360 cameras - which one is the best?

[ZenRyder]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The video looks almost like a video game. It seems to keep you focused well, the backround not so much.

I used the Color Plus option on output and I agree that it makes the colors pop, but it does look like a video game. (I don't think the OneX has that only the One R) The previous video I didn't use that option, but I exported in higher resolution H. 265 and the higher res output gets screwed up when YouTube compresses it. So there are a lot of post processing choices that I am still experimenting with to find the best output. 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Surely this isnt you speaking in realtime thru a helmet mic or even using the camera for sond at all?

Yes, I'm adding the commentary in post for multiple reasons. Wind noise and running over rocks isn't all that interesting to listen to. 

Plus, if you speed up or slow down the video (both of which make it more interesting) you can't keep the sound synced anyway. 

Plus, nobody want to watch a 90 minute ride. They just want the highlights. So, personally I think post processing makes it more interesting and watchable. 

[.....]

Thats good info and i totally agree about the sound. I'm just not convinced about the entire 360 thing, for my wants. I really like the way it captures so much and allows you to crop out more views later, but I am a little underwhelmed at the actual end result. Even at high resolutions, doesnt the image get cropped down A LOT, when using this 360 stuff? I know it starts at 4k, but is that 4or5k of TOTAL combined lenses? If so, wouldnt that translate into 2k per lens? Then crop down more and wind up with 1440 or less? Its really a cool pov with the 360 cams, but i just wonder if overall image quality suffers? How does your 360 do with just the one single lens? I am trying to figure out for myself if i would wind up preferring a glorious wide lens with great quality, or if the 360 cams can match it with added bonus of much more frame to choose from.  Of course i want my cake and eat it too! Im not starting a camera collection journey, I just cant use the gopro3 anymore, as it has ZERO image stabilization, and suffers badly when trying to get 4k. Combined with no more windows support, I really am at a loss of wtf is my next camera. Im slow to adapt, so any camera I have will likely be very old before replaced. Hell, I still use a $50 samsung hmx-300 and a freaking nikon coolpx2200. Im way overdue. Hell, i don't even have any editing software anymore, gopro studio went boom. Im messing with Filmora 9 trial and it seems pretty bad. Such a can of worms! Before I make rash judgement, I guess i need to find some RAW footage to view, as im sure youtube is fukn it all up.  I think I saw a file around here of the 360x

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Jon Stern]

@ShanesPlanet Sadly, most users don’t want to fire up their computers to edit and share content these days. That is why the mobile app for GoPro Max was launch before the Windows one.

As for Insta360’s red dot. I don’t think they knew how to eliminate it. It’s an issue with folded optics.

[.....]

7 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

@ShanesPlanet Sadly, most users don’t want to fire up their computers to edit and share content these days. That is why the mobile app for GoPro Max was launch before the Windows one.

As for Insta360’s red dot. I don’t think they knew how to eliminate it. It’s an issue with folded optics.

That is news to me. Seems kind of odd that a person would prefer a 4" screen, shit drive space, crap processing, dismal ergonomics; over a 4x27" multimonitor setup with numerous ssd's, massive processing power, great heat management, full sized interfaces and a solid desk to work on. I personally hate trying to even enter passwords into my droid device, let alone decide if an image or video is correct. Seems similar to listening to a song track on ipad speakers or shit earbuds, and claiming the quality is phenomenal. I have no intentions of abandoning an actual computer work environment. Im old fashioned, I like to try and do one thing at a time. I have been looking so hard at the gopro max(havent seen the red dot in it yet), now the hero 8 black too. Im just so behind on the game, ive lots more thinking to do.

Edited February 25, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[ZenRyder]

So true!!! Agree 100% about the editing on a phone!! 

Look at the earlier videos. They were done on a Hero 7 Black. 4k video. Half the time you get the pole in the shot. You get the ground or the upper body or you can tilt the camera and get the outward facing shot. It's just hard to use. Higher resolution is great, but trying to film it and the end result is less tusk the sum of the parts. 

