Popular Post mrelwood Posted October 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) CST C-186 Tire Review I've reached about 600km with this tire, so I'd say I have gotten past the honeymoon stage by now, warranting a real review on the tire. So, to help me overcome the most prominent issues of off-roading especially in the autumn, I wanted to try a tire on my MSX that would grip better on wet mud and roots yet handle reasonably well at up to 30mph on pavement without severe degradation in battery range. Despite some fit issues my previous tire ChaoYang H-666 18x3.0 (200km review) was a good step towards that direction, but I wanted to go even further for the wet autumn. Even better if the tire would make me feel safe enough to ride - even if slowly - in the snow. The Shinko SR241 is of a similiar design, but it would require shaving of the side knobbies to fit on the MSX. The C-186 had been fitted by another forum member without modifications. I bought the tire from a car and motorcycle tire webshop that only ships to Finland. The shop is owned by Delti, and they have multiple similiar tire shops in several European countries. Unfortunately this specific tire is not available in sizes that would fit any other EUC than the MSX. Tire sizing Motorcycle tire measurement standards differ from bicycle standards in both width and height. A 18x3.0" bicycle tire is about the same size as a 2.75-14 motorcycle tire, except any knobs or other protrusions to the side are not included in the measurement. That makes many knobby 2.75 motorcycles to scrape the MSX tire well. The side knobs can however be shaved to fit if necessary, but the C-186 may be able to run without modifications. Although, I sandpapered the shell edges a bit to make sure the tire wouldn't start scraping later on. Installing The C186 is an extremely soft tire, enough to be the softest tire of any kind that I’ve ever handled. (Well, RC car tires excluded). Besides providing a good grip in every riding situation, the softness should also makes the install process easier. I lubed the edges of the tire with dish washing liquid, and when squeezing the opposite end of the tire to the center groove of the rim, even the last part of the tire indeed popped in quite easily. As usual, the tire had deformed a little during transit, so I let it sit at 3.0 bars overnight before deflating and re-aligning the tire to run straight. After that the fit is decent, although with barely any space for mud, pebbles, pinecones and snow to pass through. This does make it noisier for the objects to go through the tire well, but so far they haven’t caused any issues. CST C-186 2.75-14 next to a standard 16x2.125 tire: Turning & Carving This tire carves very strangely. It has a delay to it’s tilting behaviour that I haven’t experienced with any other tire: When I start to lean into a turn, the wheel stays upright at first, but as I continue the turn, the wheel slowly starts to tilt. Once I ride straight again, the wheel stays tilted at first before slowly getting back in the upright position. This behaviour is immediately noticeable, and strong enough that it could be a show stopper for some people. I am hoping that the tendency would diminish a bit once the tire breaks in. I did notice that the behaviour is less pronounced already when dropping the pressure from 2.5 to 2.4 bars. (For reference: I used 2.7 bars with the original tire, and 2.5 for the H-666.) Due to this tilting behaviour I got my first pedal scrape on the MSX when trying tight 180• turns on pavement. It hasn’t turned out to be an issue though, as I think I have already learned to turn with the tire more effectively. Or more carefully, since I just can’t go as fast in corners as I was able to with the H-666. It was amazing in that regard. The ground resistance to the twisting motion is a lot smaller on this C-186 tire, so the wheel is easier to balance when idling or riding at sub walking speeds. Comfort Since this tire consists of squishy blobs of soft rubber, it is of course marvellously effective in dampening the shocks and vibration from rough ground, bumps and curbs. The carving behaviour is of course a notable factor in riding comfort, so I can’t give five stars for comfort. I have to assess my feelings in the spring, wether I’ll switch back to the H-666 for the summer season. Currently I’d say that I will not change it. I hadn’t really noticed the sound of the tire myself, but a friend noted after riding behind me that it makes a funny sound. A full-face helmet and wind seems to be enough to drown the sound at above 10mph. When I do hear it though, it sounds like an F1 race car! Traction Most of us know that wet mud is the #1 enemy when it comes to traction. The original ChaoYang H-5102 is the worst of them all, and my previous tire ChaoYang H-666 was a bit better than any other EUC tire I had experienced. The C-186 