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Cuba Gonzalez

KS18XL 2200W motor

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I just got the link from Jason and it is a android phone type App and wait a second   I have it in my email...

here is the process for installing the new firmware after installing the new motor:
Just received news from KS, that after installing the upgraded motor, the KS special 'Soft Tuner' App (Android only) needs to be used to load the 2200W updated 18LH firmware in order to take proper advantage of the new motor: 
  1. You need to download & install this Engineers App (link below)
  2. When it prompts you to login, please use username=eWheelsLLC password=[removed]
  3. Change the orientation of the screen to landscape mode
  4. Press the 'Bluetooth off' button at the top to connect to the Wheel
  5. Select the option to upgrade firmware
  6. From the list choose the 18LH firmware, be careful to select the right one, the moment you press the firmware, it will immediately start transferring that firmare to the Wheel.  
Have a great day,
 
Jason 

 


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ug0Uc5dHlQx6ofnj5R8SR5ZFmmtpMXiG/view

 

i think it might appear

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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On 12/20/2019 at 3:08 AM, Mark Frey said:

I just got the link from Jason and it is a android phone type App and wait a second   I have it in my email...

here is the process for installing the new firmware after installing the new motor:
Just received news from KS, that after installing the upgraded motor, the KS special 'Soft Tuner' App (Android only) needs to be used to load the 2200W updated 18LH firmware in order to take proper advantage of the new motor: 
  1. You need to download & install this Engineers App (link below)
  2. When it prompts you to login, please use username=eWheelsLLC password=[removed]
  3. Change the orientation of the screen to landscape mode
  4. Press the 'Bluetooth off' button at the top to connect to the Wheel
  5. Select the option to upgrade firmware
  6. From the list choose the 18LH firmware, be careful to select the right one, the moment you press the firmware, it will immediately start transferring that firmare to the Wheel.  
Have a great day,
 
Jason 

 


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ug0Uc5dHlQx6ofnj5R8SR5ZFmmtpMXiG/view

 

i think it might appear

That worked great! Thanks for the link and info!

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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On 11/25/2019 at 8:22 PM, Rywokast said:

yes acceleration is really good now, i get up to tiltback in a couple of seconds, you dont realise how fast youre going because you put the same amount of effort into it as what youre used to and before you know it its tilting you back because youre going 50 lol, really good acceleration.. braking could be better but its an 18" its never gonna compare to something smaller, but still vastly improved.. it is doing some weird thing where it constantly oscillates back and forth now which is especially prevalent at slower speeds or around corners... and since the new firmware the pedals are now quite flimsy, like if i just grab the wheel and rock it back and forth it sways a lot, very noticeable.. strange i have never felt that behavior before, and it certainly didnt do that with the old motor.. recalibrated multiple times to no avail, its probably the firmware

After having tested the upgrade for a couple weeks now, I concur with Rywokast’s assessment of soft pedals.

At a standstill there’s more play in the pedals before motion of the wheel. I recall the same feeling when testing an MCM4, so I wonder if it’s the equivalent to a Gotway soft mode?
My 18XL is set to Experient (hardest) mode.

The feeling is a little disconcerting, coming from the rock solid v1.11 firmware. I’m willing to accept the softer pedal feel for the improved acceleration and braking - as long as the softness doesn’t get worse - in which case it might be due to pedal hangers loosening or a cracked shell. I’m still very happy with the upgrade. I just want to diagnose the soft pedal feel.

I’m curious if anyone else who’s done the upgrade has noticed softer pedal feel?

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Quote

At a standstill there’s more play in the pedals before motion of the wheel. I recall the same feeling when testing an MCM4, so I wonder if it’s the equivalent to a Gotway soft mode?

The current Gotway soft mode is fundamentally different from the MCM4 years of past. MCM4 and other wheels of that era indeed felt like you were standing on a springy mattress; the pedals will immediately dip when you lean. Modern Gotway soft mode feels rock hard (harder than 2000W 18XL 1.13fw hard mode for example) at first when you start leaning. And quick pendulums feel rock hard. But if you keep leaning, it will start to dip slowly.