The Twin edition gives you a 360 lens plus a 4k lens. It's like having a GoPro Max AND a Hero 8 for $479. I got mine in about 10 business days. 

https://www.insta360.com/mobile/product/insta360-oner_twin-edition

But there are some cons too. I'll go over them is an in depth review. 

[.....]

Very good points and thanks! I was also wondering if the OneR  with its single lens, somewhat 'clears' up my worry about 360 quality.  No matter how great the quality, I guess its moot if its of the wrong frames.

[ZenRyder]

8 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Very good points and thanks! I was also wondering if the OneR  with its single lens, somewhat 'clears' up my worry about 360 quality.  No matter how great the quality, I guess its moot if its of the wrong frames.

The One R 4k lens eliminates the quality issue completely. It's very similar to the GoPro Hero 8. Great stabilization but 4k quality.

When you take a 360 degree camera video footage with 5760x2880 resolution (higher than the 3840x2160 4k resolution) and reframe it you are only using a much smaller subset of those pixels in the final output which is why you don't get the crystal clear picture that you get with a standard 4k wide angle lens.

And as a purist, I understand the desire to get the highest quality possible. However, the 8k Qoocam has even higher resolution, but the pictures I've seen online with it by people in the real world (not their marketing department) do not looker better to me and the camera is a lot bigger and runs hotter.

In the end, the photo quality, the way you use it, the variety of the images you are able to capture, and how much you can do in post processing = the true value of the camera. So, having one that can do 4k and 360 is a great value. Those photos above are all from the 360 twin lens camera, but it would be cool to take footage on a ride with both cameras so you can see the difference in output quality. I really like the idea of that, so I'll do it and we'll see what you think. 

[.....]

You keep nudging me closer and closer the the insta360. I think you make VERY valid points. As with most things, the operator has a lot to do with final quality. I'd imagine the weakest link would be me and my lack of riding skill and camera skill. Looking forwards to your review comparing the two lenses. I wonder how that expensive 1" lens would do? Keep me posted, and again, cant thank you enough for your time in helping me in my ignorance. Before I forget.. have you tried with the lens covers on? I have this feeling any camera I get, will eventually skid down the street at least once. It is nice that the oneR lets you replace just the lens cube, but would be even better if the covers happened to work w/o fogging, no glare increase and actually do preotect lenses. It looks like the camera is nearer $800 if you add the caps and a 1" lens. I do think the only reason Im not liking the hero3 anymore is it has NO stabilization. @0 mins of action vid on it and it feels like a flashback hitting hard.

Edited February 25, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Jon Stern]

20 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

That is news to me. Seems kind of odd that a person would prefer a 4" screen, shit drive space, crap processing, dismal ergonomics; over a 4x27" multimonitor setup with numerous ssd's, massive processing power, great heat management, full sized interfaces and a solid desk to work on. I personally hate trying to even enter passwords into my droid device, let alone decide if an image or video is correct. Seems similar to listening to a song track on ipad speakers or shit earbuds, and claiming the quality is phenomenal. I have no intentions of abandoning an actual computer work environment. Im old fashioned, I like to try and do one thing at a time. I have been looking so hard at the gopro max(havent seen the red dot in it yet), now the hero 8 black too. Im just so behind on the game, ive lots more thinking to do.

Yes, it is kind of sad, but people seem to nearly always go for convenience.

You're right about the small screen and compromised UI on phones. As for the processing power, most people's phones are more powerful than their PCs. See: https://www.howtogeek.com/393139/mobile-cpus-are-now-as-fast-as-your-desktop-pc/

The Windows version of the GoPro player is currently in development.

There's no red dot in the GoPro Max. It doesn't use folded optics, and a lot of work went in to minimizing ghosting in the lens.

[.....]

Bit the bullet and ordered a 360r with all the trimmins. Have to see how long till it gets here. Hopefully viruses dont live thru overseas transport on inanimate/electronic objects.  I'll be putting it thru its paces carefully. Hope its a keeper, not much of a return policy on that one. Thanks for all the advice guys! Looking forward to someone ELSE taking the plunge on that $300 1" lens!

