InMotion V8f

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, Nic said:

At 15:30 in this review the reviewer says the v8 pedals are stiffer during hard acceleration than on the KS16S and stay flat unlike the KS16S which tends to dip.

...and then the one that had ridden the V8 for a year had to bail during a hard acceleration.

I didn’t check the date on video, but between the latest fw version for a standard 840Wh (that I’ve ridden for 9000+ km) and a V8 my friend bought a few months ago, as the V8 owner said himself, the 16S in hard mode feels a lot more powerful under all riding situations, and the V8 pedals are a lot softer.

Unless there is a hidden ride mode setting for the V8, the difference is large in the 16S’s favor.

 

6 hours ago, Rywokast said:

idk what anyones talking about... every pedal on every euc ive ever ridden BESIDES the ninebot one (which i think it intentional), has been absolutely rock solid...

Let me guess, you haven’t ridden a Gotway that was made in the last 1.5-2 years? They really transformed the scale. It was only after getting my MSX that I realized that the ”rock solid” pedals on my 16S are actually covered in cushy foam after all...

[Rywokast]

49 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

...and then the one that had ridden the V8 for a year had to bail during a hard acceleration.

I didn’t check the date on video, but between the latest fw version for a standard 840Wh (that I’ve ridden for 9000+ km) and a V8 my friend bought a few months ago, as the V8 owner said himself, the 16S in hard mode feels a lot more powerful under all riding situations, and the V8 pedals are a lot softer.

Unless there is a hidden ride mode setting for the V8, the difference is large in the 16S’s favor.

 

Let me guess, you haven’t ridden a Gotway that was made in the last 1.5-2 years? They really transformed the scale. It was only after getting my MSX that I realized that the ”rock solid” pedals on my 16S are actually covered in cushy foam after all...

old model tesla is the latest gotway i have ridden.. lol, i would love to try the MSX

[MexicanBatman]

My 84v MSX in soft mode is harder than my V10F @ 100%
 

that said I also like the ninebot one for riding around the house, it’s a nice fluid ride

 

difference is that’s going 15km/h not 40-50km/h and I’d say it’d be terrifying if the Gotway had that level of pedal movement 

[mike_bike_kite]

8 minutes ago, Trevor Phillips said:

I also like the ninebot one for riding around the house, it’s a nice fluid ride

How big is your house? 

[MexicanBatman]

Quite small 

 

but around the kitchen through the living room and out the back door, then repeat LOL

 

good to keep up the skills

 

bit sadly I’ve sold it, and the MSX I can just manage, but I can see a MSX shape in the wall soon

 

MSX is a beast, but it can’t match the One S2 around the couch!

[AtlasP]

It appears many people conflate pedal hardness (as in, responsiveness due to software algorithm tuning) and responsiveness due to overall hardware power/torque. These are fundamentally different things.

On 11/7/2019 at 1:12 AM, mrelwood said:

the 16S in hard mode feels a lot more powerful under all riding situations

Yes of course, it's a 50% bigger motor (1200W vs 800W).

On 11/7/2019 at 1:12 AM, mrelwood said:

...and the V8 pedals are a lot softer

No. The V8 is less powerful hardware-wise and hence has less acceleration/less hardware responsiveness, but the pedal algorithm (software responsiveness) is absolutely tuned hard/only hard with no option to 'soften'. Pedal softness includes a pendulum motion of which the V8 has none.

Edited November 9, 2019 by AtlasP

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

No. The V8 is a lot less powerful/slower and hence has less responsiveness, but the pedal algorithm is hard/only hard with no options to 'soften'.

i didnt say that, mrelwood did 

[AtlasP]

Sorry, 'quote selection' feature b0rked somehow--it's so kludgy to deal with but I managed to fix it.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by AtlasP

[Mono]

8 hours ago, AtlasP said:

It appears many people conflate pedal hardness (as in, responsiveness due to software algorithm tuning) and responsiveness due to overall hardware power/torque. These are fundamentally different things.

How so? Either the motor produces torque to prevent tilting or it doesn't. There are no more options, as this is the only way the wheel can react. Why the wheel does or does not produce the torque to keep the pedals tightly horizontal doesn't make a difference for the sensation at all, AFAICS.

There is a difference between quick and slow tilt angle changes, obviously, but I am not sure why calling these "fundamentally" different things.

Then there are different geometries which probably also lead to different riding sensations.

