i don’t like that make me think f... it better not. 

Its driving me crazy, so i think i will wait for 1.08 and be over with. 

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

That’s what i thought.

I am struggling a few weeks now, one day i think tomorrow I’ll do the update and the next day i read new things that i don’t like that make me think f... it better not. 

Its driving me crazy, so i think i will wait for 1.08 and be over with. 

You and me both brother 

[RoadRunner]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You and me both brother 

I have no problems with 1.05 because I don’t push it to it’s limits all the time , i don’t need to ride 49.5kph, sometimes i like to give it the spores but i now how to handle my wheel, i want to enjoy riding, don’t want to ride on the knifes edge.

And as i don’t ride in traffic, because here it’s not allowed to ride an EUC, i just need top speed if i have to flee from the cops. 

So i mostly ride in places where there is nobody, in the fields or in the woods where i can adjust my speeds how ever i like no need for me to push it because there are no cars behind me. And if i ride in traffic sometimes i ride the speeds that i feel comfortable with not the speeds that the asshole behind me wants me to.

I am old enough and my balls are big enough to do what i want and not what the others would like me to do. 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

19 hours ago, skautas2003 said:

@The Fat Unicyclist no offense but when you write like this there is no information in your post could you add some insights for comunity  ?

Could you write in your opinion what is 1.07 negatives and what is 1.07 positives when you compare to 1.05 ?

That it is possible to drive both versions to 50 km/h i can confirm too. But driving characteristic are different imo.

12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It would be extremely useful to me (and probably anyone else reading this thread) if you elaborate. Since you've apparently been experimenting and came up with a list of positives and negatives, perhaps you could be so kind as to provide a simple bullet list of the Positives & Negatives.

This is all very subjective so unless I know what you consider a positive, your generic comment isn't very convincing 

My apologies to everyone... It wasn't that I didn't want to add more detail, we have just been under the pump since returning from the LA EUC Games (dealing with a backlog of orders and a small issue with the 16X Bodyguard). We're on top of that now, so...

Probably the biggest difference that I notice is the smoothness... I think that v1.07 is "softer" across the whole charge - and I don't mean that in a bad way, just that it is perhaps more forgiving or maybe less harsh in how it reacts to the situation.

On v1.07 I've had my 16X up to 50 km/h and found it very stable, with the only wobble that occurred during braking being as a result of my actions (deciding to change direction and mount a dropped curb mid-brake).

There is throttling at lower battery levels, but it didn't feel unexpected to me and again it wasn't what I consider harsh.

I do hope the KS are still working on v1.08 , not because v1.07 is bad but because I feel that the 16X can still be better!

Edited November 15, 2019 by The Fat Unicyclist

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, Aneta said:

Is upgradeable firmware a good thing or bad thing?

As pointed up by Unventor and Marty, there are notable good and bad points to both approaches. Besides the well known MS3 firmware rodeo issue, Gotway had to silently modify the MSX firmware as well after the very first batch. My guess is they have had to do some other fixes on some models as well, but some bugs like the MSX distance reset are just left there. ”Set in stone” would only work well if they had the resources (and if the markets would allow) to test each wheel rigorously before release. And we all know that that isn’t and won’t be happening. With car manufacturers sure, but small EUC manufacturers in a fast paced new market sector, not so much.

But removing features, restricting top speed or otherwise limiting performance without a possibility to go back, that is the manufacturer abusing it’s position. I was able to dodge the bullet when an Airwheel mobile app update decreased the A3 top speed from 17 to 15 km/h (13%). If I didn’t, I’d have sent furious emails to Airwheel every week for the past three years.

The requirements we as customers set for the wheels change at a fast pace. The current trend in riding mode hardness for example, the difference is huge to wheels made just two years ago. I’d be the first to jump the gun if I had the possibility to upgrade a 2 year old wheel to current hardness standards.

”It just works” is a suitable approach for many simple things, but even a toilet paper holder may hang from a single loose screw, and only ”sort of” work. Add the complexity of a self-balancing vehicle that you have to trust with your life and we are entering a very different area of what ”working” entitles.

Having the possibility to keep one’s devices original is what @Aneta is embracing. Note the word possibility. Others may like the possibility to get new features. Gotway doesn’t give us the possibility to choose, others do. 

8 hours ago, Aneta said:

Riding character of the wheel is a sacred thing and must be immutable.

I don’t think many first adopters of MSX, 16S, 18XL or V10F agree with you on this one...

 

7 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Another issue with 1.07 on my 16X

When charging to 90% 0r 80% with fast charger only on 2A

Charger gets to desired voltage level charger stops ,wheel announces Bluetooth is off ,charger starts up again for 2 sec then hit volt level again and stops wheel then announces Bluetooth is off and charger starts again this repeats over and over .

That sounds to me like the (3rd party) charger wouldn’t be adjusted correctly. I’d contact the seller and ask for a support. Even the eWheels provided fast chargers have duds amongst them.

[mrelwood]

 

30 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Probably the biggest difference that I notice is the smoothness... I think that v1.07 is "softer" across the whole charge - and I don't mean that in a bad way, just that it is perhaps more forgiving or maybe less harsh in how it reacts to the situation.

I’m confused. Most people have said the 1.07 to be harder. Which riding mode do you use?

[Gaz Bon]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That sounds to me like the (3rd party) charger wouldn’t be adjusted correctly. I’d contact the seller and ask for a support. Even the eWheels provided fast chargers have duds amongst them.