[travsformation]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:06 AM, ZenRyder said:

I used the Color Plus option on output and I agree that it makes the colors pop, but it does look like a video game. (I don't think the OneX has that only the One R)

It's available for the One X too, since it' a software option. In certain scenes it can look better with it on, but the only way to know is by rendering with it on and off, which is time-consuming (and in a 10' video, it might look great in some parts and ruin the image in others). Overall, I don't much care for it, I'd much rather handle the color correction manually in post

On 2/25/2020 at 8:27 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

Thats good info and i totally agree about the sound. I'm just not convinced about the entire 360 thing, for my wants. I really like the way it captures so much and allows you to crop out more views later, but I am a little underwhelmed at the actual end result. Even at high resolutions, doesnt the image get cropped down A LOT, when using this 360 stuff? I know it starts at 4k, but is that 4or5k of TOTAL combined lenses? If so, wouldnt that translate into 2k per lens? Then crop down more and wind up with 1440 or less? Its really a cool pov with the 360 cams, but i just wonder if overall image quality suffers?

If you see the pre-upload footage, it's pretty decent. Not comparable to a GoPro recording at 4K, but if it isn't for professional use, I think it's very decent. The biggest issue is Youtube compression...

The irony of the 360 is that its biggest strength is also its biggest weakness, in a way. I love the flexibility recording in 360 gives, it's like having your own personal cameraman. And the more I learn, the more fun it is, especially now that I'm getting a better feel for it, and when (depending on the landnscape) to hold the selfie stick in front, behind or beside me. You can get some truly awesome shots! BUT...it's a time-consuming process if you don't want a static camera and would rather get a little creative with your editing. That's the main thing that keeps me back from producing more content, and worth taking into account

Edited March 6, 2020 by travsformation

[Jon Stern]

https://gopro.com/en/gb/news/max-360-camera-firmware-update

NEW Latest release:
MAX Update v1.50 | May 6, 2020

MAX v1.50

NEW FEATURES

• 360 Mode: Adds 3K video at 60/50 fps.
• 360 Mode: Adds time lapse video and photo.
• HERO Mode: Extends horizon leveling capability to HERO TimeWarp and Photo modes.

PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS

• Boosts media offload speed to the GoPro app.

USABILITY IMPROVEMENTS

• General bug fixes.

[.....]

3 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

https://gopro.com/en/gb/news/max-360-camera-firmware-update

NEW Latest release:
MAX Update v1.50 | May 6, 2020

MAX v1.50

NEW FEATURES

• 360 Mode: Adds 3K video at 60/50 fps.
• 360 Mode: Adds time lapse video and photo.
• HERO Mode: Extends horizon leveling capability to HERO TimeWarp and Photo modes.

PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENTS

• Boosts media offload speed to the GoPro app.

USABILITY IMPROVEMENTS

• General bug fixes.

HELL YES!! Thank you for bringing to my attention I am ON IT!! Now, where full support for windows exporter? lolz

[Rich Sam]

Thanks for the great info guys!  I'm trying to convince myself I need a 360 camera.  I heard the insta360 one x2 has almost eliminated the red dot of death, I have been heavily leaning on getting that cam.

Trying to think of how I can spin this possible purchase as a family device and not my EUC play toy

[.....]

I wound up with the max 360. Support on the instaR is a little bit far away and lacking. In the end, max it went. It has its issues, but useable sound quality is not one of them. WHy spin the purchase? Take YOUR money and buy whatever the f**k YOU want!

Edited February 5, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Jon Stern]

You can now use GoPro Labs firmware on your Max camera.