Quote

My 18XL is set to Experient (hardest) mode.

The feeling is a little disconcerting, coming from the rock solid v1.11 firmware. I’m willing to accept the softer pedal feel for the improved acceleration and braking

The softness and exact behaviour of the riding mode is pretty much the only thing the manufacturer can do to affect acceleration, as long as the tire diameter stays the same. And so:

Quote

I’m curious if anyone else who’s done the upgrade has noticed softer pedal feel?

Since many people say that the acceleration is better, to me it translates directly to the riding mode being softer.

The same happened in inverse to the 16X. 1.07 lousy acceleration turned out to be a good bit harder riding mode; I understand that even the current medium is slightly harder than the old hard.

But to make the 18XL hard mode softer and take away the user’s choice doesn’t sound at all nice. I hope you can learn to like it.

Edited by mrelwood

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I hope you can learn to like it.

I’m fine with adjusting to it as the new normal.

The micro-responsiveness lost, reducing the ability to balance in one spot, doesn’t outweigh the benefits of acceleration and braking for me - I’m not using the 18XL as a trick wheel.

It was disconcerting because it kind of felt like when pedalling on a bicycle and the crank starts to loosen - you feel a little more play in the pedals - feels pretty cool until the pedals fall off. :shock2:

I’ll keep monitoring the “softness” to make sure it doesn’t get worse.

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18 hours ago, Asphalt said:

After having tested the upgrade for a couple weeks now, I concur with Rywokast’s assessment of soft pedals.

At a standstill there’s more play in the pedals before motion of the wheel. I recall the same feeling when testing an MCM4, so I wonder if it’s the equivalent to a Gotway soft mode?
My 18XL is set to Experient (hardest) mode.

The feeling is a little disconcerting, coming from the rock solid v1.11 firmware. I’m willing to accept the softer pedal feel for the improved acceleration and braking - as long as the softness doesn’t get worse - in which case it might be due to pedal hangers loosening or a cracked shell. I’m still very happy with the upgrade. I just want to diagnose the soft pedal feel.

I’m curious if anyone else who’s done the upgrade has noticed softer pedal feel?

From my own testing I don't think it's a "soft" pedal issue. Before updating the firmware the motor was over controlled at low speed. I think that was the source of my wheel shaking violently when slowing to a complete stop. The PCB may have been just snug, and only just loose enough to exaggerate the issue. Now that I've updated the firmware the behavior when stopped just seems to be that the motor has play between two positions of the coil and stator. That is probably what fixed the violent shaking. The wheel is firm once at speed and doesn't feel like soft pedals at all. 

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Has anyone one who has upgraded been able to dip the pedals forward about 25 mph much like chrisjunlee's 16x videos? I just experienced that on my ride home today (as a just unlocked the top speed). I was able to flick my toes and the pedals dipped forward. I can't dip them below 25 mph.

Edited by Flyboy10

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@Flyboy10 so you have a silent motor now but a loud fan. :laughbounce2:

And the new control board was the same that was already in your wheel right, so no need to change that?

For the bodyguard, my XL looks also brand new under the bodyguard.

 

Edited by RoadRunner

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19 hours ago, Asphalt said:

I'm guessing that the additional instantaneous power that the 2200W motor can pull from the battery necessitates a larger safety buffer.

The battery performance and voltage drop is notably worse at 5•C compared to summer temperatures, which might explain the worse performance at lower battery.

Disregarding that, I can’t see how the quoted guess could be correct. First, only the controller decides how much power the motor is given. The motor’s resistance load would only determine the current if the controller would completely open it’s valves, which it practically never does. Already the fuses would blow if it did. Second, keeping a rider upright on a 2200W motor doesn’t take any more power than keeping one upright on a 2000W motor. The motor doesn’t determine the required power, the rider does. Third, the wattage rating of the motor is pretty meaningless in regards of the delivered power. Some eBike portal had a great detailed writing on the subject. The subject was also touched in the ”What determines wheel zippyness” thread.

