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InMotion V8f


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On 10/30/2019 at 10:43 AM, Mono said:

My range distribution records show that using 400Wh (83%) of the 480Wh battery would get my 80kg as far as 20km in 90%, 26km in 50% and 34km in 10% of the trips I made, depending on how hard and fast I was riding.

As for me, weighing 97kg, 400wh would be enough for short trips. But considering i could even want more range than what my msx delivers, the v8f would definitely not be right for me. But for someone doing shorts trips who needs something fairly compact it would be ok. But i would still pick the tesla. 

Edited by Shad0z
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4 hours ago, mr.and said:

Are you sure those specs are official?

The photos on that page are of the V8 (small pedals and no cushioned side pads).

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2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

It was only a matter of time before the info leaked, yeah, this is right. The proposition of the V8F is for new Riders, looking for a light Wheel that has superior performance to the V8—that 35kph max speed is the main selling point—with a higher safety margin, while also be comparatively light, & only marginally more expensive. There's quite a few incremental upgrades: larger pedals, slightly larger 2.125 tire, MJ1 cells, 200W uprate in the motor, better pads, new MOSFETs, which combined should add up to a pretty nice package. The V8 is the best selling Wheel of all time,  V8F hopes to build upon this success.    

Official release date is 20th Nov. 

I'm not a new rider, but the V8f looks like it hits the sweet spot as an every day commuter. The additional 2.2 lb weight increase seems justified for all the improvements.

If the price is reasonable, this will be hit.

Looks like InMotion took user feedback to heart on this upgrade. The only improvement I'd like to see is a better rear light - something that is visible by cars and operates like a standard vehicle light (solid on state, but gets brighter when braking).

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Disappointing specs. I was eagerly waiting for the refreshed model, because I wanted to upgrade my V8. But selling V8 and then buying V8F just to have +200W power doesn't seem to be worth the hassle.

Or does a modern 1000W motor work MUCH better than 3 y/o 800W?

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59 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I sure hope a 35kph 2p wheel won't be a problem, going by the V8:mellow:

Very much this. Perhaps at the very least they're using Panasonic GA's, the 18650 high capacity / high drain champion s/o @Ben Kim (? - but if so, this would reduce potential range?, but perhaps that's not the point here...)

 

Gonna be interesting to see if existing V8 used & NOS wheels will cannibalize the sales of these V8F's, as the specs are just a bump up from the V8, & 1kW nom wheels are still in aggressive overlean cutout territory. Pricing differentiation will be key here I think. (also, I imagine this V8F top speed will instantly get throttled after 1/3rd of the battery like the current V10F(?)) But maybe the recent bump up in EUC adoption growth will support the existence of both models for newbies(?)

 

Also gonna be interesting to see if all the V8 owners who were clamoring for this spec bump-up V8 successor model will put their money where their mouth is, as I think they were unrealistically expecting some sort of fantasy V8 upgrade where the weight would stay the same, but the range and power doubled (was never going to happen IMHO). I personally had voted for a lightweight V5 successor in super fat tire (14x3!), ideally with 21700 2p, not 18650 2p.

 

What I'm personally more curious about here is if they pulled some under-the-hood tricks on reducing the extraneous motor weight, ala the ever-weight-shrinking Gotway Monster motors from v1-v3. If so, I think this is promising for reducing the weight of possible future InMotion EUC models that are more compelling for this forum audience.

Edited by houseofjob
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1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Very much this. Perhaps at the very least they're using Panasonic GA's, the 18650 high capacity / high drain champion s/o @Ben Kim (? - but if so, this would reduce potential range?, but perhaps that's not the point here...)

 

Gonna be interesting to see if existing V8 used & NOS wheels will cannibalize the sales of these V8F's, as the specs are just a bump up from the V8, & 1kW nom wheels are still in aggressive overlean cutout territory. Pricing differentiation will be key here I think. (also, I imagine this V8F top speed will instantly get throttled after 1/3rd of the battery like the current V10F(?)) But maybe the recent bump up in EUC adoption growth will support the existence of both models for newbies(?)

 

Also gonna be interesting to see if all the V8 owners who were clamoring for this spec bump-up V8 successor model will put their money where their mouth is, as I think they were unrealistically expecting some sort of fantasy V8 upgrade where the weight would stay the same, but the range and power doubled (was never going to happen IMHO). I personally had voted for a lightweight V5 successor in super fat tire (14x3!), ideally with 21700 2p, not 18650 2p.

 

What I'm personally more curious about here is if they pulled some under-the-hood tricks on reducing the extraneous motor weight, ala the ever-weight-shrinking Gotway Monster motors from v1-v3. If so, I think this is promising for reducing the weight of possible future InMotion EUC models that are more compelling for this forum audience.