Worked fine on 16X with 1.05 firmware works fine with my MSX 

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

9 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Another issue with 1.07 on my 16X

When charging to 90% 0r 80% with fast charger only on 2A

Charger gets to desired voltage level charger stops ,wheel announces Bluetooth is off ,charger starts up again for 2 sec then hit volt level again and stops wheel then announces Bluetooth is off and charger starts again this repeats over and over .

Unsure of the ramifications for wheel or charger if left in this state unnoticed 

So looks like fast charger now only good for 100% charging only 

 

 

 

I use the fast charger from 1radwerkstatt without any problems @90% with 1.0.7. 

The charger stop charging at 82V (displayed voltage on the charger) and the wheel shut off completely. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by buell47

[The Fat Unicyclist]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m confused. Most people have said the 1.07 to be harder. Which riding mode do you use?

I change riding mode between "Rider" and "Experienced" all the time... I prefer the firmer ride of "Experienced", but there are a lot of (significant) hills in my riding and I find dropping to "Player" mode works better uphill.

Possibly more significant is the fact that while I ride fast, I don't ride quick! By this I mean that while I ride up to 50 km/h, I do not get there quickly, rather I take my time accelerating slowly - and braking slowly too (unless something faster is necessary). Perhaps this alters the perception of the different FW handling?

[skautas2003]

14 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

I change riding mode between "Rider" and "Experienced" all the time... I prefer the firmer ride of "Experienced", but there are a lot of (significant) hills in my riding and I find dropping to "Player" mode works better uphill.

Possibly more significant is the fact that while I ride fast, I don't ride quick! By this I mean that while I ride up to 50 km/h, I do not get there quickly, rather I take my time accelerating slowly - and braking slowly too (unless something faster is necessary). Perhaps this alters the perception of the different FW handling?

I think yes if you accelerate slow and decelerate slow. And if it is ok to change to different riding mode near hills difference between FW minimum.

But in emergency situation you need to decelerate fast and then 1.05 is better imo.  

[HarpMudd]

It would be great to know if KS is working on 1.08...is anyone giving them direct feedback? For all we know, they may think everyone is happy with 1.07 and may not be really working on anything. So far it seems like all the feedback about 1.07 is all personal opinion and nothing concrete other than the beeping introduced by fast chargers > 4A. 

For now, I'm sticking with 1.05 until I see some actual data saying that the wheel's response and battery life is better and the throttling thresholds introduced is something I can live with. I would like the other bug fixes pertaining to lighting, but I can live without it. 1.07 doesn't seem bad by any means, but there's really nothing in the release driving me to update.

Like I've mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I've taken my wheel to max speed a lot and have ridden it until the battery is dry without worry. Hopefully my luck will not run out, but so far 1.05 has been extremely fast, responsive and safe for me.

Edited November 15, 2019 by HarpMudd

[RoadRunner]

1 hour ago, HarpMudd said:

It would be great to know if KS is working on 1.08

@Micheal Shen ?

[Micheal Shen]

For me, i have upgraded to V1.07 since October 1st. Basically, acceleration on V1.07 is more sensitive than it on V1.06
As for someone saying emergency brake causing wobbling, I don't have that feeling. While I find it's different with different outer tyre and inner tire pressure.

I used the hercules tyre, the original production used in KS-16X. My weight is around 74.5kg, it's obvious that 3.2 bar brake distance is short than 2.0 bar, also 3.2 bar emergency brake is a little stable than 2.0 bar. This feeling are on city roads, like cement pavement.

For offroad or off-city, I prefer 2.8 bar since it's more comfortable to ride than 3.2 bar, since there is not too much emergency brake. No need to worry about brake distance becoming long.

As for CST tyre, I didn't try it so that i couldn't tell the difference and feeling.

[RoadRunner]

@Micheal Shen the question was if KS is working on FW 1.08. 

[Mike Sacristan]

I updated to FW 1.07 today and it's great.
I would be interested to know at what battery voltage / percent you guys can hit 50kmh.

Details here:

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I updated to FW 1.07 today and it's great.
I would be interested to know at what battery voltage / percent you guys can hit 50kmh.

Details here:

 

For those of use who don't think in 'voltages', approximated what battery percentage does 71-volts equal?  Likewise 63-volts.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

For those of use who don't think in 'voltages', approximated what battery percentage does 71-volts equal?  Likewise 63-volts.

edit: not true, see @RoadRunner post below

16X only:

84V 100%

83V 95%
79V 76%
75V 57%
71V 38%
67V 19%
63.25V 1.2%

63V 0%

The voltage measurements aren't nearly good enough for this level of detail though. So real results may vary.

Edited November 17, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[RoadRunner]

11 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

16X only:

84V 100%

83V 95%
79V 76%
75V 57%
71V 38%
67V 19%
63.25V 1.2%

63V 0%

The voltage measurements aren't nearly good enough for this level of detail though. So real results may vary.

This is what the booklet of the 16X says. 

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

For those of use who don't think in 'voltages', approximated what battery percentage does 71-volts equal?  Likewise 63-volts.

I will update my post with this image as well.

Recalculated using V-value-63*5.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

This is what the booklet of the 16X says. 

I assumed that a) 84V is full (like they used to do, but apparently here it's 83V) and b) that they go linearly between 63V and 83V (then at least 2V would be 10%)

Neither is true for that table.

So KS did... some formula. Maybe related to a realistic discharge curve? Another mystery in the world of EUCs

Edited November 17, 2019 by meepmeepmayer