The new motor requires new software most likely because different motors usually require a slightly different PWM algorithm to operate.

That said, it obviously wouldn’t be the first time a manufacturer tightens the limits with a software upgrade. But unless the new motor has a notably worse efficiency, I can’t see how changing the label from 2000 to 2200 could be a reason for the lower limits.

 

@Flyboy10, nice video! I’m forever envious of your infinitely spaceous ”workshop”. :dribble:

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@Flyboy10 Thanks for the very useful video. I documented my experience, but haven't had the time to edit it, and yours is much better - so thanks for saving me the time (procrastination FTW)!

I can empathize with the feeling of chewing up your motor wires while putting the shell back on :( - there has to be a better way.

I haven't experienced the toe flicking above 25mph yet, but I will try once this torrential rain stops (forecast calls for at least a week of rain).

@mrelwood Perhaps my theory is incorrect, but my experience is the same - speed throttling at 50% battery. What do you think is the reason for Kingsong implementing this throttling in the latest firmware?

Edited by Asphalt
Clarified question.

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The throttling has always puzzled me a bit between Gotway and Kingsong. 

My mcm5 will get to top advertised speed on a full charge, the speed that it beeps is always dropping as the battery falls, and I would suspect this is the same on other Gotway wheels as wells.

Kingsong on the other hand seems to limit the top speed so that it can achieve that speed down to 50% under load then it starts dropping in step with battery voltage.  

In the case of the 18xl dropping from 50% instead of 25% I have no idea why they changed that. 

Is the general consensus that most people would rather have it done like Gotway and just drop the top speed as the voltage goes down? This should give us a 35mph 18xl on a full battery and 31 at around 50% under load. 

I dont hear anyone talking about the throttling on a Gotwat but they definitely dont go max speed down to 20% battery. I think it seems faster further down because 0% is not the same as a kingsong 0%. 

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1 hour ago, Flying W said:

I dont hear anyone talking about the throttling on a Gotwat but they definitely dont go max speed down to 20% battery.

'Go Twat' haha brilliant Freudian slip.

You are right, on Gotwats the beeps are based on a linear graph. Its only at 10% battery that the shit hits the fan and warnings go off like crazy.

For the MSX 84v, 58kmh at 100% battery and 45kmh at 10%. So the voltage Vs speed warning graph is not steep at all until you hit 10%.

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2 hours ago, Planemo said:

You are right, on Gotwats the beeps are based on a linear graph. Its only at 10% battery that the shit hits the fan and warnings go off like crazy.

For the MSX 84v, 58kmh at 100% battery and 45kmh at 10%. So the voltage Vs speed warning graph is not steep at all until you hit 10%.

There's also low battery/low voltage beeps starting at 15%. So no hoping for top speed down to 10%. Also there's the voltage drop. Realistically, Gotways start beeping at 30% no-load battery display (which gets close to 15% under voltage drop). Til then you can speed till you drop, after that it reduces the beep speed quickly and you will drop if you speed;)

3 hours ago, Flying W said:

The throttling has always puzzled me a bit between Gotway and Kingsong.

...

Two things:

  • As you said, the same voltage means different battery % for different wheels. On Gotways, 3.3V per cell is 0% battery. On the 18XL, 3.3V is 25%, on the 16X it is ~15%.
  • Kingsong just adds a max speed regardless of the battery, while Gotway takes the top speed as a percentage of the max motor speed at a given voltage.

The throttling behavior is less different than it seems. You can see it if you plot the speed limit vs. the thing that actually counts (battery voltage) instead of an arbitrarily computed battery percentage.

Here's a picture I made for this thread comparing the MSX and 18XL. The 18XL actually has less agressive speed throttling as soon as its self-imposed 50kph limit is out of the way, while the MSX is more careful.

c.png

So the throttling behavior differences are not as big as they may look.