[mrelwood]

13 hours ago, AtlasP said:

It appears many people conflate pedal hardness (as in, responsiveness due to software algorithm tuning) and responsiveness due to overall hardware power/torque. These are fundamentally different things.

They are caused by different things, but as Mono wrote, the outcome is the same. 

13 hours ago, AtlasP said:

No. The V8 is less powerful hardware-wise and hence has less acceleration/less hardware responsiveness, but the pedal algorithm (software responsiveness) is absolutely tuned hard/only hard with no option to 'soften'. Pedal softness includes a pendulum motion of which the V8 has *none*.

Either you assume a lot, or you have been working with Inmotion and have inside information. Given that this is just an anonymous discussion forum, I do have a guess.

Pedal softness (or whatever you want to call it) can be felt differently under various situations. I call the V8 riding mode softer, since for my weight and height the pedals feel softer long before I was anywhere near the announced nominal, let alone the peak power. The power curves are not scaled in a way that a 800W wheel would provide less than a 1200W wheel when both are asked for 300W. If you listen to a 1000W stereo system turned way down, can you hear that it’s a more powerful one than the 500W system next to it?

 Therefore the only reasonable outcome is that the V8 software allows for more forward tilt under the same peaceful riding situations than the 16S in hard mode.

Due to the insecure feeling I had on the V8, which was after all a new experience for me, I rode very peacefully until we switched back to my 16S. I have no idea how the wheel feels when pushed. What me and my friend do know for certain is that when I ride peacefully, my friend’s new V8 tilts more than my 16S.

[Mono]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

my friend’s new V8 tilts more than my 16S

that may become less when re-calibrated

[xorbe]

Like electric cars, it's possible EUCs don't provide peak torque until a certain speed.  So it's possible a lesser wheel just might out-torque another wheel in some conditions simply due to artificial limitations.

[Aneta]

1 hour ago, xorbe said:

Like electric cars, it's possible EUCs don't provide peak torque until a certain speed.  So it's possible a lesser wheel just might out-torque another wheel in some conditions simply due to artificial limitations.

Unfortunately, this is not the case with EUCs: the max available torque is max at zero speed and it's all downhill from there, down to zero torque at no-load speed. Thus, the "margin of safety" torque left to counterpart the unexpected resistance to motion (bumps, potholes, inclines, wind, etc.) is very quickly dwindling with increasing speed.

Looking at the falling blue line in the Motor Simulator (thrust), it struck me that it can be liked to thinner and thinner ice as one walks towards the middle of partially frozen river:

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=cust_72_0.2_14&cont=cust_80_200_0.03_V&wheel=18i&mass=120&hp=0&blue=Lbs&autothrot=false&throt=100&frame=cust_1_0.02&grade=0

Literally: riding faster and faster on an EUC is like walking towards thinner ice.

[mike_bike_kite]

@AnetaCan you explain that graph for simple folk like me?

[Aneta]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

@AnetaCan you explain that graph for simple folk like me?

It is explained in such great detail below the graph that I doubt my explanation would be better. One important detail, though: the vertical black dashed line represents the speed where the motor's mechanical power (red line) is equal to load power (rolling resistance and air drag, gray line). That's for an ebike, where the speed is controlled by throttle (100% throttle is chosen to show max speed). We on EUCs don't have "literal" throttles - our throttle is motherboard's attitude relative to calibrated attitude, as measured by gyro and accelerometer. So, 100% throttle in our case would mean riding right on the verge of an overlean - balance so delicate that even a mosquito hitting us in the face would result in an overlean. Thus, we can never truly achieve full 100%.

The important thing to think about is how quickly the difference between red curve and gray curve (this is our safety margin - excess power that the motor has over motion resistance) dwindles as we approach the max speed. We're literally walking on thin ice!

[xorbe]

6 hours ago, Aneta said:

Unfortunately, this is not the case with EUCs: the max available torque is max at zero speed and it's all downhill from there, down to zero torque at no-load speed

I knew I should have said power instead of torque.  My point is that a wheel may raise peak power delivery with speed different than another wheel.

[Aneta]

2 hours ago, xorbe said:

I knew I should have said power instead of torque.  My point is that a wheel may raise peak power delivery with speed different than another wheel.