Says they’re using LG MJ1s, very similar to Sanyo GAs in performance and capacity.

MJ1s sag more under load but have superior cycle life over time and work better in extreme temps. All in all, the cells are of high quality! Generally speaking, it appears all of the brand name EUCs use quality batteries. Not really a point of concern like it would be on a cheapo e-scooter. 

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Did they lower the pedals on the V8F shell (not overall, just the shell)?  Because obviously the V8F shell is riding more than 4mm higher than the V8, but the specs say the pedals only went up 4mm.  Didn't the V8 come with 16x2.125 already?  So they shrunk the tire to 1.95, then put the 2.125 back on and called it wider?  Also, the pics are identical on the V8 and V8F pages.

Edited by xorbe
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3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I sure hope a 35kph 2p wheel won't be a problem, going by the V8:mellow:

But it has an enormous multi-hundred watt boost in motor wattage! :blink1:

16 minutes ago, xorbe said:

So they shrunk the tire to 1.95, then put the 2.125 back on and called it wider?

They did. Dynamic sales tactics!

The V8F is obviously not a wheel that current V8 owners would upgrade to. Or a contender for people who wouldn’t consider the V8 either. But for those who would consider the V8, I think it’s a decent upgrade. Alrhough, I would still lean towards the 16S for the same speeds for a 100kg rider.

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The v8/v8f is a good option if you have the skills to upgrade the battery pack to 20s3p (not easy, but doable) ... then its still a lightweight wheel (<15kg) with more power and range. For 'last mile' commute the basic configuration is fine and a match for most of the popular escooters people are using. Batteries are expensive and the v10 is available for those wanting a better upgrade. Obviously I won't be upgrading my v8 to a v8f as I already upgraded my battery and so my version is what I would have hoped the v8f would have been. I think the price is a bit high given the now outdated specs and there are some good escooters available at the $1000 price point (£1000/$1300 in UK). The v8 is a good reliable wheel so its still a good choice for short range trips. The v8 with 20s3p battery pack upgrade has peak motor power of 2400W (30A) compared to 1600W (20A) with the standard pack, so powerful enough for safe relaxed riding at typical bicycle speeds. I don't see myself upgrading to a better wheel until I have a lot more experience and confidence in my riding skills, so not any time soon. Its still illegal to ride these in the UK so that is keeping me from using my EUC more as I haven't seen any one else riding one in my area.

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5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

It was only a matter of time before the info leaked, yeah, this is right. The proposition of the V8F is for new Riders, looking for a light Wheel that has superior performance to the V8—that 35kph max speed is the main selling point—with a higher safety margin, while also be comparatively light, & only marginally more expensive. There's quite a few incremental upgrades: larger pedals, slightly larger 2.125 tire, MJ1 cells, 200W uprate in the motor, better pads, new MOSFETs, which combined should add up to a pretty nice package. The V8 is the best selling Wheel of all time,  V8F hopes to build upon this success.    

Is there a small chance that the headlight improved as well? If I had the choice, I would rather like to see a headlight improvement over a rear light. The side LEDs give already quite some visibility to the back anyway.

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The V8F is obviously not a wheel that current V8 owners would upgrade to.

If I would trust the pedals I would definitely consider the V8F as my next wheel, "upgrading" from the V8. AFAICS there is no 16" alternative in this weight and shape category. However, having bought a set of V10 pedals and broken them after a few months and seen the alleged "new" design of these pedals I'll stay away and wait (until I find out that this redesign miraculously did its job or InMotion re-redesigns the pedals once again).

 

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3 hours ago, Herbas said:

Disappointing specs. I was eagerly waiting for the refreshed model, because I wanted to upgrade my V8. But selling V8 and then buying V8F just to have +200W power doesn't seem to be worth the hassle.

Or does a modern 1000W motor work MUCH better than 3 y/o 800W?

It’s a refresh of the best selling EUC staying in the same price and weight point. Upgraded V8 is called V10(F). Bigger battery and motor would make it heavier and more expensive. I don’t see a point in making the V8f very close to V10 in price and weight. The only difference would be tire width. 

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The V8F is obviously not a wheel that current V8 owners would upgrade to. Or a contender for people who wouldn’t consider the V8 either. But for those who would consider the V8, I think it’s a decent upgrade. Alrhough, I would still lean towards the 16S for the same speeds for a 100kg rider.

True, as V8 owner, I only interest to see if I can user V8F battery and pedals without any modifications.