Features include:

• Camera Control using QR Codes
• Camera Motion Triggers: Leverage the camera’s accelerometer and/or gyroscope to start/stop capture only when the camera is in motion, preserving storage and battery.
• USB Power Triggers: Your GoPro can start/stop capture when USB power is detected, enabling USB-triggered functions such as serving as a dash cam.
• Motion Detection Enhancements: Motion detection is now supported in all video modes, including 360° motion detection on MAX, with improvements to the sensitivity range.
• Simplified Live Streaming QR Code: Program GoPro to start live streaming within seconds of being connected to a designated Wi-Fi network.
• Single-Setting/One-Button Mode: Enable a one-button mode where the operator can only start/stop capture, making it impossible to accidentally change camera mode. This is designed to capture critical events.
• New Exposure Modes: Set timed exposure lock and minimum shutter speed settings.

https://community.gopro.com/t5/en/Introducing-GoPro-Labs/ta-p/603173

DCrainmaker has a good video that outlines the features: 

 

[Rawnei]

I just got the Insta360 One X2 and pretty satisfied with it, small, good battery, decent quality.

My first video, I used a LUT though to change the colors a bit because it was a bit of a gray day. 😋

 

[.....]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:35 PM, Jon Stern said:

You can now use GoPro Labs firmware on your Max camera.

Features include:

• Camera Control using QR Codes
• Camera Motion Triggers: Leverage the camera’s accelerometer and/or gyroscope to start/stop capture only when the camera is in motion, preserving storage and battery.
• USB Power Triggers: Your GoPro can start/stop capture when USB power is detected, enabling USB-triggered functions such as serving as a dash cam.
• Motion Detection Enhancements: Motion detection is now supported in all video modes, including 360° motion detection on MAX, with improvements to the sensitivity range.
• Simplified Live Streaming QR Code: Program GoPro to start live streaming within seconds of being connected to a designated Wi-Fi network.
• Single-Setting/One-Button Mode: Enable a one-button mode where the operator can only start/stop capture, making it impossible to accidentally change camera mode. This is designed to capture critical events.
• New Exposure Modes: Set timed exposure lock and minimum shutter speed settings.

https://community.gopro.com/t5/en/Introducing-GoPro-Labs/ta-p/603173

DCrainmaker has a good video that outlines the features: 

 

Great cam, still no way to convert it to high quality from 360, on a windows machine. Love the sound quality, hate the fact I've been tossed aside as a windows pc user and can't take advantage of anything high quality. It films in high quality, it uses TONS of storage, it gets beat to medium quality before it even makes it to my editor... I'm pretty sure my next cam will NOT be a gopro. after a decade of being pissed on, I feel I've been patient enough.

@Rawnei nice video! How do you find the workflow for it? Are you a windows user by chance?

Edited May 7, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Rich Sam]

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Great cam, still no way to convert it to high quality from 360, on a windows machine. Love the sound quality, hate the fact I've been tossed aside as a windows pc user and can't take advantage of anything high quality. It films in high quality, it uses TONS of storage, it gets beat to medium quality before it even makes it to my editor... I'm pretty sure my next cam will NOT be a gopro. after a decade of being pissed on, I feel I've been patient enough.

@Rawnei nice video! How do you find the workflow for it? Are you a windows user by chance?

Hi @ShanesPlanet, I picked up the insta360 One X2 and there is a way to get 4k+ takes from the cam on windows but the workflow is clunky.

My workflow:

every reframe [camera angle], you have to manually type in the resolution on each export.  there should be a way to default the export resolution, but there isn't.  Also I type in the export type.  I choose ProRes which is near lossless.  I cannot say enough how disappointed you can't default the same settings i literally use every time.

I then use Davinci Resolve to import 4k prores reframed video and create my story line. and export 4k 30fps out.

Because the vid is 4k 30 fps, YouTube will automagically give me the best codec of vp9.

Clunky... time-consuming... but very doable.

 

 

 

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 

@Rawnei nice video! How do you find the workflow for it? Are you a windows user by chance?

Windows yeah, I used Insta360 Studio for re-framing and Adobe Premiere Pro for editing, Insta360 Studio is not really for editing just for the re-framing but it does that really well, they have a re-framing plugin for Premiere too but it's not compatible with Premiere 2021 only 2019/2020.

The dashboards are actually EUC World data that I created with by importing the CSV into Dashware, syncing it with the video and then making a greenscreen clip that I could edit as I wanted in Premiere.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Rawnei

[.....]