I think "power" is somewhat an artificial concept. It's an amount of energy spent per second, and in our case the mechanical power is thrust times speed, or (same thing) torgue times angular speed (RPM). But thrust alone is more important to us. If thrust is insufficient to overcome increased resistance, we fall (overlean). But on the left side of the power's bell curve (red line), the power is increasing with speed, at the same time as thrust is decreasing, and resistance (air drag, mostly) is increasing! So, power increasing with speed is not a reason to celebrate; it's the torque falling with speed that is truly sobering.

[AtlasP]

The fundamental difference between pedal hardness/softness due to software algorithm/setting and pedal hardness/softness due to hardware power/torque is illustrated/demonstrated in how they are affected by rider weight.

If you put both a light rider and a heavy rider on for example a KS16S tuned to the softest setting in software, they will both experience a similar ride feeling complete with a pronounced sensation of pendulum motion. If you put both those riders on that same KS16S tuned to the hardest setting in software, they will both experience a similar ride feeling including the firmness of the pedals and a lack of any pendulum motion. This is the variable of pedal hardness/softness isolated.

If you put both those riders on a V8 which only has a hard software setting but with much more limited hardware power/torque, the light rider will experience pedal hardness very similar/damn-near-equivalent to the KS16S on its hard setting, whereas the heavy rider may experience a bit more 'softness'/'squidginess' in the pedals due to the limitations of the wheel's hardware responsiveness in accommodating the heavier rider's weight.

I think we should identify/differentiate the latter case as a separate attribute/phenomenon because 1) it *is* a different phenomenon with a different cause and 2) it is highly variable/dependent on rider. The fact that a heavy rider might be able to brute force a V8 to being more soft (due to their extra leverage) doesn't make the wheel itself objectively more soft--and it certainly doesn't make it more soft respective to and for lighter riders who never experience that at all.

Furthermore we already have separate concepts for things like torque/acceleration/responsiveness. These can obviously affect/compound the feeling of pedal hardness/softness, but conflating the former with the latter just muddies discussion on the subject. I think we are much better off whenever possible maintaining the conceptual distinction between that which is due to software and that which is due to hardware.

Edited November 9, 2019 by AtlasP

[Mono]

7 hours ago, xorbe said:

My point is that a wheel may raise peak power delivery with speed different than another wheel.

There seem to be hard physical limitations though, are you aware of what back EMF is?

5 hours ago, Aneta said:

I think "power" is somewhat an artificial concept. It's an amount of energy spent per second, and in our case the mechanical power is thrust times speed, or (same thing) torgue times angular speed (RPM). But thrust alone is more important to us. If thrust is insufficient to overcome increased resistance, we fall (overlean). But on the left side of the power's bell curve (red line), the power is increasing with speed, at the same time as thrust is decreasing, and resistance (air drag, mostly) is increasing! So, power increasing with speed is not a reason to celebrate; it's the torque falling with speed that is truly sobering.

Good point, consumed energy per time is indeed not the relevant parameter here, in particular because it is proportional to speed.

Just because it is so important: by bending the knees one can (always) bring the wheel back under the body and prevent an imminent overlean/faceplant.

Another funny thought: at high speed spreading the arms should produce an uprighting moment due to increased drag.

 

[Chriull]

17 hours ago, xorbe said:

Like electric cars, it's possible EUCs don't provide peak torque until a certain speed.  

This could be a different way of describing the current limit in firmware (as is implemented for 9bots, maybe KS, not the new GW) (or some other (low) speed related current limit) to save the electronics, the wires and the motor.

But current limit would mean about constant torque up until hitting the limit, from there on decreasing torque by physical limitations.

[VicViPER]

  Different ride modes ... pedal hardness/softness from app now.

[Asphalt]

Hope they can sort out the high-speed vibrations and tilt-back issues. 
I’m excited about the potentially lighter weight on the production version, but am slightly skeptical with EUC manufacturers making changes between reviewed test units and production units - too high a chance of introducing new issues.

I just hope InMotion doesn’t rush out the launch of the V8f and that they’ve learned their lesson from the V10 launch.

[Phong Vu]

"The performance feels closer to V10 than V8"
Sound promising  

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

If you put both those riders on a V8 which only has a hard software setting but with much more limited hardware power/torque, the light rider will experience pedal hardness very similar/damn-near-equivalent to the KS16S on its hard setting, whereas the heavy rider may experience a bit more 'softness'/'squidginess' in the pedals due to the limitations of the wheel's hardware responsiveness in accommodating the heavier rider's weight.