Also, if the price of V8F is higher than V8 right now, 16s would be the better choice? since the reason we choose V8 over 16s is mostly price :) 

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1 hour ago, Nic said:

The v8 with 20s3p battery pack upgrade has peak motor power of 2400W (30A) compared to 1600W (20A) with the standard pack, so powerful enough for safe relaxed riding at typical bicycle speeds

I'm not an electronics engineer, but I suspect your theory is incorrect. Since when can the engine power be increased by 50% if you increase from a 2P configuration to 3P?  :confused1:

Or did I misunderstand? 

Edited by buell47
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48 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I'm not an electronics engineer, but I suspect your theory is incorrect. Since when can the engine power be increased by 50% if you increase from a 2P configuration to 3P?  :confused1:

Or did I misunderstand? 

No I think you are correct.  The power advantage to 3P over 2P is less voltage sag on current demand.  It's possible the peak performance of the V8 is "voltage sag limited" but I absolutely have no idea.  I bet someone around here does.  Given that 4.2/3.1 => 40%, I don't think the peak power improvement could exceed that number, unless the control board is literally min voltage limited from a full charge, at which point is really bad for batteries, so I doubt that's the case.  Just drawing from my experience with r/c li-po batteries.

Edited by xorbe
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The V8 isn't motor-limited. It's battery limited.

2400W on a nominal 800W motor should be doable for a short time (which is all that may be needed to prevent overpowering the wheel), so 3p vs 2p really is a 50% improvement in available power/safety from overleaning.

But something else must be better with the V8F (battery cells? board firmware?) or they couldn't increase the speed with it still being a 2p wheel, I think.

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1 hour ago, buell47 said:

I'm not an electronics engineer, but I suspect your theory is incorrect. Since when can the engine power be increased by 50% if you increase from a 2P configuration to 3P?  :confused1:

Or did I misunderstand? 

The v8 motor is 800W (at 10A, 80v) and has a stated peak power of 1600W (at 20A, 80v) which is double the nominal value. The max continuous current rating for the MH1 cells is 10A, so for 2p configuration is 20A. By adding 50% more cells in parallel the max continuous current is now 30A and the nominal motor power becomes 1200W with 2400W peak. The only issue is that the motor would be easier to burn out if too much current goes through it for too long. I did notice that InMotion quote the peak power of the v8 can be as high as 2400W so it looks like 3p configuration is safe to use. I can't find the original reference for this, but the canadian InMotion website does say that with standard battery the peak power is 2000W, which is more than I read in another spec sheet that I can't find. These numbers are just estimates.

InMotion Canada - v8 page 2

Quote

Features of Inmotion V8 Electric Unicycle
Inmotions 800 W motor gives a maximum power output of approximately 2000 W thus enabling maximum speed of 18 to 19 mph with a maximum driving range of roughly 30 miles.

 

Edited by Nic
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That's not how it works.  You could put a 500p 5000A battery pack on the V8, but the controller only has 74 volts nominally to work with under load.  It can't magically force the electric motor to become more powerful.  You'll gain grunt where there was voltage sag before.  But to pony up the peak power, you need more voltage, or a motor with a more hungry winding/magnet configuration, with a controller that can feed it.  [Or a controller/firmware that pushes motor timing harder.]

Edited by xorbe
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19 minutes ago, Nic said:

By adding 50% more cells in parallel the max continuous current is now 30A and the nominal motor power becomes 1200W with 2400W peak.

I don't exactly follow how adding more battery cells in parallel changes the nominal motor power.

2p at 10A have a power of 1200 W @ 3.0V (3x20 x 2x10) and 1680 W @ 4.2V (4.2x20 x 2x10). I see no way how to get as low as 800 W battery power in the original V8 configuration.

Edited by Mono
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1 minute ago, xorbe said:

That's not how it works.  You could put a 500p 5000A battery pack on the V8, but the controller only has 74 volts nominally to work with under load.  It can't magically force the electric motor to become more powerful.  You'll gain grunt where there was voltage sag before.  But to pony up the peak power, you need more voltage, or a motor with a more hungry winding/magnet configuration.

Yes, but the controller in the v8 is the same one used in the v10, so it can supply the current necessary if the battery is up to the job. But you are correct that I am speculating.

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Just now, Nic said:

Yes, but the controller in the v8 is the same one used in the v10, so it can supply the current necessary if the battery is up to the job. But you are correct that I am speculating.

The controller does not "supply" the power.  The voltage does, as much as the motor will draw.  The controller just opens the gate.

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2 minutes ago, Mono said:

I don't exactly follow how adding more battery cells changes the nominal motor power.

2p at 10A have a power of 1200 W @ 3.0V and 1680 W @ 4.2V. I see no way how to get as low as 800 W battery power in the original V8 configuration.

I am just using InMotion specs for estimating as I am no expert on motors.

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