though? It is flat out immune! I have not been able to strip my three years of riding experience enough to push it on wet mud enough to have gotten even the slightest slip. It is unreal. I have even ridden across muddy 2 feet deep ditches with quite steep muddy inclines, and had zero issues with traction. And had to stop to laugh at it afterwards, it feels that crazy! As if I should forget everything I have learned about the laws of physics. All in all, this tire doesn’t care the slightest bit wether it’s on pavement, wet mud, moss, or anything in between. Unlike with all other tires, I’m not even able to feel which surface I’m riding on. It’s a surreal feeling! On extremely steep dirt and fine gravel inclines the soft knobbies make the tire bounce less, resulting in better traction. This makes even the Gotway soft mode usable for such environment, where a regular tire makes the soft mode dip enough to be a bit too unnerving. The grip on soft dirt is of course better as well, but the difference isn’t as radical as with wet mud, and I was once able to make the tire skid and sink while riding up an incline that was extremy steep, and the newly laid dirt was very soft and extremely bumpy due to stupid horse-back riders that are not even allowed on that trail. The possibilities this tire opens remains to be seen. But just like the MSX made it possible for me to ride without worrying about the little bumps and small obstacles, this tire takes it a lot further. I can now ride off-road in just a headlight short of pitch black with a decent speed without worrying about little rocks, bumps, or even puddles of wet mud. Range To my pleasant surprise the C-186 didn’t decrease the wheel’s range nearly as much as I would’ve expected, only by about 4% on the same 50/50 off-road/on-road trip. Which is exactly what I observed when comparing the medium and soft riding modes on the previous tire. So if you are running the original tire in medium mode, the C-186 in soft mode should offer a very similiar range. Conclusion This is a supernaturally magnificent tire for making the MSX the off-road beast that it can only dream of with the original tire. The only downside I can think of is the tilting behaviour, as it requires several hundred kilometres to get familiar with. I'm sure most of us can tolerate the behaviour though since it is otherwise such an eye-opening experience for trails and cliffs I would never have imagined riding on. I wish that all offroad EUC riders could experience what a tire like this can do, and how wholeheartedly it can reform one’s riding style and the level of confidence and trust that it inspires. 4/5, absolutely recommended! Edited October 16, 2019 by mrelwood Added ”Range” section. 29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie G. Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 omgoodness yes this is what I've been looking for and excellent review. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthieu Thegrey Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 I say huge thanks to @mrelwood for sharing that information. I would say for me that it even improved the nimbleness of the wheel at low speeds versus the original MSX tyre. And incredibly reassuring at high speed or in offroad. I could have lost a bit of range, but maybe just because i'm pushing the beast a bit more than before ?! And just been afraid while going over a kind of metal grid on the ground, where the tits liked to go in the holes and align suddenly But this wheel guys now... it's the ultimate wheel ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie G. Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: I say huge thanks to @mrelwood for sharing that information. I would say for me that it even improved the nimbleness of the wheel at low speeds versus the original MSX tyre. And incredibly reassuring at high speed or in offroad. I could have lost a bit of range, but maybe just because i'm pushing the beast a bit more than before ?! And just been afraid while going over a kind of metal grid on the ground, where the tits liked to go in the holes and align suddenly But this wheel guys now... it's the ultimate wheel ! This is the ultimate wheel!!!! I had to upgrade 5x to get this wheel. I kept wanting more and more power and speed. Edited October 15, 2019 by Eddie G. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted October 16, 2019 Author Share Posted October 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: I would say for me that it even improved the nimbleness of the wheel at low speeds versus the original MSX tyre. I find the effect in nimbleness to be twofold: The decreased resistance to twisting indeed allows for some very nimble manoeuvres, but on the other hand it doesn’t turn as effectively by tilting, requiring more tilt for the same amount of turn. A bit like how a narrower tire behaves. 