I find it interesting that you call the only available riding mode ”a hard setting”.

EUCs don’t have a way to measure the rider’s weight, the motor is powered only based on the amount of forward tilt. If a heavy rider and a light rider apply the same amount of force to tilt the pedals forward, the wheel will apply the same amount of power. If the hardware is not near to it’s limits, the motor will succesfully apply the requested amount of power as well.

Obviously for the same amount of tilt force at the pedals the light rider must lean further forward, and he will in turn accelerate faster.

Quote

a heavy rider might be able to brute force a V8 to being more soft (due to their extra leverage) doesn't make the wheel itself objectively more soft--and it certainly doesn't make it more soft respective to and for lighter riders who never experience that at all.

I assume that you are responding to my earlier comments. Maybe you missed my previous reply. Key points:

1) I only rode the V8 far short of it’s maximum speed, and only with very slow accelerations, and didn’t accelerate uphill at all. Mr Brute Force wasn’t even in the same part of the town at the moment.

2) The V8 owner is a short and very skinny guy, weighing just 65kg if my memory serves me correctly. He had the exact same observation, that the pedals on the 16S felt more firm, and he said that the wheel feels significantly more powerful than his V8.

(This was despite the very large pedal extensions I have on my 16S, which would make it easier to overpower the wheel and bring out the power related softness.)

We do know that pedal firmness does not relate to the available power. For example, the 500W S2 feels harder than the 1200W 16S.

Unless the wheel is nearing it’s limits, the pedal hardness only tells us how the manufacturer decided to program the response curve. Heavy riders can assess this just as much as light riders. Actually, I can even see and feel it to some extent while rolling my 16S and the MSX back and forth without a rider at all.

Also, neither the motor, battery nor the controller knows what their own actual maximum performance rating is. They apply the requested power until they can’t. Just like a 1000W light bulb will get the same amount of current regardless of being run by a 10A or a 40A fuse. Usually there are programmed limitations on EUCs, such as the ”overpower” warning and a tilt-back on newer Kingsongs, but their thresholds are just calculated by the manufacturer. Unplug the other battery and the warnings come too late, since the max available current is now half of what the firmware assumes.

But none of this is to say that the V8 pedals are soft on any specific scale. When I got my 16S with the 2017 firmware, even the medium mode was far harder than I thought could even be possible on an EUC. A year later I tried the V10F with the 1st gen firmware. Same thing, harder than should be possible without magic. Again a year later I bought the MSX, and just like before, harder than I still thought possible.

If you feel that the riding mode on your V8 is hard and solid, that’s fine! I’m not arguing with that. But I do have some experience to compare the V8’s riding mode to a few other wheels, and there are harder ones available. A difference that can be felt even when riding peacefully at 10km/h.

 

Edit: From the V8F review video linked at the previous page, "the V8F power feels closer to a V10F than a V8". So a 1000W wheel feels closer to a 2000W wheel than to a 800W wheel. The math doesn't really work, so the difference must be mostly in differences in the programmed behaviour. The trend for the last 2 years has been to make the riding modes more and more stiff, so I think this was a smart move from Inmotion.

Edited November 10, 2019 by mrelwood

[Planemo]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

But none of this is to say that the V8 pedals are soft on any specific scale. When I got my 16S with the 2017 firmware, even the medium mode was far harder than I thought could even be possible on an EUC. A year later I tried the V10F with the 1st gen firmware. Same thing, harder than should be possible without magic. Again a year later I bought the MSX, and just like before, harder than I still thought possible.

To this day I am staggered at how hard our EUC's are. When I got my first wheel - the V5F - I couldn't believe how the machine could almost 'anticipate' lean when it wasn't actually leaning. I think the term 'unbelievable resolution' sprang to mind. To be able to monitor, adjust and apply just the right power to keep the thing perfectly upright under such short time periods and without stuttering/cogging or anything else just amazed me, and still does. I think I expected to feel some 'lean' in the wheel before it did anything, or at least feel the 'cogging' of the magnets in the motor, but nothing. Same with the Z on hardest mode.

I *can* get the Z to tip a little when set to the softest mode so it's nice to actually have the experience of what 'soft' and 'hard' feels like, but I have found that personally I always prefer the hardest setting on any wheel.

Following your comment above, I really do wonder how much harder things can get. My Z feels rock solid on setting zero, but maybe I just haven't experienced anything harder!

Our machines really are amazing bits of tech