8 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Windows yeah, I used Insta360 Studio for re-framing and Adobe Premiere Pro for editing, Insta360 Studio is not really for editing just for the re-framing but it does that really well, they have a re-framing plugin for Premiere too but it's not compatible with Premiere 2021 only 2019/2020.

The dashboards are actually EUC World data that I created with by importing the CSV into Dashware, syncing it with the video and then making a greenscreen clip that I could edit as I wanted in Premiere.

Gotcha. Pretty much my workflow, tho I have to use gopros reframe and then into PowerDirector. I'd like to try adobe, but i dont rent software. Whats the final resolution AFTER highest quality reframe, before editor? Have you tried using a 'purple' screen? I find that green screen sometimes shifts the tree colors in places. Lotsa green, much less purple. Adobe premier seems to be the goto for most. I typically export audio to work it in Reaper(Reaper.fm is awesome!). I'd imagine adobe has a decent audio section as well. THanks for the breakdown.

Edited May 7, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Rawnei]

5 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Gotcha. Pretty much my workflow, tho I have to use gopros reframe and then into PowerDirector. I'd like to try adobe, but i dont rent software. Whats the final resolution AFTER highest quality reframe, before editor? Have you tried using a 'purple' screen? I find that green screen sometimes shifts the tree colors in places. Lotsa green, much less purple. Adobe premier seems to be the goto for most. I typically export audio to work it in Reaper(Reaper.fm is awesome!). I'd imagine adobe has a decent audio section as well. THanks for the breakdown.

You get to select your resolution so I re-frame to 4K even if the source is not that. Also greenscreen is just the name I acutally use blue color. 😋 You can use any color you like that doesn't match any colors in the graphics you want to keep.

[ZenRyder]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'm pretty sure my next cam will NOT be a gopro. after a decade of being pissed on, I feel I've been patient enough.

I second that @ShanesPlanet. I left GoPro because they put out Mac software, but crap on the Windows platform which is used by most people. I don't want to edit GB files on my phone (imagine that). I guess I'm not in their target market (a millennial that only cares about TikTok and IG).

40 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

The dashboards are actually EUC World data that I created with by importing the CSV into Dashware, syncing it with the video and then making a greenscreen clip that I could edit as I wanted in Premiere.

This is cool, I tried out Dashware a while ago before EUC World exported the data in a good enough format and it was a pain. Now that EUC World data works, maybe I'll try it again. I like all the telemetry, but the GPS output from GoPro and Insta360 are both sketchy at best. The truth is that your phone GPS tracking is better than their little devices and more accurate, so EUC World is a good source. Thanks for the info.

[Rawnei]

16 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

I second that @ShanesPlanet. I left GoPro because they put out Mac software, but crap on the Windows platform which is used by most people. I don't want to edit GB files on my phone (imagine that). I guess I'm not in their target market (a millennial that only cares about TikTok and IG).

This is cool, I tried out Dashware a while ago before EUC World exported the data in a good enough format and it was a pain. Now that EUC World data works, maybe I'll try it again. I like all the telemetry, but the GPS output from GoPro and Insta360 are both sketchy at best. The truth is that your phone GPS tracking is better than their little devices and more accurate, so EUC World is a good source. Thanks for the info.

The Insta360 actually uses your phone GPS data, but to actually get GPS data you need to start the recording via the app in your phone and leave it open which is not very practical. With EUC World data you get all those wheel statistics to play around with, in my video you can see Voltage, Ampere and Power for instance.

[Jon Stern]

9 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

I second that @ShanesPlanet. I left GoPro because they put out Mac software, but crap on the Windows platform which is used by most people. I don't want to edit GB files on my phone (imagine that). I guess I'm not in their target market (a millennial that only cares about TikTok and IG).

There's going to be more work put in to desktop software in the future. We swung too hard in the direction of mobile apps IMO, but in fairness that was immediately after the drone and media businesses were wound down and the company had to cut costs to get back to profitability. None of that helps you, the customer, but now that GoPro is profitable again, there will be a lot more focus on making sure we don't leave group of customers behind. Those kind of tough decisions are behind us.