6 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: And incredibly reassuring at high speed or in offroad. Exactly! 6 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: I could have lost a bit of range, but maybe just because i'm pushing the beast a bit more than before ?! Oh yes, forgot to write about the range. Added to the original post. 6 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said: But this wheel guys now... it's the ultimate wheel ! MSX with a C-186 does make for a beast of a machine, that’s for sure! I’m at loss wether I could ever downgrade to another wheel. Unless it can also fit the C-186 that is... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoCan Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 On 10/14/2019 at 6:49 PM, mrelwood said: When I start to lean into a turn, the wheel stays upright at first, but as I continue the turn, the wheel slowly starts to tilt. Once I ride straight again, the wheel stays tilted at first before slowly getting back in the upright position. Excellent review! I totally agree with all of your comments. I’m thinking I will return to the original tyre in Spring to regain the more responsive carving that this tyre cannot provide. I love the CST for all the reasons you’ve stated above and it will be a fun Winter that’s for sure. I’ve been experimenting again with the staggered stance which I had previously abandoned. I found it never added any additional acceleration or braking power, maybe because I’m 210lbs with big feet on stock pedals so never found this to be a problem. Anyway, I’ve come to appreciate this stance more with this tyre on the MSX. It really helps me “boss” it around which IMO is needed to speed up the delayed tilt you refer to. What have you had to change @mrelwood in your riding style to adjust to this beast? I’d be keen to hear your discoveries having covered a fair few Km’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted October 16, 2019 Author Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 hours ago, RoCan said: I’m thinking I will return to the original tyre in Spring to regain the more responsive carving that this tyre cannot provide. If you are going to swap between a winter and a summer tire, I strongly recommend you go through the trouble of installing the H-666 as the summer tire! Especially if carving is what you want to do. I never imagined going through corners on any EUC as fast as I could with that one. 2 hours ago, RoCan said: What have you had to change @mrelwood in your riding style to adjust to this beast? As you can see from the photos, I ride on those huge bigfoot pedal extensions, so I have no trouble throwing it around. Only thing that I think I will develop further is tight cornering. I do sometimes ride staggered, but that is to alleviate foot pain which I am prone to during long rides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippoPig Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Good call @mrelwood From a five minute ride - primary stability seems weaker than stock but there’s a ton of secondary stability. I’ll be taking it out for a longer ride during the week to give it a real test. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakPet Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Perfect tire. Thank you for pointing to the model 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Reitz Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I have the SR244 on my 100V MSX. It's actually 20.5" outer-diameter as it sits. I've gotten used to it with 400 miles on it, though I am tempted to switch to the CST C-186 in the spring. For winter I'm good with my SR244. So the good of the SR244 are the good traction like you describe. Its bad is the over-diameter and width that 1st made it such a PITA to install. Now having about 300 miles on it, I can say the wheel treats me like I'm heavier than I am and that the wind is stronger than it is making more commanding it for yet more speed is harder (adjust forward, etc). Its also slightly less torque'y and worse, less jerky (derivitive of acceleration) than before the change. My e+ is more jerky than the MSX so going smallest diameter with a knobby appears to me the best option... so now I'm shopping for a CST C-186! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 17 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said: My e+ is more jerky than the MSX so going smallest diameter with a knobby appears to me the best option... so now I'm shopping for a CST C-186! The large tire diameter means that you have to lean that much more for the same amount of ”pressing the gas pedal”. The MSX is the second largest wheel available, and it will always require a much steeper lean to keep up with the smaller EUCs. Increasing the pedal length in the same ratio (16.5”-> 20.5”) would even out the battlefield quite a bit. The C-186 is already notably larger than the original, so going from the Shinko to the C-186 would likely not give you what you wish. I would actually consider a 2.50-14 ”Minicross” tire, as it might be the smallest one you can find for an MSX. We recently installed one on @UniVehje’s 18XL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Reitz Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 8 hours ago, mrelwood said: The large tire diameter means that you have to lean that much more for the same amount of ”pressing the gas pedal”. The MSX is the second largest wheel available, and it will always require a much steeper lean to keep up with the smaller EUCs. Increasing the pedal length in the same ratio (16.5”-> 20.5”) would even out the battlefield quite a bit. The C-186 is already notably larger than the original, so going from the Shinko to the C-186 would likely not give you what you wish. I would actually consider a 2.50-14 ”Minicross” tire, as it might be the smallest one you can find for an MSX. We recently installed one on @UniVehje’s 18XL. Yes, exactly! So can you post here more info on the 2.50-14 tire? Will it fit my MSX? I love the SR244 knobby over the stock-street tire... and sometimes appreciate its cushy-squishy balloon-ness... thought the effect on torque as you seem to recognize makes a smaller knobby option worth trying... this winter in snow, and mud and mud in spring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 18 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said: Yes, exactly! So can you post here more info on the 2.50-14 tire? Will it fit my MSX? I’m certain that all 2.50-14 tires will fit on the MSX. In my understanding ”Minicross” is just a certain type or size of kids’ motocross bikes, and for example a local second hand sales portal even has many unmounted 2.50-14 Minicross tires for sale for very cheap. All with the exact same knob pattern even. What I didn’t like about the used one I got was that it required a lot more active style of riding on faster stretches of pavement. I love that on the regular tires (and pretty much on the C-186 as well) I can relax at speed as the MSX will be very stable and doesn’t care if I move around to stretch my feet or even change my position a bit. I wasn’t able to do that on the specific Minicross tire, since the placement of the rows of knobbies left an empty area next to the row of the sidemost knobs, so it behaved like a much narrower tire. I would check if you can find a Minicross tire that has a more uniform pattern of knobbies. If you do, it would surely be a nicer ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Has anyone discovered how to get a C-186 tire in the US? Thx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippoPig Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I’ve swapped back to the OG tyre last night. Probably going to order the h-666 for next year. the knobbly tyre just removed a little of the fun and loose-ness of the riding for me. super easy to swap out on an MSX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 9 hours ago, HippoPig said: I’ve swapped back to the OG tyre last night. I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work for you, but I do understand why. I’m at a point where riding the C-186 is very natural, but there are rare occasions where I miss the H-666. The carving on that tire was perfect for me. After seeing a video of @EUC Extreme making a knobby tire out of a H-666, I might try that after the winter as well. Not as radical though, just small cuts in the center ridge to have it grab slightly better in extreme conditions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippoPig Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 On 11/18/2019 at 10:07 PM, mrelwood said: I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work for you, but I do understand why. I’m at a point where riding the C-186 is very natural, but there are rare occasions where I miss the H-666. The carving on that tire was perfect for me. After seeing a video of @EUC Extreme making a knobby tire out of a H-666, I might try that after the winter as well. Not as radical though, just small cuts in the center ridge to have it grab slightly better in extreme conditions. It was pretty amazing on wet mud etc - but I’ve found I don’t ride it on that sort of surface / in that sort of weather enough to justify the loss of fun carving. I carve constantly when riding in a straight line, and though it was carve-able - the roll wasn’t quite so linear which I missed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) I just made 10km with C-186. At 1.5 bar it feels pretty much exactly like stock on pavement when it comes to riding and turning. But dampens more. EDIT: It's definitely easier to turn this tire than with stock. Also, I think that the turning radius decreased somewhat.I don't carve hard, and I didn't see any difference there. But that's probably