Not sure exactly why the 18XL (new motor from the 16X) has different throttling from the 18XL (old motor). I guess it must be related to the motor is built. Or maybe KS just changed their mind.

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@mrelwood Thanks for the graph showing the differences between Kingsong and Gotway. It's quite interesting how differing manufacturer philosophies are implemented.

From an engineering perspective, Gotway's curve makes sense - reduce speed at the same rate as battery capability diminishes, maintaining a consistent factor of safety.

From a psychological perspective, Kingsong's curve feels better to ride - having top speed for longer.

I can see why Gotway riders are always asking for larger battery capacity - they can only experience top speed for the first 10%.

I can also see why some Gotway riders don't like doing group rides with Kingsongs - too slow at the start of the ride, but then the group has to stop to recharge and the benefits of Kingsong range are negated.

It's great that we have multiple manufacturers giving us options, but I dream of the day when we'll be able to tweak our own curves to optimize for weight, temperature, riding style, etc.

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What? The MSX is slower than a KS18XL/KS16X below around 75V/50% and beeping all the time at 15%? Damn! :shock2:

I think I have to read more about the MSX. 😢

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8 minutes ago, buell47 said:

What? The MSX is slower than a KS18XL/KS16X below around 75V/50% and beeping all the time at 15%? Damn! :shock2:

I think I have to read more about the MSX. 😢

You need to learn to ride two wheels, side-by-side, so you can make a full and unbiased evaluation...   ;)

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40 minutes ago, buell47 said:

What? The MSX is slower than a KS18XL/KS16X below around 75V/50% and beeping all the time at 15%? Damn! :shock2:

I think I have to read more about the MSX. 😢

Has anyone here actually done 50kmh on their 18XL at 70V?

Are we talking about the 84v MSX?

"84V" - 66V = 18V to play with. 
50% is at 75V. I get 5 beeps at 48kmh (80% alarm) and can easily push to a bit above 50 although it's not wise to do so.

At 75V on the 16X (60% battery) I get soft tilt-back at 44-45kmh. I actually have to press the soft tilt-back a bit to hit 45 and risk hitting the 88% alarm. I believe 18XL would also be limited to around 48kmh here.

So going for a ride with both wheels after X distance they would both get throttled just about as much in kmh but the MSX will always be faster.
The 16X will allow you to ride longer at lower speed though.

The MSX will start beeping at around 30%. So beeps at 40kmh and then as the ride progresses will beep at maybe 24-25kmh at 20% battery.
So when you are at 70V on the MSX there will be a voltage/battery alarm that you can ignore at 30kmh and still ride at 40kmh if that's your thing and even push to 45.
At 70V on the 16X you are still doing over 30kmh without a sound coming from the wheel.
At 66V on the MSX you get off because it's done.
At 66V on the 16X you are still doing 30kmh for another 10km.

The 5 beeps are impossible to hear in traffic and are very low volume so they are hard to hear with a helmet, wind, etc.


 

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19 hours ago, Planemo said:

'Go Twat' haha brilliant Freudian slip.

I blame my phones auto correct....because "gotwat" should be in everyone's phone dictionary :whistling:

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Technically (and only technically but hey;)), a tiltback is only a suggestion that the rider can ignore. As are beeps. So I consider them both to be "throttling" = the wheel does something to tell you to slow down = the wheel won't let you ride in peace = the wheel throttles you.

Anyways, the 18XL with the new motor from the 16X...

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I really hope they get the firmware sorted on both the XL and the 16x. There isnt any reason they can't make them perform like they should. 

Seems like the 2k watt motor was actually safer at higher speed. My mcm5 has 1500 watt motor and a tiny wheel and I have not had the pedals go soft on me above 25mph. I'm also 185 without gear so not exactly light payload for the wheel.

I'm holding off for a good working version of both the XL and the 16x before upgrading. 

Thanks for the videos @Flyboy10

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@Flying W All issues have been solved with the v2.00 software. At least for the 18XL. I can't speak for the 16X

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