because of my riding style - slow and careful. On a smooth pavement it felt like flying, not riding. It definitely grips way more! With stock I had to aim at the center of puddles not to slip. With this one it's not that important, it grips the sides way better. At 1 bar it jerks randomly right-left - very annoying. Thankfully increasing the pressure helped. I definitely consider this tire an upgrade for anyone who off-roads. Does anyone know why is Gotway selling such a slippery tire by default? Edited November 21, 2019 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 CST C-186 2.75-14 I want one but I can't find one @Jason McNeil : any suggestions about how to inquire to the Chinese distributors about supplying this tire to the US? (Or, I would gladly pay a markup if EWheels could make the buying process easy by expediting it ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) @RagingGrandpa Please ask the seller if he'll ship to the US: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tyre-Cst-Cheng-Shin-2-75-14-35P-Tt-C-186-Enduro-72630851/274015311737?hash=item3fcc95d779:g:no0AAOSwTg5dx1lW#shpCntId Alternatively, I could buy and ship them to the US... But that's a last resort due to a double shipping fee. Ps. It's nice to have something unavailable in the US for a change... Usually it's the other way around. Edited November 21, 2019 by atdlzpae 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, atdlzpae said: Please ask the seller if he'll ship to the US: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274015311737 Thanks It's this store: https://www.motorrad-ersatzteile24.de/motorrad-zubehoer/nach-baugruppe/reifen-und-felgen/reifen/reifen-14-zoll/reifen-14-zoll-2.xx/74830/reifen-cst/cheng-shin-2.75-14-35p-tt-c-186-enduro Ebay message inbox full The web store doesn't show the US (Ver...) or Canada (Kan...) in their country list when I attempt to check out, so I'm betting the answer is "no"... But actually, I can call in a favor from a neighbor who's visiting the fatherland over holidays, good thought, thanks for the link. There's got to be more than one of me here in the US though... lots of MSX owners would love a cheap dirt tire that doesn't require trimming... Edited November 21, 2019 by RagingGrandpa typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 64.86€ ??? Holy shit, that's expensive. On ebay.de it goes for 35€ with free shipping across Europe. Ask this seller, it's a different one: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Enduro-Reifen-CST-C-186-2-75-14-35P-4PR/283599111384?epid=1725420867&hash=item4207d304d8:g:oDsAAOSwzttdxJ51 I actually bought from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 12 hours ago, atdlzpae said: I just made 10km with C-186. At 1.5 bar *shrugs* You might want to put some air in there! Any tire will eventually rip if it flexes too much. I like a softish tire myself but I’d consider 1.5 bars suitable for just trollying the wheel without a rider... I weigh 100kg and I settled at 2.4 bars. 2.2 is passable for me but already quite soft. Maybe try 2.0 bars if you are a light rider? 12 hours ago, atdlzpae said: Does anyone know why is Gotway selling such a slippery tire by default? I guess it doesn’t rain in China. 18x3.0 is a rare size for (e-)bike tires, and there still aren’t many choices available. C-186 is a full-blown motorcycle tire and not the best universal choice imo. H-666 would’ve been a killer though, and it is available in 18x3.0. Could be that the width would’ve required extra work with the shell design. Or it would’ve cost $1 more. Or maybe they just didn’t test the original very thoroughly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mrelwood said: *shrugs* You might want to put some air in there! Any tire will eventually rip if it flexes too much. I'll make it an experiment for now. If it rips and I faceplant, it (hopefully) won't kill me. My MSX has a mileage of 2200km. Pressure is 1.5bar. My weight is 120kg. I'll report when it rips. Edited November 22, 2019 by atdlzpae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted November 23, 2019 Author Share Posted November 23, 2019 18 hours ago, atdlzpae said: I'll make it an experiment for now. If it rips and I faceplant, it (hopefully) won't kill me. My MSX has a mileage of 2200km. Pressure is 1.5bar. My weight is 120kg. I'll report when it rips. Wow... That is a kind of a risk I'd never take while riding. You are lucky that you haven't bent the rim from an unnoticed rock or a pothole, or even lost control of the wheel in a surprise situation. Just the other day a Z10 owner found his tire being torn beyond repair due to riding with too little pressure, that's why I mentioned it. If you ever want to learn to reverse or pendulum, you may want to end your "experiment"... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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